Thread: Formula 1 2012

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  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Coffer View Post
    I don't think this really pertains to what Perez did (since he genuinely got knocked out), though it would certainly apply to those that willingly refuse to compete in, say, Q3. If it were by me I'd just remove the "top ten start on the tyres they qualified on" rule. If you're not quick enough to make it to the top ten, why should you get an advantage?
    Yeah, I think it is actually more of an advantage to be classified 11th instead of 8-10th. Either everybody starts on the tyre they qualifed on, or everybody can choose freely. If it rains in qualifying that rule is suspended anyway.

    And it was aimed at the tactical withdrawals from qualifying to be able to choose the tyre, I can remember a couple of occasions last year when nearly half the top ten didn't run in Q3.
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  2. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Yeah, I think it is actually more of an advantage to be classified 11th instead of 8-10th.
    Especially if those P8-P10 starters are still forced to do the same runs as usual. Alonso, for example, still pushed despite his rear anti-roll bar failure in Q3. Who knows where he might've gotten if Ferrari had decided not to have him run in Q3 after discovering the problematic part at the start of the session. I strongly believe that he would've beaten Perez if that had happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Either everybody starts on the tyre they qualifed on, or everybody can choose freely. If it rains in qualifying that rule is suspended anyway.

    And it was aimed at the tactical withdrawals from qualifying to be able to choose the tyre, I can remember a couple of occasions last year when nearly half the top ten didn't run in Q3.
    Yeah, I side with you on that.

  3. #343
    Stood in the Fire Rivenda's Avatar
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    Lewis is back on track. What a shame what happened to Jenson.. But the champions is really open now! Monza was one of the best races this season imo. Looking forward to F1 weekend again!
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  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivenda View Post
    Lewis is back on track. What a shame what happened to Jenson.. But the champions is really open now! Monza was one of the best races this season imo. Looking forward to F1 weekend again!
    Hamilton definitely has the biggest chance of the #2-#4 guys to take this (and has been, imo, the best driver so far this season), but Alonso needs to stop lucking out in order for that to happen.

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffer View Post
    Hamilton definitely has the biggest chance of the #2-#4 guys to take this (and has been, imo, the best driver so far this season), but Alonso needs to stop lucking out in order for that to happen.
    Some people say you make your own luck, Alonso has done so well on merit, dragging that Ferrari around.
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  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Some people say you make your own luck.
    I bring you 2007 and 2010. This guy literally lives on luck. Hamilton and Raikkonen grossly outperformed him in 2007, yet he somehow only lost the title by one point. 2010 was even worse. It's not even just the fact that he had the best car (and a bulletproof one at that!) after Silverstone - he benefitted the most from Vettel/Hamilton's misfortune, and by a long shot too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Alonso has done so well on merit, dragging that Ferrari around.
    Why are people still trying to excuse him by saying that the car is bad? It's not. It's the best on the grid. Even at the start of the season he had the second best car (tied with Red Bull), he just missed Q3 in Australia due to a mistake.

    He should not be leading the championship. And this is coming from a tifosi and one of the few people who actually respects him for screwing McLaren over in 2007.

    If anything Ferrari should be praised for taking the car from being strong yet difficult to drive (just look at Massa), to pretty much the strongest in every department aside from top speed (and even there they're demolishing Red Bull). And that's in the dry. We all know what happened in the rain. Newey's "genius", Renault's alternators and McLaren's pit crew accounted to Alonso's lead far more than the Spaniard's own genius. He's good, but not that good.
    Last edited by Coffer; 2012-09-11 at 12:55 AM.

  7. #347
    The Lightbringer Bigbazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffer View Post
    I bring you 2007 and 2010. This guy literally lives on luck. Hamilton and Raikkonen grossly outperformed him in 2007, yet he somehow only lost the title by one point. 2010 was even worse. It's not even just the fact that he had the best car (and a bulletproof one at that!) after Silverstone - he benefitted the most from Vettel/Hamilton's misfortune, and by a long shot too.



    Why are people still trying to excuse him by saying that the car is bad? It's not. It's the best on the grid. Even at the start of the season he had the second best car (tied with Red Bull), he just missed Q3 in Australia due to a mistake.

    He should not be leading the championship. And this is coming from a tifosi and one of the few people who actually respect him for screwing McLaren over in 2007. If anything Ferrari should be praised for taking the car from being strong yet difficult to drive (just look at Massa), to pretty much the strongest in every department. And that's in the dry. We all know what happened in the rain.
    What gave you the idea that the Ferrari was the best car for the 2nd half of 2010? I'm not sure if we were watching the same season. The Red Bull was by far the best car for the whole season when it wasnt breaking down. Fernando in 2012 has done things that we would just never expect from a driver.

    The Ferrari a fast car in 2012?

    Mclaren, Red Bull, Sauber, Lotus and occasionally the Mercedes and Williams cars have been faster than the Ferrari. Sure they had a fast car for Monza, but thats Monza.. they always put in extra for Monza and it's a really low downforce track completely different to everything else run all year around. Schumacher is only just behind Massa in points, yet Schumacher has had a year of watching his car litterally fall apart from race to race, Massa has low points simply based on lack of speed from himself and the Ferrari. Massa isn't a particularely good driver, but also not a particularely bad driver, looking at the performance of all teams this year it simply points to Alonso being the biggest factor in the success of Ferrari, he is getting the maximum out of almost every situation, no other driver has even come close to this level of consistancy.


    I'm not a Ferrari or Alonso fan, I like Mclaren and I'm a Jenson Button/Schumacher fan. Until 2012 I really didn't like Alonso due to his attitude, but for what I have seen him do with his driving over the years, in a car that isn't the fastest... I really respect his skills. Alonso is the best driver in the world at the moment, maybe not the fastest but the best and if you look around there would not be many (if any) people in the F1 paddock that would disagree.

    I think he will win the championship, but I hope that he doesn't.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2012-09-11 at 01:05 AM.
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  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    What gave you the idea that the Ferrari was the best car for the 2nd half of 2010? I'm not sure if we were watching the same season. The Red Bull was by far the best car for the whole season when it wasnt breaking down.
    After Silverstone the RB6 was matched by the F10. An utterly bulletproof F10. F1Fanatic has something on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    The Ferrari a fast car in 2012?
    Not just a fast one. The fastest. No, the outright best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Mclaren
    Second best. Even in Monza Hamilton admitted that he was surprised to take pole. In Spa Massa couldn't do anything against Hulkenberg and Alonso was knocked out by Grosjean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Red Bull
    The Red Bull hasn't been the fastest car at any circuit this season. Webber only won in Monaco because Rosberg couldn't find a way past him (heyooooo, it's Monabore, the most difficult circuit to overtake on), Vettel won in Bahrain thanks to the clean air and Raikkonen's mistake (Lotus had the best car there) and the clean air that he had in Europe helped him out a lot before the alternator failure, whereas Webber couldn't even find a way past Schumacher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Sauber
    Only at Monza, and even there they had no qualifying pace and had to rely on the oh-so-cheeky P1x-P2 rise. Getting knocked out in Q2 seems to help quite a lot. Vettel, Alonso, Kobayashi, Perez all proved that. Ferrari had the best car in Malaysia's torrential downpour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Lotus
    Only in Bahrain and Hungary. I'll give you this one though, because I strongly believe that Alonso outperformed Raikkonen thus far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Mercedes
    Are you actually serious? China is the only time where they shined, and even there Rosberg hit the cliff at the end and would've lost if it wasn't for Hamilton's penalty and Button's botched stop. Alonso and Massa would've finished very high up if it wasn't for a mistake in the former's case (it didn't cost him a lot of time but it still cost him 3 positions) and Di Resta in the latter's (Force India's top speed was the highest on that circuit and Massa needed to get past him in order to make his (already faulty) strategy work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Williams
    Are you basing this off of Maldonado's win? 'cause Alonso had a better car in Spain but he shot his tyres while chasing the Venezuelan, and he also made the mistake that Hamilton would go on to make in Monaco - he forgot to push after the pits. It cost him the lead even after Williams botched Pastor's stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Sure they had a fast car for Monza, but thats Monza.. they always put in extra for Monza and it's a really low downforce track completely different to everything else run all year around.
    Monza was actually the exception to the rule. Pat Fry said that the car's surprisingly bad performance on race day (chewing through the tyres) was alarming, and Alonso suffered damage after Vettel's push, which arguably cost him 2nd. Massa was just bad - even without accounting for the loss of telemetry he lost .3/.4s per lap in the first sector and he hit the cliff at the end, which almost allowed Raikkonen and Schumacher to beat him.

    And considering that Alonso and Massa were on top in the practice sessions, both in the long stints and on the actual charts, the car's performance on race day (even before Alonso suffered that damage) is quite baffling. No wonder even Pat Fry was caught off-guard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Until 2012 I really didn't like Alonso due to his attitude
    That's the thing. Where were you people before 2012? He's always been like this, it's just that his so-called "betrayal" in 2007 (which is entirely Ron Dennis' fault) and his lack of a Twitter account made him look bad in people's eyes.
    Last edited by Coffer; 2012-09-11 at 01:18 AM.

  9. #349
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    I'm sorry coffer but I think you must be living in your own little coffer planet based on your replies, and it also seems like you don't really understand my post or what I've said before you replied to it. To sum up the end of your post, I already said that I am not an Alonso fan and in the past didn't like him due to his attitude, but that he has won over my respect due to his exceptional driving skills this year, that doesn't mean that I like him now.

    Ferrari has been slow all year, Fernando has made the most of the situations at hand, other teams/drivers have not. Williams have had a fast car all year, if Maldonado didn't keep crashing into people he would have a lot of points, his actual pace has been fantastic since Australia. Mercedes have been there or abouts all year, If Michaels car didn't break so often then both he and Rosberg would be far ahead of Massa, even with his car issues Michael is only 4 points behind. You already contradicted yourself about Mercedes when you mentioned Red Bull at Monaco, where Michael got pole position and Rosberg finished 2nd.

    if Alonso was not in the car and some other second rate driver like Massa was there then they would be nowhere in the championship. Ferrari have had a car just fast enough to fight near the front and Alonso has taken every situation and made the most out of it, other drivers have been up and down like a yoyo allowing him to slip forward regardless of his slower car. That consistancy is what makes him the best driver.

    Unless you didn't notice, Mclaren has the most ammount of pole positions and wins. The last 3 races were won by Mclaren from pole position in dominant victories.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2012-09-11 at 02:06 AM.
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  10. #350
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    To be fair, as soon as you mentioned Mercedes and Williams you lost all credibility. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. What next, are you going to say that Ferrari had the best car in 2003?

  11. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffer View Post
    To be fair, as soon as you mentioned Mercedes and Williams you lost all credibility. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. What next, are you going to say that Ferrari had the best car in 2003?
    Schumacher 2012 Qualifying -

    1st x1
    2nd x1
    3rd x3
    4th x 2

    Rosberg has also qualified 1st and 2nd. Alonso qualified on pole twice in the rain (a sign of driver skill, not typical car speed), other than a 2nd and a 3rd his qualifying otherwise has been no better than Schumacher. As for massa he has only been in Q3 5 times, with a season best of 3rd thanks to Alonso's broken car. Maldonado at Williams on the other hand has been in Q3 7 times, including a pole position in the dry, and a 3rd place.

    That particular pole position of Maldonado had Alonso qualifying behind in 2nd, which also happened to be Alonso's best dry qualifying of the year, where Alonso also finished in 2nd behind Maldonado. Lewis Hamilton was however the fastest driver, but had his lap disqualifed and sent to the back of the grid, he still finished 8th.




    Don't talk about credibility if you're just going to throw your Ferrari tifosi nonsense at me and completely ignore the facts as you brush them aside.
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  12. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by Coffer View Post
    To be fair, as soon as you mentioned Mercedes and Williams you lost all credibility. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. What next, are you going to say that Ferrari had the best car in 2003?
    Stop arguing, seriously.. To say that Ferrari is and was the best car in this season is just retarded. It seems like you're looking at Alonso's scores not at actual races. The reason why Alonso is at the top is NOT the car.

    The only time Ferrari was on par with Mclaren or Red bull in the qualifyings was in Monza.

  13. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kebab View Post
    Stop arguing, seriously.. To say that Ferrari is and was the best car in this season is just retarded. It seems like you're looking at Alonso's scores not at actual races. The reason why Alonso is at the top is NOT the car.

    The only time Ferrari was on par with Mclaren or Red bull in the qualifyings was in Monza.
    I'm starting to think that you people are genuinely out of it. Have none of you watched any practice sessions this year? Or even qualifying? Or at least the lap charts that are always posted on F1Fanatic? It's like you're going out of your way to make sure that you're uninformed.
    Last edited by Coffer; 2012-09-11 at 06:43 PM.

  14. #354
    The Lightbringer Bigbazz's Avatar
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    Another dominant qualifying from Hamilton, with another great performance from Williams Maldonado in 2nd, tomorrow should be in interesting race. To further my point earlier in the thread, that is now 4 pole positions in a row from Mclaren and Ferrari has shown they aren't quite on the same pace.

    Front row qualifying times so far in the season (1st or 2nd).

    Mclaren : 12
    Red Bull : 6
    Mercedes : 4 (Including Schumachers Monaco time, though he got penalty from previous race the lap was valid)
    Ferrari : 3
    Williams : 2
    Lotus : 1
    Sauber : 1

    Looking at that doesn't exactly point to the Ferrari being a fast qualifying car, especially given that 2 of those were in the rain. Mclaren were also fastest in spain, but had the time DQ, but that would have made 13. I fail to see how I am in any way "uninformed" by looking at the facts and merely stating them. The facts show what I have been saying all along.


    Still hard to call this championship, looking forward to tomorrows race very much.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2012-09-22 at 11:50 PM.
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  16. #356
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    Was a good race, shocked at Lewis' gearbox failure, always enjoy that GP. Will be interesting to see if McLaren can dominate the next few races, they look like they can but it will be interesting none the less.

  17. #357
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    Suzuka just about to happen, one of the best tracks/races of the season! Where has the F1 buzz gone? Its almost 7am, I'm up and I'm pumped, can't wait!
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  18. #358
    Alonso out. Spices up the championship competition even further :O
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  19. #359
    I am Murloc! Thallidomaniac's Avatar
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    And Alonso is out. Do I smell him choking away this championship?

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  20. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thallidomaniac View Post
    And Alonso is out. Do I smell him choking away this championship?
    I certainly hope so, Button all the way!

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