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  1. #1241
    I just started PvEing on mine, been 100% tPvP before that.

  2. #1242
    Quote Originally Posted by Arajal View Post
    But when those effects cause a good chunk of damage, well...

    Sigils of Air and Sigils of Fire say hi.
    Are those sigils a common tactic among warriors? I always assumed they went for something like Bloodlust.

    I'm really curious now because I think a build centered around proccing sigils (if they're powerful enough) could be really fun. I had an Amazon in D2 with almost all 'chance to proc' gear and it was not only an effective build, but a lot of fun watching all those extra spells go off all the time.

  3. #1243
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    Are those sigils a common tactic among warriors? I always assumed they went for something like Bloodlust.

    I'm really curious now because I think a build centered around proccing sigils (if they're powerful enough) could be really fun. I had an Amazon in D2 with almost all 'chance to proc' gear and it was not only an effective build, but a lot of fun watching all those extra spells go off all the time.
    They're a common line for all dps specs. Simple reason being there aren't enough ways of dealing extra damage from somewhere else.

    It does depend on a couple of things though.
    => Is it a weapon for a specific dungeon (cof with +10 vs flame legion) since then it's not worth it
    => Is it for quick fights or long fights (on long fights 2k dmg is very little (air proc) in comparison to for instance +5% dmg)
    => Do I dual wield or not, in general +5/10% dmg is better since it scales really well with power/crit dmg so those are a better alternative

    People who min/max won't be running around with sigils of air or fire. Usually +x%dmg works out better. Some classes/builds can use stuff like "of strength" or "of blood". Do note that neither of does will increase your dps as much as "force"
    The best "on crit" sigil is probably fire since it does 700dmg to all foes which is pretty amasing on "non-aoe" weapons.

    For reference I did the math:
    +5% dmg sigil(force) makes my skills hit for about 150more dmg (full berserker/glass build) Lightning strike (sigil of air) does about 1.2k dmg. So it takes me 8hits to do that dmg with force.
    Air has an internal cd while force doesn't. Meaning that if it "procs" 3swings in a row only 1 will count. The chance of this happening goes up the faster you attack meaning that "haste" makes force even better.
    If you consider "fast attacks" like flurry or oh axe 5, the same principal is important.

    TLDR: air/fire/... are used a lot but hardly ever are "bis", especially air and fire.

  4. #1244
    I run air on my rifle and fire on my greatsword to play to their strengths (single-target and AoE, respectively). Much as Meledelion explained, they're not the best for DPS, but they do have a place. I primarily got them for the cool effects and the straight damage boost they provide, but if I cared about min-maxing as much in this game as I did in WoW, I'd have likely gone for something like Force or Bloodlust.

  5. #1245
    Quote Originally Posted by Arajal View Post
    I run air on my rifle and fire on my greatsword to play to their strengths (single-target and AoE, respectively). Much as Meledelion explained, they're not the best for DPS, but they do have a place. I primarily got them for the cool effects and the straight damage boost they provide, but if I cared about min-maxing as much in this game as I did in WoW, I'd have likely gone for something like Force or Bloodlust.
    Get another weapon put BL on it, switch to your real weapon when at 25stacks

  6. #1246
    Yeah yeah, I know about that trick. But again, I don't min-max in GW2.

  7. #1247
    I mostly just do outside world stuff like map completion and DEs. Whenever I do get around to dungeons it'll probably just be to see the story parts and maybe grind out any vanity gear that catches my eye, so nothing too serious. I think my warrior's still wearing level 80 "berserker" greens. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Get another weapon put BL on it, switch to your real weapon when at 25stacks
    Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

  8. #1248
    For high crit chance builds, (those that have 75-80%) Proc sigils like fire and lightning do deal a bit of extra damage.
    However, it can heavily depends on your set up and what your build is trying to do. I have found a nice combo in chance to add vul, and chance to add might. with other factors you can keep 15 self stacks of might and 15 vul on the target, not bad for solo play.

    My common build though only runs 65 crit chance, so i run the 5% more crit chance and bloodlust, if 10 stacks can be maintained it will out damage what you would gain from fire (minus the AoE but everything on a warrior hits multiple things except the rifle) and if 22 stacks can be maintianed youll out damage what would be gained form lightning. Its based on how good you are at surviving sure and you have to build up to it sure. but once there it is a constant not a variable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Plz show me your spreadsheets.
    5. You think critting for 5k is awesome, I normal hit for 7.4k with autoattacks.
    Some people are too pro.

  9. #1249
    I have a fun little glass build I use here and there focused around maintaining a capped stack of 25 might for as long as possible as often as possible. When everything's up and running, I get a good amount of use from my fire sigil, with the 62% or so crit chance proc'ing it all over the place. It's especially fun using Whirling Blade into a large group of squishy targets (e.g. risen Asura gauntlet in CoE) and seeing them all burn in explosions of fiery death every few seconds.

    Unfortunately, I am fairly squishy myself in said build.

  10. #1250
    Quote Originally Posted by Dempsey View Post
    For high crit chance builds, (those that have 75-80%)

    My common build though only runs 65 crit chance, so i run the 5% more crit chance and bloodlust.
    Is this with or without fury?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arajal View Post
    I have a fun little glass build I use here and there focused around maintaining a capped stack of 25 might for as long as possible as often as possible. When everything's up and running, I get a good amount of use from my fire sigil, with the 62% or so crit chance proc'ing it all over the place. It's especially fun using Whirling Blade into a large group of squishy targets (e.g. risen Asura gauntlet in CoE) and seeing them all burn in explosions of fiery death every few seconds.

    Unfortunately, I am fairly squishy myself in said build.
    As I said previously, this is wrong. You'll do more damage with "force". If HB does 25k dmg, adding force would mean you now do 1250dmg more while fire only does something around 600-700dmg.

  11. #1251
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    As I said previously, this is wrong. You'll do more damage with "force". If HB does 25k dmg, adding force would mean you now do 1250dmg more while fire only does something around 600-700dmg.
    It's not wrong if I'm not min-maxing (I have already stated that I am not doing such in GW2). I know Sigil of Force is the best option for DPS, but I don't use it because flat increases to damage are boring. Causing mobs to explode in a fiery hellstorm is far more entertaining than seeing (somewhat) bigger numbers.

  12. #1252
    I know you said it before but if people read your second comment alone they might get the impression that you say fire>= force, which is why I had to state it again.

    (And yea massive exploding fire circles are fun to watch )

  13. #1253
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    I know you said it before but if people read your second comment alone they might get the impression that you say fire>= force, which is why I had to state it again.
    Ah, fair enough.

  14. #1254
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Is this with or without fury?


    As I said previously, this is wrong. You'll do more damage with "force". If HB does 25k dmg, adding force would mean you now do 1250dmg more while fire only does something around 600-700dmg.
    1.) with fury, I run about 3600 attack 67% cirt chance at max, 93 crit damage and 3k armor, the high armor I have made me sacrifice about 14-16% crit chance but I am rather tanky and still deal great damage so it makes duels in WvW rather easy, especially against thieves and gs warriors XD lol
    2.) Is unfortunately wrong, any damage +%'s like sigil of force or beserkers might don't make the actual attack deal more damage the math is actually (power X Damage%)+(power after modifiers i.e. signet of might/banner of strength sigil of bloodlust)+(average weapon damage)= attack damage
    mine for instance would be (2285x17%{sigil of force and beserkers might})+(2375{2625 with maxed sigil of bloodlust})+978=3741.45 (3991.45 with maxed sigil of bloodlust)which then is used to scale the damage of the weapons attack which is usually some ratio that.
    for gs 100b that dealt 25k you would probably only see a 600-700 damage increase. but then again if you're only doing 25k with 3800+attack you need crit chance not straight damage.
    TLR the argument of force vs fire is a bit wrong, as fire will do about as much damage to each target and hit more targets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Plz show me your spreadsheets.
    5. You think critting for 5k is awesome, I normal hit for 7.4k with autoattacks.
    Some people are too pro.

  15. #1255
    Do you have a source for your algorithm? This is the first time I come across it and I've visited quite some forums regarding min-maxing.
    Quote Originally Posted by wiki
    Other various passive effects that increase the attacker's outgoing damage or a target's incoming damage, including those from upgrade components, traits, nourishment, etc
    I'll test it once I have acces to my home PC again though.

    If I understand it right you're saying that the actual formula isn't what wiki lists ((dmg = weapon dmg*power*skill specifc coefficient)/armor)
    but that it is: dmg = (weapon dmg * (power*1,dmg coefficient)* skill specific coefficient)/armor)

    The reason I find this odd is due to it being a power(might) coefficient then and this would make it affect condition damage, which isn't the case.
    (and now I'm wondering if it's affect or effect...)
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2013-01-26 at 11:12 PM.

  16. #1256
    well the wiki is made from various sources, I am sure the work is checked by the community.
    I first came across this after making a post on my warriors build where I calculated the attack gained from beserkers might and the gw2guru.com community corrected my math stating that the damage modifiers such as force and beserkers might are based off of power. and explained it the way I did.
    However if I am wrong I am sorry but it still remains that a 25k 100b would not do 26250 with a sigil of force, and that was my basic point.
    Also i believe the context would be effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Plz show me your spreadsheets.
    5. You think critting for 5k is awesome, I normal hit for 7.4k with autoattacks.
    Some people are too pro.

  17. #1257
    I'm not saying you're wrong nor am I saying that I'm right. I'm saying that your math can be right but I simply would like to know where it comes from. And as you said, it would influence power,the issue with this would be that this should be noticeable when you have conditions running (which would be weird since people have been nagging since beta that +% dmg favors direct damage over conditions) and it isn't.

    25000*0.05(5% or 5/100) = 1250 => 1 250+25 000 = 26 250

    I've been browsing the internet for a while and I haven't come across your formula yet. So far in all threads I've raid it's force>air(single target which is the case 90%of the time)>fire. Although air does more dmg single target than force, force wins due to it having effect on cleave damage and being "controllable" (the mob you want to target will be hit by it and not the mob that standing behind your target, technically it is but I mean both are instead of one...

    Edit again:
    The only data I found all seem to indicate that sigil of force (5%dmg) indeed does 5% dmg at the end of the calculation and not as you had listed.
    Some numbers:
    110 without 115 with (lb ranger)
    96 without 101 with (axe ranger)
    I also found someone stating the DR of crit which is indeed 60 (ish) % as I've been tossing around
    Last edited by Meledelion; 2013-01-27 at 12:29 AM.

  18. #1258
    Well there is only a pseudo diminishing return to critical damage and that's because its only comparable stat is power.
    So really if you where to run around with say 2000 attack and 80 critical damage your efficiency would be low, because you could sacrifice critical damage to gain more power, thus making the hits you do not critical do more damage while the hits you do critical would have a greater base damage for the critical damage to work off of.
    On the opposite side if you have 3800 attack and 20 critical damage your non criticals will hit hard while your critical hits would only hit a little harder than your normals and since they only hit slightly harder and you were running 80% critical chance lets say you would pretty much be wasting the stats in precision and critical damage.
    So builds that have 36-7-800 attack and 100 critical damage are going to be be hitting the hardest at all times as the have the best base hits, and that base being the best makes the critical damage more efficient. Meaning that while running around with 3600+ attack and 90+ critical damage the defining factor becomes precision and how much of a chance that the critical damage is going to be used.
    IIRC every 1% of crit damage is like 7 points of power, finding the balance in these with crit chance in your build is what makes them either useful or unuseful.
    Really if you break down each stat the only stat that has DR is toughness. Now that doesn't mean that vit is better because the graph for damage absorbing between the 2 is an awkward looking roller coaster so the safest bet is to find a health balance between the 2.

    I will test a sigil of force today and see how it acts, my average crit is 2500-3200 (Depending on how many vulnerability stacks i put on) so if what you found is true i should be hitting for 2600-3300 which is better then bloodlust, as I like no one can stay up 100% of the time so the static increase would be much better.

    As far as I knew the +% modifiers for condition damage are the duration increases, everyone just likes seeing the big numbers and they carry that mind set to condition builds and get disappointed.
    Last edited by Dempsey; 2013-01-28 at 02:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Meledelion View Post
    Plz show me your spreadsheets.
    5. You think critting for 5k is awesome, I normal hit for 7.4k with autoattacks.
    Some people are too pro.

  19. #1259
    Quote Originally Posted by Dempsey View Post
    As far as I knew the +% modifiers for condition damage are the duration increases, everyone just likes seeing the big numbers and they carry that mind set to condition builds and get disappointed.
    I think the biggest issue (or at least one of the big issues) people have found with condition builds is the fact that they lose a lot of power in group situations, where many people are applying the same condition. While I can't speak with certainty about Poison or Burning, I know for a fact that Bleed suffers a lot in said situations due to the cap of 25 stacks. Once that stack has reached its cap, it will continue to do the same amount of damage regardless of the number of people still applying the condition. It's part of the reason I don't use my sword(s) in groups unless I notice a sever lack of bleeds on targets.

  20. #1260
    Quote Originally Posted by Arajal View Post
    I think the biggest issue (or at least one of the big issues) people have found with condition builds is the fact that they lose a lot of power in group situations, where many people are applying the same condition. While I can't speak with certainty about Poison or Burning, I know for a fact that Bleed suffers a lot in said situations due to the cap of 25 stacks.
    Poison and Burning suffer even worse as they only stack duration and a character speccing conditions can easily keep full uptime on those. Eg. a thief using poison abilities will easily keep several mobs poisoned permanently which means another character using poison in the same group is completely useless. And it gets even worse because lots of characters can poison or burn mobs close to permanently even when they're not condition specced, eg. most thieves use a shortbow as a ranged swap weapon and it gives you a spammable poison aoe field.

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