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  1. #41
    Solution: Bring back 25 man only.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by kazih View Post
    Blizzard implemented death of 25 mans at the end of wotlk, why would they suddenly change direction?
    It was a player problem, not anything blizzard did
    Players took the route of less resistance, the format they found easier.
    It was done by players, and by players only.

  3. #43
    Pandaren Monk Agent Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brett Skullcrack View Post
    Different raid instances for 10 and 25 mans.
    I don't like this idea because I enjoy raiding with friends and we don't have 25 of us that play.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by smeegoan2later View Post
    Thank you, and AMEN!

    really I'm thinking the people crying were ones who started out on a low pop noobie server in wrath, or took a free transfer when there were que times on higher pop realms, now are stuck on dead servers.

    Cough up the 25 bucks or whatever and get on a decent realm.

    http://www.wowprogress.com/realms/ra...ting.tier13_25

    It doesn't even have to be top 20, i'm clicking through the rankings in the 80s and am finding decent servers, some with good progression.
    Many of those guilds are dead. If you look at Arthas the server looks decent but then you notice that half the listed 25m guilds have died in the last 2 months. I expect that many servers are like this.

  5. #45
    Herald of the Titans Adramalech's Avatar
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    So basically, before we had 25 and 10 man raids separate entirely. There were two 10 man raids and the rest was 25. No option at all.

    In Wrath, we were given two sizes for each raid, with separate lockouts and different quality gear drops. We were given a choice in which size we wanted to run, but many people still felt they were "forced" to run both sizes to optimize their gear.

    In Cataclysm, lockouts between both sizes were merged and both sizes share drops and achievements. People now pick 25 man less than 10 man.


    I don't know about anyone else, but to me this tells volumes about the playerbase's will to actually run 25 man raids and manage 25 man guilds instead of 10 mans. When given the option, most people left 25 man behind. To me, that tells me people aren't as interested in 25 mans as you thought they were, or else they'd maintain what they did before.

    This sounds exactly the same as the World PvP issue: people claim that removing this or removing that or changing X and Y would make people engage in it more, when in fact it's the players who avoid it to begin with as long as they can.
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  6. #46
    The probelms become when you're in a 25man guild, and wiping repeatedly on a boss like Ultraxion HM, and you and the entire guild know that if you split into 10mans you could trivially kill him, you have a problem. But the second a guild breaks into 10mans, you often lose a lot of your raiders that are in the guild because they want to do 25mans, and then you lose half the guild and end up being a 10man guild because Blizzard horribly tuned 25s vs 10s.

    The only thing Blizzard needs to do to save 25mans is to evenly tune all the bosses, which they failed at miserably with dragonsoul.

  7. #47
    The Lightbringer MonsieuRoberts's Avatar
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    I didn't know that not adding direct incentive means that a form of gameplay dies.

    There is no direct incentive to do the Ironman Challenge, and yet characters achieve level 85 with nothing but greys.
    There is no direct incentive to attain Transmogrification gear, and yet Transmogrification lives.
    There is no direct incentive to gank people, and yet World PvP, while not as grand as it once was, still exists.
    There is no direct incentive to participate in Roleplay, and yet people craft intricate and detailed stories and adventures.
    There is no direct incentive to learn about the lore, and yet WoWwiki & WoWhead are among some of the most visited World of Warcraft domains.

    There is no direct incentive for many things that players actively take part in, and yet much of the game is alive. It's because they enjoy it.

    Blizzard doesn't have to shove bonuses and prestiege into every parameter of the game in order for it to be relevant and enjoyable, "alive."
    Last edited by MonsieuRoberts; 2012-03-19 at 05:15 PM.
    "In short, people are idiots who don't really understand anything." -Seramore

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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by MonsieuRoberts View Post
    Blizzard doesn't have to shove bonuses and prestiege into every parameter of the game in order for it to be relevant and enjoyable, "alive."
    They obviously had to before 10 man got as popular as it is. Lets face it, the majority of the wow player base just raid for the shiny loots, achievements or mounts. Not many people raid because of the challenge, of course this is true for both raid sizes but I suspect that a bigger % of the 10 man players just raid because it is easy epics.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by smeegoan2later View Post
    Nah, it's a reflection of the content being harder than wrath, at least early on. (ds is pretty laughable)
    No, it's not. The numbers I referred to (if you even bothered to look at them instead of throwing around worthless opinions) are a reflection of the shared achievements. The content being harder or easier is irrelevant. The over all drop in both is irrelevant. I am referring to the drop in 25s vs 10s today compared to the number of 25s vs 10s back then. Do you understand that? The over all decrease in both is not the issue. I'm concerned with the disproportionate decrease in 25s. If you can't grasp that then I don't know what else to say. I'm not trying to be rude I just don't think actually looking at the numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by smeegoan2later View Post
    If you look at any decently progressed server it's loaded with 8/8 H 25 guilds, and three times that which are getting close. 25 raiders still exist en-masse. also... if you do the math of the roster for the 25 guilds, they essentially equal 3 10 guilds.
    You are looking at specific servers and ignoring the numbers available for the entire game. Your example is an exception, not the rule. Only 3,000 25man guilds have downed normal mode madness compared to almost 33,000 10man guilds downing normal mode madness. Lich King 10man normal numbers are closer to 50,000 for 10man guilds and 11,500 for 25man guilds. You're talking about going from 4 times as many 10man guilds vs 25man guilds all the way up to 11 times as many 10man guilds vs 25man guilds.

    Quote Originally Posted by smeegoan2later View Post
    Whether you like it or not 25 may be dying from wrath of the noob king standards, but is well above in sheer numbers compared to TBC guilds that actually accomplished anything. (which only had 25 raiding as an option.)
    I can't figure out how to find the data on one of the tracking sites so I don't have any info on this regarding all servers so I would love to see you back this up.

    To take the "server only" approach that you have taken I will phrase it like this.. My server went from like 30+ 25man raiding guilds in TBC to 15 or so in Wrath and now down to 2 in Cata. Your idea that Cata had more 25man guilds than TBC is backwards and silly.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-19 at 01:23 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by metaknightt91 View Post
    25 mans are not dying, straight up. Many guilds, especially higher end guilds are continuing to and will continue to raid 25s.
    Wrong

    25mans dropped from being out numbers 4-1 during Wrath to being out numbered 11-1 in Cata.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-19 at 01:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MonsieuRoberts View Post
    Blizzard doesn't have to shove bonuses and prestiege into every parameter of the game in order for it to be relevant and enjoyable, "alive."
    I agree with you sir. However since achievements are the exact same, it's like saying "hey you did the exact same thing!" and therefor there is a negative incentive for 25mans.

    If they kept loot the same, rewards the same and only separated achievements then the 10mans would have what they want and the 25s would have what they want, which is recognition for their extra investment.

    If you complete the Iron Man challenge at the very least you get to post or talk about it on the forums, you receive recognition. (like the guy that supposedly got to 85 first doing the challenge was on the front page of mmoc.)

    That is all that it would take to revive 25mans in my opinion.
    Last edited by Judson; 2012-03-19 at 05:27 PM.
    armory - wowheroes - wowprogress
    Are you looking for a 25man raiding guild? We raid on US - Thunderhorn from 8-11 server time Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday nights. Check us out at http://www.twilight-alliance.com

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by MonsieuRoberts View Post
    I didn't know that not adding direct incentive means that a form of gameplay dies.

    There is no direct incentive to do the Ironman Challenge, and yet characters achieve level 85 with nothing but greys.
    There is no direct incentive to attain Transmogrification gear, and yet Transmogrification lives.
    There is no direct incentive to gank people, and yet World PvP, while not as grand as it once was, still exists.
    There is no direct incentive to participate in Roleplay, and yet people craft intricate and detailed stories and adventures.
    There is no direct incentive to learn about the lore, and yet WoWwiki & WoWhead are among some of the most visited World of Warcraft domains.

    There is no direct incentive for many things that players actively take part in, and yet much of the game is alive. It's because they enjoy it.

    Blizzard doesn't have to shove bonuses and prestiege into every parameter of the game in order for it to be relevant and enjoyable, "alive."
    Thank you very much sir, you've said it all.
    The only thing killing 25-man raids is 25-man raiders.

  11. #51
    If you like to raid 25 mans and you have a raid that is all that should mater. What others on your server or other realms are doing shouldn't. I know on my server at least there has been a splash back of new 25s popping up. Some time away from them has made ppl want to do them more. They are slightly easier in some ways and offer up just a little more loot and that appeals to many players. The ppl that like to show of and try to flex their epeens for others love them too, bigger numbers in 25s and 15 extra ppl to see them.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsumata View Post
    I don't like this idea because I enjoy raiding with friends and we don't have 25 of us that play.
    Then you do the 10 man raid. The fundamental problem that killed 25 man raiding is that the rewards for 25 man raiding were not inline with the effort. If there were different raids for different sizes, 25 man guilds could do their raid and be rewarded with seeing that content, while people that just want to play with a few friends can do the 10 man raid and get their rewards there.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-19 at 05:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    If you like to raid 25 mans and you have a raid that is all that should mater. What others on your server or other realms are doing shouldn't.
    What you think should or shouldn't matter is meaningless. The reality is that it does matter on many levels. If it takes me twice as much effort to run a 25 man guild than it takes you to run a 10 man guild, yet you get the same rewards, then I'm not going to be enjoying myself. That's just how the human mind works.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Adramalech View Post
    I don't know about anyone else, but to me this tells volumes about the playerbase's will to actually run 25 man raids and manage 25 man guilds instead of 10 mans. When given the option, most people left 25 man behind. To me, that tells me people aren't as interested in 25 mans as you thought they were, or else they'd maintain what they did before.
    They didn't leave it behind because it was all equal. Previously 25man, while requiring more out of the player, provided greater reward. Now the loot, achievements, rewards may be equal but the effort and investment is still greater for 25mans. They went to 10mans because the return on investment increased with 10s. If the return on investment were the same for both then I could agree with you.

    A lot of guilds simply took their 10 top raiders from their old 25man guild and increased their performance, maintained top loot and rewards, and lowered their investment, effort and headache.

    To me, this does not signify that players will chose 25man when when or if everything is equal and instead it signifies that players will choose the "path of least resistance."

    This is also why I wish for a separation of achievements, to appeal to the vanity in players seeking prestige. The players that dropped to 10man so that they could down more heroic content will again be interested in 25mans if the achievements specify which version if the encounter they defeated. Not to mention the ability for 25man guilds to clear both sets of content and obtain both sets of achievements.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-19 at 01:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Theronus View Post
    The only thing killing 25-man raids is 25-man raiders.
    25man raiders are the only thing keeping it alive. With the return on investment being greater for 10s, and 10s offering the path of least resistance... Or, possibly the fact that the achievements are the exact same, saying "hey you guys did the exact same thing!"
    armory - wowheroes - wowprogress
    Are you looking for a 25man raiding guild? We raid on US - Thunderhorn from 8-11 server time Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday nights. Check us out at http://www.twilight-alliance.com

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Judson View Post
    This is also why I wish for a separation of achievements, to appeal to the vanity in players seeking prestige.
    It's not even about vanity or prestige, it's about fairness. Killing 8/8hc in 10 man is nowhere near the same achievement as killing it in 25 man. Running 25 man guilds, especially ones capable of beating the hardest content, takes far, far more effort in recruitment, organization, leadership, raid leading, tactics, etc. than 10 mans do. Giving out the same achievement, especially server first achievements, for them is just completely unjustifiable.

  15. #55
    it could die anytime anyday! Look what happened to 40 mans raid? Nobody's doing it expect for guild run, achievements! Anyway, 25 mans is alot responsibility, time consuming. Do you honestly want to continue 25 man cuz it's easier and more rewards?

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by smeegoan2later View Post
    My points are only that 25 raiding is thriving, as long as you aren't on a dead shitty server.
    I wouldn't exactly say 25 mans are thriving. In EU, there's a handful of high population servers where 25 man raiding survives because people from all the other realms migrated to them. Eventually the same forces that killed 25 mans on all those other servers will start hitting the high population servers as well.

  17. #57
    What I would really like to know is what would it hurt to separate achievements?

    If you are a 10man raider can you tell me if it would bother you if your achievement specified that you did it on 10man and mine specified that I did it on 25man?
    armory - wowheroes - wowprogress
    Are you looking for a 25man raiding guild? We raid on US - Thunderhorn from 8-11 server time Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday nights. Check us out at http://www.twilight-alliance.com

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Theronus View Post
    So, unless 25s get endlessly more rewarding than 10s it's not worth doing?
    All I hear is QQ, 25s wanting to be a shinier snowflake.
    Even if that horse has been beaten quite a lot of times - you don't do double the work for the same reward.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Judson View Post

    You are looking at specific servers and ignoring the numbers available for the entire game. Your example is an exception, not the rule. Only 3,000 25man guilds have downed normal mode madness compared to almost 33,000 10man guilds downing normal mode madness. Lich King 10man normal numbers are closer to 50,000 for 10man guilds and 11,500 for 25man guilds. You're talking about going from 4 times as many 10man guilds vs 25man guilds all the way up to 11 times as many 10man guilds vs 25man guilds.
    If you go by the number of players, more people have done 25 than 10 in Cataclysm compared to Wrath. That's somewhat interesting.

    25 man guild = 2.5 more people :P

  20. #60
    you can still raid 25s. i do. 25 mans arent dead. and if/when they are dead, blizzard isnt responsible. the players are.

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