Blizzard will let 25 mans die?

[Deleted]

I play a Paladin. If I'm in a 5 man group, I can expect there to be a tank, a healer and 2 other DPS. Lets say we get a rogue and a hunter.

That makes me the only chocie for an off tank, should one be needed and an off healer, should one be needed. If a mage had been selected instead of me, there'd be noone there for those roles. If a warrior had ben selected, there'd be no off healer candidate. With me there, the designers have to assume I either heal/tank in DPS gear with a DPs spec, or I have a second/third set of gear and don't mind respeccing. It also assumes I know how to heal or tank well enough to take the role and care to do so...both of which are unreasonable assumptions.

sounds like if you talking of a 5 man LFD dungeon group not the scenario of a 5 man raid group... which is not what archidamos is arguing about.

what does EJL mean btw? Expert Juggins Logic

[Deleted]

Likewise, I've also always stated that convenience was one of the factors that causde peopel to chosoe 10s. The only one? No. Nor do I think it matters.

Convenience is only 1 factor which makes 10mans easier... but it makes it easier nonetheless.

And all the time there is an easier option then that option will continue to destory the harder option... and thats EXACTLY what is happening, and is EXACTLY what this thread is about.

25man is dying due to the imbalances between 10 and 25man... if u refute that then u truly dont know how to analyse facts.

No, it doesn't. It means there is a difference, but how that translates into "10s are easier" is beyond me.

Difference means one will be easier... ur an idiot if u think u can argue "there is a difference" and yet u can also argue that "they are both the same difficulty".

Since the birth of videogames players have looked to discover, utilise and then act on every advantage they can find in a game. And this situation is following that exact videogame philosophy. Players know the easier way to get those bosses down and theyre following that path.

Heres the big newsflash....

Having 10s be more conveneint is some ways does notmean that the raid itself is easier.

Convenience is not a measure of raid difficulty. Its a measure of accessibility. More 10s forming simply means I don't have to wait as long to get into a raid. It is more convenient for me to do so as I end up facing content of the same difficulty and getting the same rewards..

Newsflash...

Its not just convenience which makes 10man easier... ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO BALANCE 10 v 25MAN.

Therefore one raid will be easier and all the facts continue to show that 10man is easier fight mechanics.

I know we are banging our head against a wall with u Talen but we are studying facts and ur simply trying to defend what u feel in your heart.

I dont love or hate either raid size, so i genuinely dont care which is better, easier or has the advantage... i just want to get rid of this patheitc and destructive issue of two raid sizes... revert to what has always worked in Wow, one raid size. Then we can all get along with competing on A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

[Deleted]

snip

I would stray away from insults if I were you. Nothing's stopping you from making your point without calling anyone an idiot or suggestion they're stupid because they can't "analyze facts" in the way that you want them to.

Talen's point is quite simple, rewards are relative to the difficulty of the actual raid itself not in the difficulty of entering the raid. It is absolutely clear that 10m are easier to organize and form, but once inside the instance supposedly they are of equal challenge to the players that are in there. I say "supposedly" because this is the goal around which Blizzard designs. Obviously its impossible to perfectly balance them but the goal is to have the overall challenge be similar enough to where you can give both equal rewards. That is the overall challenge of the boss fights, not including the challenge of maintaining the guild outside of raid times.

You seem to think that the increased difficulty of organizing the raid group should result in increased rewards from the raid (even if the actual encounters are of equal difficulty). Some people disagree with you.

As for the encounters themselves: Maybe they are of equal difficulty and maybe they're not. I've raided both this xpac and for me its varied from fight to fight, but that is all irrelevant. Blizzard are balancing the game around the idea that they should be equal in challenge. Again, equal in challenge of the boss fights, not equal in challenge of forming and maintaining the guild. I think its assumed that the reward for putting up with the organizational overhead is that you have a more lively gchat and bigger community.

[Deleted]

You seem to think that the increased difficulty of organizing the raid group should result in increased rewards from the raid (even if the actual encounters are of equal difficulty). Some people disagree with you.

I do not think its simply an issue of organisation makes one raid easier or more difficult. There are ALOT of facts mentioned in this thread demonstrating loud and clear how the mechanics themselves are biased in favour of 10man also.

My point is simple... its 100% impossible to create 2 different games to kill the same boss and then call it the same. By this argument Blizzard would be justified to create a 2 man raid and give it the same rewards... or how about a 200man raid?

Point is that raiders want one thing... A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

Two different raid sizes does not provide a level playing field and anyone who tries to argue that we have a level playing field simply cannot analyse facts. Every item of data shows that 25man is dying... FACT.

[Deleted]

If only your argument had any merit.

There are no mechanics in 25s that cannot be adjusted for a 10. You can take a multi tank encounter and still have a multi tank encounter. With 5s, you'll need to take a multi tank encounter down to a single tank encounter. No more mechanics based around multiple tanks or healers.

We have to do without encounters like Maulgar and Vasj,
we have to do with pets inspiring heroism to raids,
we have to do with all classes interupting with the same cd,
healing with the same spells but with different names
Blessing of kings and Mark of the Wild, 2 signature buffs, doing the same thing!

All those, are things designed for raids that were dumped down to fit into smt that was called raid for first time in TBC, and at a later part a genious decided that they should make the same content for both sizes, and later on, an even greater genious thought that they can share everything, and become the same.
25 can include everything a 10 man can mechanics wise. 10 man cannot fit anything designed for larger groups within, just as dungeon cannot fit everything designed for a 10 man.
There is not "raid" and dungeon".
Dungeon is defining the place, an underworld dangerous place that groups were faced against dangers.
Raid defines the group not the place.
There is nowhere a rule that a raid is consisted by 25 people lets say. In the past we had 10,15,20,25,40 man raids.
There is nowhere a rule that dungeon group (not dungeon) can be only 5 people. In the past we had 10 man dungeons! Is this annoying to you? Sorry it is the truth, 10 mans were the "heroic" dungeons of early vanilla! The "end game DUNGEONS!"

And if he'd tried it in normal, he'd be dead. And if he'd tried it without that primary tank...he'd likely be dead. And if he'd tried it not on Yseras platform, he'd likely be dead. And if he'd shown up like that in a tank role, he'd be kicked. Or it could just be he outgeared the instance. I see a fair amount of 403 players in players

You also miss the point about the mechanics possible in a riad vs those possible in a dungeon.

No you missed the point that a dps can tank with a simple swap if the fight is properly tuned (aka the LFR example).
You also missed the part that in order to bring closer the dps ratio Blizzard more often than not is making fights in 10 posible with 1 tank, and 2 healers in HEROIC10! Thus your argument about elaborated mechanics holds water anyway. I am just bringing the 5 man group as an example to show it to you how rediculous your arguments are, but at the same time i know that you are WAY too blind to see it!

You want a dungeon run, nothings stopping you queueing for HoT.

Again dear EJL 10 man used to be the "heroic DUNGEONS" of vanila. Now they are "raids".
They never had a firm policy about the sizes, thus 5 man COULD BE the small raid in MoP!

Because then they have the option of a 5 man dungeon run. If the 5 man run was the same difficulty as the raid, then they should expect the same loot quality. If its harder, they should expect better. But that doesn't make a 5 man a raid just as a tough solo quest line doesn't make 1 player a party.

Pointless to continue talking on this, people that are not blind will see my point, you re just hopeless.

Yes. But you don't. WOW parties aren't built like that.

Seriously? WoW raids used to be 40 man, now they re not. Vanila had 10 man DUNGEONS! There was not a single expansion in this game that everything stayed the same!

No. However, they do make for a difference between raids and dungeons.

You see, the multiple group aspect of raids makes possible certain mechanics that a single group aspect cannot.

I'm surprised you can't see this. You seem like a knowledgeable fellow but you seem overly fixated on the concept that diffuclty defines a raid setting. It doesn't.

I am surprised that you are unable to see how many things are watered down to fit in a 10 man.

<snip>

I edited your post instead of infracting you. Consider this a warning, as well as everyone else in the thread. You can make your points without resorting to insults, mockery or flaming of any kind. That includes any semi-insults where you try to make fun of them or suggest they're stupid in any way. If you've made your point and failed to convince someone then the proper thing to do is let it go, not resort to attacking the person. -Ravengage

[Deleted]

I do not think its simply an issue of organisation makes one raid easier or more difficult. There are ALOT of facts mentioned in this thread demonstrating loud and clear how the mechanics themselves are biased in favour of 10man also.

My point is simple... its 100% impossible to create 2 different games to kill the same boss and then call it the same. By this argument Blizzard would be justified to create a 2 man raid and give it the same rewards... or how about a 200man raid?

Point is that raiders want one thing... A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

Two different raid sizes does not provide a level playing field and anyone who tries to argue that we have a level playing field simply cannot analyse facts. Every item of data shows that 25man is dying... FACT.

Well a 100% even playing field is an absurd perfectionist idea that will never happen. What about class balance? Difference between lag for different guilds? Server balance? The question has never been "are 10 and 25 completely equal" its "are they close enough?". If you think there is a significant enough difference between them to warrant different rewards then ok, but I don't see how you can claim that to be a "fact". As I said, I've raided both and there are certain bosses which I found mechanically much more challenging in 10m. So it is possible to make a fight in such a way that its harder in 10.

Now indulge me for a second with a hypothetical fantasy. Lets say in MoP Blizzard pull some magical balance kung fu and create a raid that has a nearly perfect balance of difficulty between 10 and 25. They got bosses like Al'akir in there which are much more crowded and harder with more people but also bosses like Cho'gal which are much harder with the less flexibile compositions of a 10m. Lets say they balance it so well that overall its relatively even, it takes players of equal skill and gear the same # of hours/attempts to clear the instance on either size. Lets say the overall balance is within a few %.

This is the ideal that they are trying to make. Perhaps they haven't succeeded yet. But if they do, why should they not award the same loot to both sizes?

[Deleted]

Well a 100% even playing field is an absurd perfectionist idea that will never happen.

Exactly!!!!

Its impossible all the time we havethis stupid idea that 2 raid sizes can be balanced... they cant and u obviously agree.

Therefore, go back to 1 raid size... problem solved and we can all stop this retarded arguing we have had throughout Cataclysm. the most arguing in the raiding community since Vanilla ffs

Have u actually read my posts? Cos your posts kinda show u havent...

I dont love or hate either raid size, so i genuinely dont care which is better, easier or has the advantage... i just want to get rid of this patheitc and destructive issue of two raid sizes... revert to what has always worked in Wow, one raid size. Then we can all get along with competing on A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

PS ive raided both too.

[highslime]

I transferred to Stormrage-US to raid in a 25 man environment at the end of Firelands because I'd gotten fed up with the lack of any sort of "community" in the 10 man guild I was in. Sadly, 3 months later the guild I transferred to downsized to 10 man, taking the clique with it. Their reasoning was that it was just too hard to recruit for 25s when you have 32084523908402934 other 10 man guilds that are just as progressed or a bit moreso than 25. People are just going to pick the easier route. Being that I still wanted to raid, I ended up finding another 25 man guild that... you guessed it.. soon downsized to a 10 as well. I'm currently raiding in the 10 man format yet again because that's my "only" percieved choice. Sure, I could apply to the 3 other top 25 mans on Stormrage, but either they A. don't fit my hours or B. are at a playing level I'm not at.

So yeah, basically to sum it up... people are going to take the shorter/easier path to reach their goals. If that means choosing 10 over 25 man raiding, then so be it. It's not Blizzard's fault COMPLETELY. A large portion of the blame also rests on the playerbase who want to take the easy route.

[Deleted]

Exactly!!!!

Its impossible all the time we havethis stupid idea that 2 raid sizes can be balanced... they cant and u obviously agree.

Therefore, go back to 1 raid size... problem solved and we can all stop this retarded arguing we have had throughout Cataclysm. the most arguing in the raiding community since Vanilla ffs

Have u actually read my posts? Cos your posts kinda show u havent...

PS ive raided both too.

41 page long thread lol, I admit I kind of came in a few pages ago and went from there. So sorry, I haven't. I just came in to make sure people aren't getting too feisty with their arguing and start breaking forum rules and I kind of got sucked into the discussion.

And yes I agree a single raid size might be a better solution. BUT I'm not completely convinced yet that it HAS to happen. There might be less 25m guilds out there but there are still quite a few of them. Perhaps enough to justify Blizzard's continued attempts to bring the balance as close to perfect as possible? I don't know, but that's up to them I guess. In the meantime... *shrug* I respect anyone who clears heroic content on either difficulty.

[Deleted]

And yes I agree a single raid size might be a better solution. BUT I'm not completely convinced yet that it HAS to happen. There might be less 25m guilds out there but there are still quite a few of them. Perhaps enough to justify Blizzard's continued attempts to bring the balance as close to perfect as possible? I don't know, but that's up to them I guess. In the meantime... *shrug* I respect anyone who clears heroic content on either difficulty.

My point is simple... two different raid sizes will ALWAYS have differences, and differences mean imbalance. Gamers have ALWAYS worked out the easiest way to reach a goal and Wow is no different. Gamers will work out the easiest route and focus on that. The evidence (the facts) shows that this route is currently 10man. I dont care what the details are of "why" this has happened.. its happened. So lets try to work out how to react to this fact.

My only conclusion is that we must get rid of 2 raiding routes cos right now its achieveing one thing... negativity, arguing and animosity within the raiding community.

Its impossible for anyone to balance two raiding routes, no matter how much time, money and resources the devs throw at it.

Raiders want one thing... a level playing field. And there is only one true way to achive this. Let raiders all compete in the same damn fight.

[Deleted]

Thank you for the way you have chosen to handle my responce to him RavenGage but i am out anyway.

The point of this thread is an answer to the question "Blizzard will let 25 mans die?"

Only the context in which this question is formulated, is a living proof that so far blizzard is doing excactly that.

They are letting large raid size to die.

As a result of all this, the people that used to enjoy 25s and now they can't, come here to protest against this policy.

I was one of them...

No more...

The rest of you that struggle or struggled to keep the large raids alive against this biased system,

a system that killed thousands of guilds or forced them to downsize,

good luck into continue enjoying the game the way you prefer!!!

[Talen]

sounds like if you talking of a 5 man LFD dungeon group not the scenario of a 5 man raid group... which is not what archidamos is arguing about.

Unless he's prepared to state that people must be prepared to play as role they didn't sign up for, get rid of PuGs, and so on....he is. You cannot assume that any given player will be able to fill a second role, or even will want to fill a second role and a 5 man group is too small to allow for that kind of variation. A 5 man group is too small to support all the mechanics available to raid designers.

Which is why raid groups intended for raids of the appropriate level include multiple parties.

EJL

[Deleted]

My point is simple... two different raid sizes will ALWAYS have differences, and differences mean imbalance. Gamers have ALWAYS worked out the easiest way to reach a goal and Wow is no different. Gamers will work out the easiest route and focus on that. The evidence (the facts) shows that this route is currently 10man. I dont care what the details are of "why" this has happened.. its happened. So lets try to work out how to react to this fact.

My only conclusion is that we must get rid of 2 raiding routes cos right now its achieveing one thing... negativity, arguing and animosity within the raiding community.

Its impossible for anyone to balance two raiding routes, no matter how much time, money and resources the devs throw at it.

Raiders want one thing... a level playing field. And there is only one true way to achive this. Let raiders all compete in the same damn fight.

*sigh* as someone who has to moderate a Raiding forum with daily 10v25 arguments believe me, I understand where you're coming from with this. And I'm not saying I disagree.

I have to wonder though, you make the claim that "raiders want an even playing field". You do obviously, I do as well and I've raided for 7 years. But all raiders? There's a 25m guild on my server which is quite casual compared to what I'm used to raiding. I'm not too sure if they care about the playing field as much as about having their community in-game. I kind of see Blizzard's PoV in this, the reason they decided to go down this road in the first place - to make raiding more accessible but at the same time allow those big guilds to keep their communities, and allow the people who wish to form big guilds continue to do so. Even if it makes 25m a vast minority in the game, perhaps from their PoV its better to give players that option and have only a few % of players use it, than to not give the option at all.

And if that influences the progression races and causes arguments... well that's the downside I suppose. Its up to them to weight these two things against each other. Of course I'm only guessing as to their intentions and thought processes here. For me personally life would be simpler if there was only 1 raid size.

[Jurwi]

Thank you for the way you have chosen to handle my responce to him RavenGage but i am out anyway.

The point of this thread is an answer to the question "Blizzard will let 25 mans die?"

Only the context in which this question is formulated, is a living proof that so far blizzard is doing excactly that.

They are letting large raid size to die.

As a result of all this, the people that used to enjoy 25s and now they can't, come here to protest against this policy.

I was one of them...

No more...

The rest of you that struggle or struggled to keep the large raids alive against this biased system,

a system that killed thousands of guilds or forced them to downsize,

good luck into continue enjoying the game the way you prefer!!!

Killed thousands of guilds, but out of those ashes tens of thousands more were born. That's life.

[Deleted]

*sigh* as someone who has to moderate a Raiding forum with daily 10v25 arguments believe me, I understand where you're coming from with this. And I'm not saying I disagree.

Thanks, its great to have this point backed up by someone in a position where u can speak from experience

Im sick to the back teeth of the pointless arguing which is dividing entire realms, communites and the game as a whole. Apparent when reading any forum.

I have to wonder though, you make the claim that "raiders want an even playing field". You do obviously, I do as well and I've raided for 7 years. But all raiders?

Ok, to be fair its arguable that its only the 'old skool' and 'serious' raiders who want a level playing field... there is a strong argument that the casuals dont care. They just want a mechanism to be able to raid easymode and therefore see all of the content.

Most would argue its this section of the Wow customers who complained loud enough during ICC which promted Blizzard to make the change in the first place.

I kind of see Blizzard's PoV in this, the reason they decided to go down this road in the first place - to make raiding more accessible but at the same time allow those big guilds to keep their communities, and allow the people who wish to form big guilds continue to do so. Even if it makes 25m a vast minority in the game, perhaps from their PoV its better to give players that option and have only a few % of players use it, than to not give the option at all.

Well its on this point that Blizzard have failed epicly.

They have only acheived division across the entire raiding community and pouring fuel onto a fire at every turn to enrage raiders at every turn. If they were trying to preserve parts of the 25man community its fair to say they have failed in this regard.

And if that influences the progression races and causes arguments... well that's the downside I suppose. Its up to them to weight these two things against each other. Of course I'm only guessing as to their intentions and thought processes here. For me personally life would be simpler if there was only 1 raid size.

I think to be fair all serious raiders agree with this... 1 raid size please

[Kam12]

40 man were the best, 25 were "ok", no 25 man die?

---------- Post added 2012-04-11 at 02:31 PM ----------

I wonder why is blizzard so retarded.

---------- Post added 2012-04-11 at 02:32 PM ----------

I wonder why is blizzard so retarded.

[Sprucelee]

Depends from case to case. In our case, there was no issue with the leadership, but with people leaving one by one and being nearly impossible to recruit.

Yes, but my whole point is if you were a 10-man guild, you would of had the same exact problem.

Losing people one by one and being unable to recruit has nothing to do with raid size.

[Glorn]

Talen's point is quite simple, rewards are relative to the difficulty of the actual raid itself not in the difficulty of entering the raid. It is absolutely clear that 10m are easier to organize and form, but once inside the instance supposedly they are of equal challenge to the players that are in there. I say "supposedly" because this is the goal around which Blizzard designs. Obviously its impossible to perfectly balance them but the goal is to have the overall challenge be similar enough to where you can give both equal rewards. That is the overall challenge of the boss fights, not including the challenge of maintaining the guild outside of raid times.

You seem to think that the increased difficulty of organizing the raid group should result in increased rewards from the raid (even if the actual encounters are of equal difficulty). Some people disagree with you.

Just one thing bothers me now.You said that it's obvious that 10 mans are easier to organize and form and I agree,but when you're inside instance encounters are close to equal so that's why we should have equal rewards.

Ok,let's say we have perfectly equal encounters in raid instance on 10 and 25 man,it's harder to organise 25 man but it doesn't matter at all atm.
You have 35 raiders,they are all 100% equally skilled,they split into 2 raid groups 10 and 25,they also have equal squad class wise,buff wise etc (we are talking about a perfet game here).
Still doesn't it make 25 man harder just because there is 15 more people and there is much bigger possibility that someone will screw up and wipe the raid?
Not saying that 25 man is more "chaotic" and in 10 man you have better view of the whole fight and you feel like that you can control everything that's happening(that is always my impression).





PS. Jeeez while making this thread I never expected 41 pages discussion...

[Talen]

Convenience is only 1 factor which makes 10mans easier... but it makes it easier nonetheless.

No. It makes it more convenient. Once I get into the raid, that convenience factor isn't an issue. It simply means that it is more liekly that I'll get a 10 man group sooner than a 25 amn group. It means there are organisational differences involved.

But the actual raid itself isn't really affected by that convenience.

And all the time there is an easier option then that option will continue to destory the harder option... and thats EXACTLY what is happening, and is EXACTLY what this thread is about.

There are lots of reasons why 25s aren't as popular as they once were. Convenience isn't a big one. After all, it would be more convenient and require less effort for many players to stay within their existing 25 man guild than leave and form a new guild. But thats what many did. They and a bunch of their friends left the benefits of an already existing support structure, many of which had long established raid schedules and put in the work to form their own guild and 10m group.

For those players, the 10man format, the feel, the lack of drama inherent in some 25s, the desire to raid with close friends in a more intimate setting and so on justified the work they needed to do and outweighed the existing convenience that was part and parcel of their existing raid structure.

25man is dying due to the imbalances between 10 and 25man... if u refute that then u truly dont know how to analyse facts.

25s are getting rarer. I'm not sure I'd say dying off. And the imbalances are there - OUTSIDE the raid.

Difference means one will be easier... ur an idiot if u think u can argue "there is a difference" and yet u can also argue that "they are both the same difficulty".

Once again, they aren't the same difficulty and that difference is magnified if you examine individual encounters and mechanics. Overall, however, the difference simply isn't that great.

You may feel otherwise, but I am currently of the opinion that the differences that exist are not of the magnitude required to justify extra rewards or incentives or recognition....especially given the problems that may arise if that were done.

You are right one raid will be easier. However, that isn't the point you need to be making. You need to be making the point that one raid is so much easier that it actually is worth recognisiton and that this is a deliberate decision on Blizzards part.

It is not that the raids aren't different...its that they aren't different enough. And even if that were the case, the central aim of Blizzards design, right now, is that they are intended to be similar enough to justify the same rewards.

That last part is the main issue. The system isn't perfect, but it is what Blizzard are working towards. 100% balance will never be achievable for various reasons, many of which are outside Blizzards control. But they are similar enough, IMO, that the goal of equal rewards for equal effort is justified.

No you missed the point that a dps can tank with a simple swap if the fight is properly tuned (aka the LFR example).

Yes...an overgeared DPSser with a sub optimal DPS spec can potentially step in and tank to a limited degree. Right up to the point he finds out that he really needs that 6% crit reduction or that hes being held up by his healers and they've run out of mana.

Even were we to accept this, you can't guarantee a second tank/heal capable class in a 5 man unless you start putting heavy restrictions on what the actual party make up will be. And without that guarantee, you simply can't design around that role. Even in a heavily watered down manner that essentially states "tanks not needed"

You also missed the part that in order to bring closer the dps ratio Blizzard more often than not is making fights in 10 posible with 1 tank, and 2 healers in HEROIC10!

????

That fact that Blizzard CAN design around multiple tanks in no way means it is obligated to do so. Some fights will revolve around one tank and others two. It is those fights where 5 mans cannot be held to be able to acccomdate the raid mechanics which are the issue.

10 man used to be the "heroic DUNGEONS" of vanila.

Yep...back when there were no size limits at all. Then they got scaled back and retuned so 5 mans could handle them.

I am surprised that you are unable to see how many things are watered down to fit in a 10 man.

Watered down? Perhaps. Not, however, eliminated.

Right now, the ideal solution, in many ways, would be a single raid size. Thats not going to happen. And it wouldn't be universally popular. A lot of guilds like the 25 man content, like having those big raid groups and if they are rarer than they were, they aren't dead yet. Its said a lot of guilds died due to these changes. Maybe they did...but a lot of guilds also rose because of them.

As I said...Blizzards policy is to ensure equal reward for equal effort. As part of that policy, that means 10s and 25s are to be as equal as possible. Within the raid.

Why not outside the raid? Because that aspect is outside Blizzards control. Its not something they should be involved with either and there is, at this point in time, absolutely nothing Blizzard can do to draw players to 25s without breaking their policy on this.

If they choose to do so, fine, but speaking for myself.....its not something they should do. Blizzards current raid policy has good goals, good aims. Its unfortunate that it appears to have had a negative effect on 25s, but then again artificially propping up an unpopular raid format isn't a great goal itself. So long as the difficulties are reasonably close, the concept offers a great deal to the game.

EJL

[Zardro]

If the same continues into MoP as it is in Cata, surely you'll see 25 man raids continue to "die". Just look up the number of 25 man guilds left.

WTB Wrath raid model back