Page 52 of 90 FirstFirst ...
2
42
50
51
52
53
54
62
... LastLast
  1. #1021
    Back in the olden days there were 10mans for better gear than 5mans, 20mans for better gear than 10mans and 40mans for better gear than 20mans. System seemed to work pretty well. People will always do what's easiest to get the reward. At least when content progress was matched to increased raid size everything made sense.

  2. #1022
    The death of 25m was predicted. People who wanted to raid 25m complained about it, the rest of the community called them whiners and moved on. Oh well.

    Last edited by rkma; 2012-04-29 at 07:45 AM.

  3. #1023
    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    No i would rather quit than raid in 10s, its ungrateful leading 25s and bloody hart getting recruits of any caliber for em, and if you end up in a dry strech with no recruits your guild dies...
    But most players do accept 10s and are willing to make that adjustment. Much as they might say they prefer 25s, when they take into account the entire package, they end up going with 10s. They prefer 10s.

    There is a difference between prefering something and seing that something has all the incentives. Atm 10s have all the incentives. you are going to deny it but it is the truth.
    10s has no incentives that 25s do not. None. Not as part of the raid. 25s are harder to lead and manage, with the result of fewer leaders and thus fewer such groups. Thats a player issue but the format itself offers little or no advantages over 25s. As it is, 25s tend to have the in-raid incentives already.

    So your bff friends in your 10 man guild from wrath wanted to kick you if you didn't raid in a pug ones a week.
    Its happened. You may not like the fact such coercion exists...but it does. Players feel an obligation to their guildmates, they feel an obligation to ther friends, they feel an obligation to they feel an obligation to the prima donna tank who wants his four runs a week or he quits and good luck finding another to take his place and so on. There are many reasons why players feel an obligation to engage in this behaviour but it does exist. Your denial of it doesn't change that. Nor does it change the fact Blizzard baalnced around such behavior - it had to.

    Its more of a problem with recruitment
    Either way...not an issue with the raid, the model or Blizzard.

    oh Dreamcast dont bring out 5 man raiding you know how that brings out the hypocrite in Talen
    As soon as you can find a way to make raid mechanics work with just a random group of 5 players - 1 healer, 1 tank and 3 DPS - I'll agree that you can form a 5 man raid. Otherwise, what you get is a difficult dungeon run. Just one without the mechanics that a raid group makes possible simply by virtue of having multiple parties available.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2012-04-29 at 10:35 AM.

  4. #1024
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    As soon as you can find a way to make raid mechanics work with just a random group of 5 players - 1 healer, 1 tank and 3 DPS - I'll agree that you can form a 5 man raid. Otherwise, what you get is a difficult dungeon run. Just one without the mechanics that a raid group makes possible simply by virtue of having multiple parties available.

    EJL
    Zul gurub and zul aman old raidinstances that where recycled into 5 mans with a lot of the old mechanics intact...

    But personally i will go the other way and say that because of 10 mans and the balanceing of 10 to 25, we have lost the possibility of a lot of interresting mechanics or even a lot of possibilities for lore encounters imo.
    Since wotlk, there have been no mage tanks or warlock tanks. There are almost no encounters that require more than 2 tanks. Challenging encounters like kael'thas or lady vashj (the original) would not work under the new regime. Or take the original 4 horsemen battle(granted a 40 man but still). Point is when you lower the amount of available players you lower the things you can build into your encounter.

    I know the moderators dont wanna have us talk raid difficulties, so i cant bring up that point. But the physical boundaries of many encounters favor 10s.
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    But most players do accept 10s and are willing to make that adjustment. Much as they might say they prefer 25s, when they take into account the entire package, they end up going with 10s. They prefer 10s.
    So first i tell you are wrong about me and then to claim that your right because obviously thats just how it has to be in your mind. And the last sentence proves me right people prefer 25s but have to raid 10s when taking into the account the whole package.
    So apparently when comparing the 25 package to the 10 package people choose 10s because it has a better package with better incentives for raiding...

    thats weird cause you just claimed that 10s have no incentives that 25s do not have...

  5. #1025
    I do not understand how some people are saying that the decline of 25's is caused by the needs of the players rather than by Blizzard incorrect managing. The only thing one needs to do is to look a few years back to Vanilla and BC. In Vanilla , I had been in a low - medium populated server that had 8~ 40men! raiding guilds. At least 4 of these guilds raided AQ40 and Naxx. In BC , in a different server , but also a low - medium one , there were 12~ 25men raiding guilds , and about 5 of them raided The Black Temple and Sunwell. Now , the same server with an increased population has only 2 25men raiding guilds , and they have not cleared everything yet.

    In addition , some people might complain that a great number of individuals did not experience all of the content because they couldn't raid. That is true , but , that's the point of an achievement based game. You are not supposed to kill Illidan by just finding a random group of people that feels like killing him , in fact , you are supposed to work towards it with your guild , to gather gear and consumables until you reach that final boss and via a group effort you finally kill him. This makes the kill epic and worth investing in , in contrast to today when you have pug groups to kill Deathwing! Freaking Deathwing! The strongest Aspect of them all , one of the most feared creatures in the Warcraft lore can now be killed by a LFM group in Stormwind , some might disagree , but I think that's just sad.

    The reason this happens is because of the decreased difference between 10's and 25's in Cataclysm. Why invest in a 25men guild if one can get the same gear and rewards with 10men raids. In my opinion , the only way to save the decline of the 25's is to make it differ greatly from the 10's. For example: Not to allow access to an end - boss before a guild had been able to kill it in 25 mode , or to create a different tier just for 25's. This way , people will strive to create and manage 25's just as they did in BC.

    I just hope that MoP will fix this anomaly , and even if it wont , I will still try to enjoy the 25's I will run in it.

  6. #1026
    Quote Originally Posted by Xsy View Post
    I do not understand how some people are saying that the decline of 25's is caused by the needs of the players rather than by Blizzard incorrect managing. The only thing one needs to do is to look a few years back to Vanilla and BC. In Vanilla , I had been in a low - medium populated server that had 8~ 40men! raiding guilds. At least 4 of these guilds raided AQ40 and Naxx. In BC , in a different server , but also a low - medium one , there were 12~ 25men raiding guilds , and about 5 of them raided The Black Temple and Sunwell. Now , the same server with an increased population has only 2 25men raiding guilds , and they have not cleared everything yet.

    In addition , some people might complain that a great number of individuals did not experience all of the content because they couldn't raid. That is true , but , that's the point of an achievement based game. You are not supposed to kill Illidan by just finding a random group of people that feels like killing him , in fact , you are supposed to work towards it with your guild , to gather gear and consumables until you reach that final boss and via a group effort you finally kill him. This makes the kill epic and worth investing in , in contrast to today when you have pug groups to kill Deathwing! Freaking Deathwing! The strongest Aspect of them all , one of the most feared creatures in the Warcraft lore can now be killed by a LFM group in Stormwind , some might disagree , but I think that's just sad.

    The reason this happens is because of the decreased difference between 10's and 25's in Cataclysm. Why invest in a 25men guild if one can get the same gear and rewards with 10men raids. In my opinion , the only way to save the decline of the 25's is to make it differ greatly from the 10's. For example: Not to allow access to an end - boss before a guild had been able to kill it in 25 mode , or to create a different tier just for 25's. This way , people will strive to create and manage 25's just as they did in BC.

    I just hope that MoP will fix this anomaly , and even if it wont , I will still try to enjoy the 25's I will run in it.
    All you need to get people to run 25s is to have 25s drops marginally better versions of the gear dropping in 10s. Been a while since I was in WoW but I guess that format has changed since I stopped playing.

  7. #1027
    Quote Originally Posted by Angella View Post
    All you need to get people to run 25s is to have 25s drops marginally better versions of the gear dropping in 10s. Been a while since I was in WoW but I guess that format has changed since I stopped playing.
    Not even sure anymore if this is the case - just more drops, even faster legendary progression and more vanity loot would already make a lot of things so much easier.

  8. #1028
    Quote Originally Posted by Arawn View Post
    5 man isn't a raid its a dungeon group. A raid requires tank swaps and healing assignments and no I would prefer to raid to doing dungeons.
    i believe your conclusion is not quite correct. your argument could be used against you by saying that a 10 man group, like you said about 5 man groups, is not a raid but only a combination of two 5 man groups, for example. in a 10 man group you will normally have only one player per class, and already need to drop one class because there are 11 classes but only 10 slots in that "raid" format.

    personally, i think i would like a 15-man raid format, if it would be the only format. i do not like the existence of different raid formats with equal loot because they inevitably offer a "harder" and a "easier" way of progression, depending on the design and tuning of certain raid-encounters.

  9. #1029
    Quote Originally Posted by Donthealme View Post
    I think this highlights the top reason why Blizzard needs to undone what was done(by undo I mean 1 predominant raid size)this was the largest change in cataclysm, so by proxy it can be reasoned this is largest reason they lost subscribers....honestly at this point I dont care, make it 10 make it 25(although for me if they made it 10 I would at that point stop playing), make one raid size predominant...the community has been skewered because of this
    There is just no pleasing raiders to be honest. I can actually kind of get the direction Blizzard might be going just from the sheer amount of bitching I see from top guilds in Rift. It is just not worth it to do the content, then have the guilds shit all over you because they were actually able to clear it.

    I would focus on casuals. There were a multitude of reasons why the subs dropped in 2011 and will probably continue to drop in 2012, but I doubt this was a major one really. Every single mmo that has come out has either reduced below 25 man raiding or gotten rid of it all together.

    One of the most hyped games in years GW2 has NONE. TOR has 16 mans? The Secret World I think has 10 as the biggest size? Tera has none I think? Rift is at 20 I know for sure. Nobody is doing it anymore because raiders treat the companies like shit.
    http://raptr.com/puremallace/about

    What has been made by QQ can be unmade by QQ!!!

  10. #1030
    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    Zul gurub and zul aman old raidinstances that where recycled into 5 mans with a lot of the old mechanics intact...
    A lot? Perhaps. Not...however...all. And even were that to be true, you cannot say that for every raid. Multiple parties by their nature and make up allow for a wider variety of mechanics that would prove impossible for a standard 5 man party to meet.
    Its not a question of toning down or adjusting mechanics so a 5 man can complete the raid; its a case of removing those mechanics that a standard 5 man simply cannot meet.

    But personally i will go the other way and say that because of 10 mans and the balanceing of 10 to 25, we have lost the possibility of a lot of interresting mechanics or even a lot of possibilities for lore encounters imo.
    No....because 10s still includes multiple parties and allows for the same mechanics as 25s. You can have tank swap mechanics or split party fights with two tanks but not one. The difference between 10s and 25s in this regard is one of scale; the difference between 10s and 5s is one of possibility.

    Since wotlk, there have been no mage tanks or warlock tanks. There are almost no encounters that require more than 2 tanks. Challenging encounters like kael'thas or lady vashj (the original) would not work under the new regime. Or take the original 4 horsemen battle(granted a 40 man but still). Point is when you lower the amount of available players you lower the things you can build into your encounter.
    You've changed the scale. Not the mechanics.

    And the last sentence proves me right people prefer 25s but have to raid 10s when taking into the account the whole package.
    So apparently when comparing the 25 package to the 10 package people choose 10s because it has a better package with better incentives for raiding...
    No....it means they prefer the package that comes with 10s. There is NOTHING stopping them raiding 25s except their own unwillingness to put in the work necessary to form the raid group. That is a player created barrier.

    thats weird cause you just claimed that 10s have no incentives that 25s do not have...
    This is true. The ***raids*** don't.

    And it isn't Blizzards job to force you to raid with people you don't like.

    EJL

  11. #1031
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    One of the most hyped games in years GW2 has NONE. TOR has 16 mans? The Secret World I think has 10 as the biggest size? Tera has none I think? Rift is at 20 I know for sure. Nobody is doing it anymore because raiders treat the companies like shit.
    Sry but that's just hilarious. Look around in other forums from other games in any genre and tell me again that shit doesn't fly around in masses everywhere. It's just the better financial choice to cater to a certain type of player and that's about it.

  12. #1032
    i hope not, 25 man are the best

  13. #1033
    25 is mostly dead already.

    At this point, I believe 25 man needs higher item levels in order to actually draw people in. I also believe Blizzard doesn't want to "force" people to run 25s any more, by making those the only source of "real gear", and that this change is deliberate. In fact, I would say that almost everyone still running 25m, really friggin likes 25m, whereas before, many people ran it because that was where the gear was.

    My guild was 25, and in T11 we ended up running a lot of the content as 10ms. In Firelands, we formally split into 10m groups, into one stacked group, and one other group. In current content, the stacked group is 8/8H, and the other group is 4/8. We do split groups occasionally to help the second group get experience on progression bosses, but that isn't the same as being one big team as we used to be.

    Blizzard's policy generally looks like: they don't want to force people to do larger content, while at the same time 10m is sort of limiting for their raid design. They said openly that if the game was being designed now, they would probably do 15m. There have been a few mechanics that are trivial in 25s or 10s, and a few that have been far too hard or required perfect play in one but not the other. But no matter how things work out, Blizzard can't make a 25m and a 10m similar enough for an old 25m guild. Many guilds had a pretty strong diversity of playskill, and those guilds were ripe to transition to 10m, because previously my challenge as GM was to fill a roster of 25 excellent players, and that is harder than finding a roster of 10, because 25 is a bigger number than 10. The adage "every 25 has a stronger 10 inside it" only ceases to apply to the very top guilds.


    So yea, Bliz will let 25s decline, while throwing them perks that most players don't even understand (it's better to make 5 pieces of gear for 25 people than to make 2 pieces for 10, because then people actually get the pieces that they need instead of the second two hander going to offspec or dench), or that only benefit a minority (Progress your legendary at twice the rate! This only affects one dude per tier!). For the average player, these advantages mean nothing.

  14. #1034
    The ONLY reason 25 mans are dying out is because the majority of people prefer playing 10 mans. Everyone may have a different reason why they prefer it, but it's the choice the vast majority make. There doesn't need to be incentives to do one raid size over the other. Just play what you choose to play. If you can't find 24 other people that are of the same mindset, you can't blame Blizzard for that.

    I'm a former 25 man raid leader. I've raided 25 mans for 3 expansions now, but honestly I am perfectly happy with my guild switching to 10 mans. With 25 man raiding, I had a roster of 30 people that I'd switch in from week to week. That always bothered me as well as my raiders because no one likes being the one left out. With 10 mans, I've been able to just have 1 or 2 extra people that know they aren't in the main raid team, but are happy to jump in any time if necessary. No bad blood. No feeling from my raiders that they might show up and not be invited. It just feels better.

    Now again, I know some of you posting here will say you like 25 mans and that's perfectly fine. I just don't want anyone to be under the assumption that Blizzard has any responsibility whatsoever to "save" 25 mans. If the community is over them, then that's just how it goes. Remember a huge portion of the subscriber base doesn't raid at all. The little raiding they do see might be in a LFR environment. If when people do choose to raid, it's with 9 people instead of 24, then great. I wish them success.

  15. #1035
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    In fact, I would say that almost everyone still running 25m, really friggin likes 25m
    This statement is true for 25s today.
    The same cannot be said for the 10 man.
    You are one more living examble of that fact.

    This thread is full of them.

    It was the perfect moment to swap to a 15 people single size raid system!

    As it has been stated many many times, this model (10/25) is dead.

    To continue with this for another expansion is a very unfortunate mistake.
    Still, they do excactly that

  16. #1036
    There's a lot of folks in this here argument.. er, thread, that are just shouting back and forth at each other.

    Lets all agree that the problem with 25 man raiding is a simple matter of incentive;

    Blizzard's perspective Evolved over the years

    First, it was "There is no incentive to raid anything except 40 or 25 mans because these are the only raids available.

    When that first 10 man got off the line, 10 mans had the same restrictions as the current raid finder runs; lower quality gear for the casual player. Blizzard gave incentive to raid 25 mans over 10s. It was obvious. The only reason to do both was to max out the weekly points to get certain gear.

    However... there is now less incentive to run not only 25 mans... but also 10 mans! Not because of gear issues, but because of seeing-content issues. The truth is, there's been 13 tiers of darn gear now, plus dungeon sets. Most players just aren't going to devote time to being in the best gear when it keeps getting replaced every few months. They don't need it to compete in raid finder, and yet using RF they can still see the same exact content.


    Bottom line: Blizzard has decided to take the stance that the incentive to raid comes from the player. Let the player choose which raid he wants to do; the player has decided. Want to know a secret? The TRUE death of the 25 man will come when 10 mans demand (and finally receive) a less RNG heavy drop chance, i.e. the boss dropping gear that THEY can use. This will have the direct result of removing the last incentive from 25 mans, that of an easier time getting the gear they want instead of the shard they don't need.


    PS. to the moron above saying "Friends don't make you do anything..." when was the last time a stranger walked up to you and peer pressured you into smoking a cigarette? Seriously.
    Last edited by kraizee; 2012-04-30 at 09:57 PM.

  17. #1037
    Quote Originally Posted by kraizee View Post
    Bottom line: Blizzard has decided to take the stance that the incentive to raid comes from the player. Let the player choose which raid he wants to do; the player has decided. Want to know a secret? The TRUE death of the 25 man will come when 10 mans demand (and finally receive) a less RNG heavy drop chance, i.e. the boss dropping gear that THEY can use. This will have the direct result of removing the last incentive from 25 mans, that of an easier time getting the gear they want instead of the shard they don't need.


    PS. to the moron above saying "Friends don't make you do anything..." when was the last time a stranger walked up to you and peer pressured you into smoking a cigarette? Seriously.
    Ah yes per pressure the terrible problem of 8 year old girls and teenagers. Be strong enough yourself to say no to you friends if they do not respect your no they do not respect you. So yes it is a maturity problem you have to be mature enough to say no even to your friends.
    The guy response here is: grow a pair of balls and just say no if you dont want to do things.
    The harry potter response Dumbledore:"And finally, it takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to your enemies, but a great deal more to stand up to your friends. I award ten points to Neville Longbottom"

    secondly 25 have loot problems to and i will have to quote my own story here:
    now imagine this and it is a real story 25 man group they raid and raid and raid and 9 weeks after chogall died still no healer trinket has dropped but that damned 2 handed axe keeps dropping(till the point where everybody and their mother has said axe). Then finally the trinket drops hurrah for 1 of 8 healers on our squad. Point is 25s dont get the items they want 10s dont always get the items they want. in my opinion they are equally fucked getting they equip of their desires.
    And concerning said axe a lot of other items also rather quickly become unwanted pala healing boots or bracers, if it drops sure you can equip the tank with heal gear to exept he is 100% of the time in the raid as a tank. And after that you will also begin dissing the damned things. I wont deny that 10s de things but apparently you completely overlook that 25s do that to and that loot end up filling the bags of some peoples off spec that they never use in the raid effectly making that loot you another shard. Or that people in 25s also just wait week after week for their turn on a piece of loot that might never drop.

    Edit: I would claim that the time it takes for the whole raid to end up in BiS maingear is the same for 10s and 25s because they are subjected to the same bad drop luck, where unsuable things drop and even multiple unusable things drop.
    But yes if you run alt runs mixed with mains to speed main gear progression 25s will be faster but only by eliminating class/specc competetion, but normal casual/medicore raidguilds dont do that. Look to the hardcore raiders for that you know like those getting banned in the first week of lfr for abusing lfr...
    But if both raid guilds have 1 raid a week same time till bis gear completion for the whole guild whether it be 10 or 25.

    Sry to burst your bubble of almost religious belief that only 10s have problems getting the loot that they want.

  18. #1038
    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    Ah yes per pressure the terrible problem of 8 year old girls and teenagers. Be strong enough yourself to say no to you friends if they do not respect your no they do not respect you. So yes it is a maturity problem you have to be mature enough to say no even to your friends.
    Peer pressure is a problem for many groups that aren't 8 year old girls or teenagers.

    As it is, you may want to dsmiss or disregard the idea....but you have to live with the fact Blizzard (and others) believes it exists in game.

    Sry to burst your bubble of almost religious belief that only 10s have problems getting the loot that they want.
    Both 10s and 25s have issues due to the RNG nature of the drop mechanic. And Blizzards decision to remove VPs as a source of gear to compensate for bad luck isn't one of its better ones.

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2012-04-30 at 10:40 PM.

  19. #1039
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    A lot? Perhaps. Not...however...all. And even were that to be true, you cannot say that for every raid. Multiple parties by their nature and make up allow for a wider variety of mechanics that would prove impossible for a standard 5 man party to meet.
    Its not a question of toning down or adjusting mechanics so a 5 man can complete the raid; its a case of removing those mechanics that a standard 5 man simply cannot meet.



    No....because 10s still includes multiple parties and allows for the same mechanics as 25s. You can have tank swap mechanics or split party fights with two tanks but not one. The difference between 10s and 25s in this regard is one of scale; the difference between 10s and 5s is one of possibility.



    You've changed the scale. Not the mechanics.



    No....it means they prefer the package that comes with 10s. There is NOTHING stopping them raiding 25s except their own unwillingness to put in the work necessary to form the raid group. That is a player created barrier.



    This is true. The ***raids*** don't.

    And it isn't Blizzards job to force you to raid with people you don't like.

    EJL
    Compare zul aman 10 man and zul aman 5 man its the same boss mechanics exept as you say for the tank swaps. but we got the lightning storm we got bear charge we got hatching eggs etc... But yes no tank swaps, but breaking up the group just look at the harvester encounter in deadmines "one player takes care of the harvester and the others kill the boss. the encounter has been practicly broken up into to encounter in one...
    You could probably make 2 horsemen like encounter in a 5 man raid when you take the mechanic of the encounter from 10 man with the two horsemen at the back end.
    Heck you could probably even make a 5 man raid encounter with an off tank with tank swaps if you took the naxx drillmaster encounter orbs build them into an encounter and let a dps take over an add and offtank the boss while a debuff runs of the tank.
    But what about mages and warlocks tanking stuff off like in tbc. Like warlock tank on leotheras the blind in ssc, where the warlock tank the boss in one of the phases, you cant do this today because 10s aren't sure of having a warlock on the roster 25s would very likely have a warlock on the roster.
    Also just saying you changed the scales, terrible argument for how we dont have fights like lady vashj where hunters kite aoe fearing mobs, while the tanks tank adds. We havent got encounters now a days that require more than 2 tanks. No encounters with hunters range tanking (which is what kiting is).

    regarding your people who prefer 25s look at the package of 10s and prefer 10s then statement and contradiction. if they preferred 25s they would choose 25s but they prefer 25s but choose 10s because its got a better package. must mean that comparing packages 25s package<< 10 package. 10 package better has more incentives or incentives that 25s do not have.


    In the end they schould just make somekind of unisize. Because the constant woops we cant balance it right between the 2 socalled equal difficulties is just annoying.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-30 at 10:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Peer pressure is a problem for many groups that aren't 8 year old girls or teenagers.

    As it is, you may want to dsmiss or disregard the idea....but you have to live with the fact Blizzard (and others) believes it exists in game.



    Both 10s and 25s have issues due to the RNG nature of the drop mechanic. And Blizzards decision to remove VPs as a source of gear to compensate for bad luck isn't one of its better ones.

    EJL
    take it as possibility to grow up i can recommend reading this blog on the subject for you http://www.thefriendshipblog.com/blo...san-newman-phd
    or this http://www.thefriendshipblog.com/blog/7-tips-saying-no

    And yes it is a blog written by women but women are more evolved then men. and yea got no real proof for women being more evolved but men so take it or leave it
    Last edited by Dax75; 2012-04-30 at 10:59 PM.

  20. #1040
    "Most people don't want to arrange 24 other people"

    This. My guild found it hard to keep 25 people consistantly coming back every week, especially if you weren't THAT hardcore, and were in progression. We moved to 10 because we were all friends, and all worked very well together and at the most 1 was out vs like 5 or 6 when we did 25s.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •