Blizzard will let 25 mans die?

[kargar]

There seems to be a large number of people who desire to raid 25 man dungeons, and do not want to see that raid format die.
Find each other in game and make a 25 man guild.

Also, people said 25 man raids would die in cata when it was discovered that the rewards for each version were the same. Guess what, they didn't.
Most serious progression guilds are still 25, and most people in the raiding community consider 25 to be the proper means to high end progression.
Some wont even consider 10 man world firsts over 25.

they havent died fully but they are close my server went from having around 6-7 hm hardcore 25man guilds to 3 25mans out of 25 guilds which have cleared HM DS. they are also all alliance for the record so my server has no good horde 25mans. Now maby the problem is with stuff outside of game mechanics but its in blizz's game and they could fix this by either giveing 25mans more perks or removing 10's and 25's and making 15mans.

[Talen]

they havent died fully but they are close my server went from having around 6-7 hm hardcore 25man guilds to 3 25mans out of 25 guilds which have cleared HM DS. they are also all alliance for the record so my server has no good horde 25mans. Now maby the problem is with stuff outside of game mechanics but its in blizz's game and they could fix this by either giveing 25mans more perks or removing 10's and 25's and making 15mans.

Neither of which is likely to happen. Giving 25s perks simply destroys the current raid model. As does making 25s easier to compensate for organisational difficulties. And moving to a single raid size has several issues....which probably makes 10 man raids a more likely scenario.

EJL

[Nestoras]

No, it can't. You don't meet your own criteria #1 in that poll, as it is not a representative cluster of all MMO-C readers. It represents only the subset of forum-goers who visit Raids & Dungeons.

This poll is not the only one.
This sub-forum also is not the only place in this site that the matter is being discusses.
It is not even the only site the matter is being discussed. Quite a few topics on the matter have been raised even in the official EU and US forums.
Always the single size idea and particularly the 15 people single size idea, is having more supporters than opponents.
In fact, most of the people not being in favor of this idea, are mostly concerned about current teams and how they will adapt.
Well, thousands of 25s have been destroyed for a stupid raiding model. This is a fresh, more functional and fair model, why guild’s adaptation to it should be the main argument for such a change not to happen, if it is for the better?

Giving 25s perks simply destroys the current raid model.

You are acting like this raiding model is actually Blizzard's masterpiece.
I haven't seen so many complains about a raiding model in past expansions.
I haven't seen decline in subs in past expansions.
I haven't seen a strong desire to change the sizes we raid in the past expansions.

Still for you it is a masterpiece, but you don't state it as a personal opinion only, but you re trying to convince others to accept it!

[Donthealme]

You are acting like this raiding model is actually Blizzard's masterpiece.
I haven't seen so many complains about a raiding model in past expansions.
I haven't seen decline in subs in past expansions.
I haven't seen a strong desire to change the sizes we raid in the past expansions.

Still for you it is a masterpiece, but you don't state it as a personal opinion only, but you re trying to convince others to accept it!

This is exactly true, and this is the hard evidence. You can point to other reasons, but the one major change for cata was the two raid sizes....you try and say the content did it....did you not play T7 and T9??? By far the two worst tiers EVER and no subscriber drop, this thread has turned into the Talen try to convince everyone the changes are amazing...they aren't they divided the raiding community, they dropped the in game population. No matter what you say you MUST take all factors into account, and that includes the players and the management of said players, of managing 24 instead of 9. Saying that people are happy to raid points to me to saying you raid casually and thus that is what your experience draws from....typically players like that raided for loot anyway and the more I read your comments it seems all you are fighting for is loot and mounts and legendaries. No where have you listed HM encounters, balances, etc.

Couldn't have said it more perfectly Nestoras

[Deleted]

I think you are overlooking the main problem with your arguments.

Its NOT a problem with the game or raid model. Its a problem with the community and really, its one Blizzard has no control over.

Are 25s fun? Yes.
Do they deserve to remain part of the game? Yes
Are they valuable enough to force people to play them? No.

25s falling off in popularity would be a problem for the game and a problem Blizzard would need to address if it had some wider impact of some sort. To date, that doesn't appear to be the case.

As usuall Telen ur totally missing the entire point by a million miles...

The issue is PROGRESS raiding.

Its not a discussion about what the most fun... typical response from someone who hasnt progress raided basically. Ur showing that u have never progress raided with your analysis constantly in this thread.

In PROGRESS raiding the competitive guilds will all fight to become the top guild on each realm by downing bosses first. And simply because 10man is the raid of choice (most argue cos its much easier but that is not in discussion here) then all the top guilds r dropping 25man and choosing 10man. This is the main reason why 25man guilds r dying and this reason alone.

U have failed to recognise that gamers will ALWAYS look for the fastest route to a goal and all the time we have 2 different raid formats then one of those formats will be the format of choice... right now its 10man. This has zero to do with what players prefer or how much fun they have... its ALL about downing bosses first in the competeitve world of PROGRESS raiding.

The truth is that it does work and work very well. What you and others tend to mean when saying otherwise is that it doesn't artificially inflate the number of people doing 25s and having read through similar arguments before...thats what they all come down to.

No, what i and all the others are saying is that all the time 10 and 25man raids exist raiding is not balanced and fair... and this effects PROGRESS raiding 100%.

Ok ill use the story of what happened on my realm during Firelands to highlight exactly how this latest teir of raiding has impacted negatively on Wow raiders and players.

The best guild on Draenor since Vanilla was Chimaera, they have almost every single realm first since Vanilla and downed everything 40man or 25man over all those years. They were easily recognised as the best guild on our Realm and every member was respected and well loved in equal measure. They went throughout Wrath getting every realm first 25man and into Cataclysm continued to get the realm firsts... then came Firelands.

They were already struggling with membership issues and having to replace members much more often than ever before, but then came up against Raggy heroic 25man. They were the first guild to reach the fight on Draenor and struggled on it for many weeks. They continued to try up until the first nerf of the content at which time they made the shock announcement they were all quitting Wow...

Their official announcement was that firstly, they didnt agree with nerfing the content and secondly they admitted they couldnt kill the boss and had enough of constantly recruiting throughout Cataclycm to keep up 25man. They didnt want to drop to 10man as they saw that as too easy and all decided to leave Wow and play other games.

Now... there was 2 other very good 25man guilds at that time, Hostile and Old School. Both of these guys saw thier chance to grab the glory and stepped up the work to grab the realm first now up for grabs since the best guild was no longer in the race... within the first lockout of the nerfing Hostile downed it... but wait... they did it 10man!!!!

Now Talen, u probably cant work out the issues here cos u dont progress raid... but a 25man guild dropping to 10man to get the fight created massive uproar on our realm. When u look at the details it becomes more apparent, firstly, Hostile had 2 heroic staffs in their 10man group when not a single 10man had got one yet simply cos it wasnt possible at that time (they needed more weeks to complete the quest). Secondly, they had left out 15 players of their own guild to get this realm first so thats 15 pissed off players within their own guild who never got the realm first achievement, thats 15 players who put in loads of work to get the guild to that position who were sidelined for the glory of 10.

This was the first time in Draenor history that we had ever had a CONTROVERSIAL realm first. What followed was a whole world of hate being directed at Hostile, the guild who downed it and we were seeing something new, arguing and nastiness directed at the guild who had effectively "cheated" their way to the realm first by EXPLOITING the currect broken raiding system.

It wasnt seen as fair game to drop from 25man to 10man just to grab the realm first, they were seen to have stooped very low indeed. Within a month Hostile broke up and their leader left the realm... all down to the hatred thrown around our progress raiding community. Gone are the days of cheering and complimenting the best guild for realm firsts on Draenor, now we have something new... arguing and exploiting.

Note Draenor is the top Horde populated PvE realm EU so its not some backwater nothing realm...

[Talen]

Always the single size idea and particularly the 15 people single size idea, is having more supporters than opponents.

Amongst people who bother to speak...most of whom will, by the nature of the system, be those who don't like the current system.

You are acting like this raiding model is actually Blizzard's masterpiece.
I haven't seen so many complains about a raiding model in past expansions.

Really? I recall all sorts of complaints about previous models and resizing and the locking of content to certain formats and other various issues.

I don't see those complaints anymore. I see the same few people going around creating multiple threads on the same topic of how 25s are dying and how shared lockouts are a bad idea, partially because of the way it impacted 25s.

I haven't seen decline in subs in past expansions.

And tying them into the raid model is pushing an assertion without proof. There may be 1 or 2 of thisoe 2 million or so who left who did so solely because of the raid model. It likely isn't going to be much more.

Still for you it is a masterpiece, but you don't state it as a personal opinion only, but you re trying to convince others to accept it!

It has its flaws. But I see nothing wrong with Blizzard moving to the model it has. I've seen and lived through the issues the previous raid models had and had to deal with the problems those caused my guilds. Shared lockouts mean I no longer have to try and schedule time for multiple runs a week. Shared lockouts means that when I do have the time to do so, I can gear up my alts. Removing the artificial incentives to support 25s means that the raid system is more flexible. I've had to switch to 10 mans several times and that meant having my progress on the heroic modes held up due to a lack of players was doubly annoying.

What do **I** give up for this "masterpiece"? Nothing. I can raid with my friends and my guild. I can see the content. And I can have fun in both 25s and 10s, in normals and heroics. The shared lockout doesn't affect me...I run alts when I feel the need to do so. Am I obligated to run multiple raids per week to keep up with the progression? No. Am I obligated to help out my guild and friends? About as much as ever but now I'm freer to use an alt to do so.

Am I supposed to feel guilty because some people have difficulty getting into 25s yet won't form their own? I don't.
Will I feel bad if my own guild downsizes to 10s permanently? Or kicks me out? A little. But I can live with 10s.

Do I support incentivising 25s? No, I don't. If they can't survive on their own merits...they don't deserve to. No extra titles, achievements, mounts, or other rewards. Reward those who lead the raid...not the raid.

You can point to other reasons, but the one major change for cata was the two raid sizes....you try and say the content did it....did you not play T7 and T9??? By far the two worst tiers EVER and no subscriber drop, this thread has turned into the Talen try to convince everyone the changes are amazing...they aren't they divided the raiding community, they dropped the in game population. No matter what you say you MUST take all factors into account, and that includes the players and the management of said players, of managing 24 instead of 9. Saying that people are happy to raid points to me to saying you raid casually and thus that is what your experience draws from....typically players like that raided for loot anyway and the more I read your comments it seems all you are fighting for is loot and mounts and legendaries. No where have you listed HM encounters, balances, etc.

He pinned 2 million sub losses on a new raiding format.

He's wrong. Raiding has always been a minority interest in WoW. Which is why the TotGC setup didn't have that big an impact. It only affected a relatively small segment of the gaming base. What got the player base in Cataclysm was the lack of end game. Nothing to do meant nothing to keep the players in the game. You see the same effect in SWTOR. I dunno about you, but I'm, seeing a lot of players leave that game because the end game is so bad, so limited and having other options available means they don't have to put up with it. Maybe its just me, but I'm seeing a lot of those players return to WoW....although i expect they'll be flitting between the two for some time.

Tying both the "divided" community and the subs loss into this one issue...this one relatively MINOR issue....is more than little premature, more than a little off the mark and most likely wrong. Had the raid model really been responsible for 2m lost subs....Blizz would have dumped it. Instead they've acknowledged non-raid end game content was lacking and moved to correct that issue, leaving the current raid model relatively intact.

In PROGRESS raiding the competitive guilds will all fight to become the top guild on each realm by downing bosses first. And simply because 10man is the raid of choice (most argue cos its much easier but that is not in discussion here) then all the top guilds r dropping 25man and choosing 10man. This is the main reason why 25man guilds r dying and this reason alone.

I don't see that as an issue.
I don't see that as a problem.
I don't even see it as necessarily accurate.

U have failed to recognise that gamers will ALWAYS look for the fastest route to a goal

<sigh> No. I recognise that is a factor. A strong factor to some. I don't see it as a concern. If people prefer 10s because its the fastest way to their goal....who am I to tell them they are wrong?

This has zero to do with what players prefer or how much fun they have... its ALL about downing bosses first in the competeitve world of PROGRESS raiding.

Wait.

I have to find my "caring" face.

Seriously.....I applaud the effort and skill the progression guilds make. They are "better" at the game than I. And if thats how they get their fun, good for them.

Most players won't ever be anywhere near that league. I see no reason why Blizzard should try and design for a few hundred, even a couple of thousand players, when they have a game with MILLIONS of subscribers.

The raid model has to work for most of those who use it.

No, what i and all the others are saying is that all the time 10 and 25man raids exist raiding is not balanced and fair...

Its meant to be equal...within limits.

Now Talen, u probably cant work out the issues here cos u dont progress raid... but a 25man guild dropping to 10man to get the fight created massive uproar on our realm.

I'm sure it did.

I fail to see how the old "25s deserve to be the best" routine is going to work any better in this story though.

You had a guild that was highly successful, came up against content it couldn't beat and then left en masse. Then the group that did it concentrated their DPS by having 2 legendaries and benching 10 other players and the server threw a fit because somehow they "cheated", exploiting the fact Blizzard made the legendary quicker to get in 25s to boost their DPS in 10s.

WoW. Talk about hissy fits. Either way, this is not the fault of the raid model.

This was the first time in Draenor history that we had ever had a CONTROVERSIAL realm first. What followed was a whole world of hate being directed at Hostile, the guild who downed it and we were seeing something new, arguing and nastiness directed at the guild who had effectively "cheated" their way to the realm first by EXPLOITING the currect broken raiding system.

No. They exploited the fact Blizzard made the legendary too accessible and common. Dropping from 25s to 10 and benching those other players - thats a guild issue. Were they happy for their guild mates? Did they have any say? if they weren't happy - that says a lot about the people in that guild and little about the pros and cons of the raid model. The fact they broke up shortly thereafter is also telling.

Seriously....you are suggesting Blizzard should create a raid model that incoveneicnes millions for the sake of a couple of hundred players. And haven't shown any reason why it would be better for those as well. Guild rama isn't something new

EJL

[Reddawg]

I miss the feel of 25 man raids...my server is basically down to 10 mans now. Alot of old good 25 man guilds are now dead and gone....sad days

[Deleted]

Seriously....you are suggesting Blizzard should create a raid model that incoveneicnes millions for the sake of a couple of hundred players. And haven't shown any reason why it would be better for those as well. Guild rama isn't something new

EJL

U prove yet again u dont even read what we are all saying...

I dont care one bit if the raid model is 10man, 25man, 100man or 3man... i want ONE raid size and one raid size only.

Two raid sizes with an attempt to 'balance' them is utterly impossible. Whats happened in Cataclysm was 100% prediactable by progress raiders, and thats the fact that one of the 2 raid formats would die out at the expense of the other....

So the only point here is to get rid of two raid formats and make it one size only...

ONE RAID SIZE WE CAN SEE WHO IS THE BEST GUILD ON EACH REALM WITHOUT ARGUMENT OR CONROVERSY.

[Talen]

Two raid sizes with an attempt to 'balance' them is utterly impossible.

In so far as making them perfectly equal in all apsects? Yes. In so far as making them reasonably equal over the entire course of the raid? No.

Whats happened in Cataclysm was 100% prediactable by progress raiders, and thats the fact that one of the 2 raid formats would die out at the expense of the other....

Everyone saw it. Even Blizzard did. The question is should they do something to fix it?

The answer is no. I like 25s, but providing artifical incentives to support a format most raiders and players aren't bothered with and don't engage in isn't an answer. One raid size would have been a better solution and still has a lot to offer, but having settled on a dual size 10/25 man format for the past several years moving to that system has issues. That Blizzard has amditted it is a good size doens't make it any easier to move over to it.

ONE RAID SIZE WE CAN SEE WHO IS THE BEST GUILD ON EACH REALM WITHOUT ARGUMENT OR CONROVERSY.

"Best guild on the server" is a title some care about and some don't. Either way, it is still an astoundingly poor criteria to base a raid model on.

EJL

[cFortyfive]

The answer is no.

Well you might believe that - I am still 100% sure that there is nothing wrong supporting the people who put in more work to keep their raids going.

[Talen]

Well you might believe that - I am still 100% sure that there is nothing wrong supporting the people who put in more work to keep their raids going.

There is nothing wrong with rewarding the raid leaders. As in, the people who actually do perform that work.
Thats different from rewarding a 25 man raider simply for turning up.

If people prefer 25s, its up to the player base to form an acceptable group. Its not Blizzards job to do so. They've provided the LFR system for pick ups but, as this system stands, I do not believe it would be a good move to reward 25s differently, or better, nor do I believe 25s are deserving of such treatment. If you prefer 25s, join or create a group. Don't expect Blizzard to reward you better simply for doing the same thing a 10 man raider would do.

EJL

[Deleted]

Considering the fact that its much harder in the raid to organize where people stand etc. and for everybody in the raid to respond perfectly to an encounters mechanics in 25s than in 10s. Why do people still claim that its only the raidleader putting in extra. the officers and the raiders to bring in extra compared to 10 mans.
In the raids themselves youve got more moving parts and if you have to fine adjust 25 instead of 10 parts it takes more time.

[Talen]

Considering the fact that its much harder in the raid to organize where people stand etc. and for everybody in the raid to respond perfectly to an encounters mechanics in 25s than in 10s. Why do people still claim that its only the raidleader putting in extra. the officers and the raiders to bring in extra compared to 10 mans.

Because if the raid is balanced as Blizzard intended, the increased difficulty in placement is offset by a reduced difficulty elsewhere. The overall effect is that the raiders put in the same effort for a raid of similar difficulty whether they do 10s or 25s and cherry picking one or two mechanics to showcase this highly irrelevant and misleading argument is simply trying to misdirect the debate.

Are there nechanics which are easier on 10s than 25s? Yes. And vice versa
Is it Blizzards intention that the raids are equally balanced, within reason? Yes.
Do they succeed? Not all the time, but neither do they fail all the time either. And the difference in difficulty levels is, IMO, not really that great in many encounters.

So...if we ignore the nitpicking about specific mechanics, do the raiders tend to put in the same amount of work regardless of format? IMO.... generally speaking, they do.

EJL

[Keoren]

Do they succeed? Not all the time, but neither do they fail all the time either. And the difference in difficulty levels is, IMO, not really that great in many encounters.

I will respectfully disagree. It is practically impossible to reasonably balance a tier full of complicated encounters. Each of the fights will vary in difficulty between the sizes, and even small differences can end up being very notable.

One of the not so obvious problems is also that even if we assume a balanced situation where tier X is easier on 25-man and tier Y is easier on 10-man, the results may be quite devastating to some guilds. Guilds will downgrade to 10-man for progression during the latter, but very few will upgrade to 25-man during the former. Even in this scenario, the amount of 25-man guilds will eventually shrink.


I still see one of the solutions being an achievement tag for whether an encounter was completed on 10- or 25-man. It should allow for slightly easier recruitment for the 25-man guilds while possibly increasing the common interest for the format, without giving the size any additional rewards.

I think it's a bad idea giving either of them an advantage in rewards over the other, but they should be acknowledged as not being the exact same content.

[Deleted]

I hope nope.
Reason is everytime im doing a alt run 10-Ds i'm getting so frustated because of people beeing braindead.
Most of the runs either are ending after 1st boss or after 2second boss.....
Really miss the 25-man guilds because there you could be trained rather than now that simply everyone can play as an **......
In 25-man you learned how to stay out of fire and many things that at some point you start to enjoy them rather than now that in 10-man ....WTF Is fire? A yes the only fire is the braindead people than dont know actually they're class and to enjoy the game.
10-mans are playing only for the loots and that why the game has become an obsesion with the loots.
Hey im playing bad im always dying but i also want everything.

[BigToast]

Blizzard will not "let 25 mans die." They left the choice up to the community. If they die it simply means many more players want 10s. They left the ball in our court.

[IsoLovesYou]

If you look at the recruitment forums on the Blizzard site, almost every 10m guild that enjoyed an 8/8H clear is up sizing to 25m for MoP.

[Vook]

Some wont even consider 10 man world firsts over 25.

That's because difficulty seems to vary between 10man and 25man. IE, Hagara HM is a joke on 25man but really hard on 10man. (in comparison.) But the general perception of 10man is that it's easier. IIRC, near the end of my guild's 25man H Rag progession, they tried it on 10man; spent the first couple of hours wiping, but the next night, they killed it on the third try.

If Blizzard would actually balance difficulty perfectly, nobody would argue that "25man is proper".

As for "25mans dying"...yes, they are. In the two servers I play on, pretty much 75-90% of the 25man raiding guilds went 10man some time during cata. It's part of Blizzard's philosophy of not forcing people to do 25mans to get the best gear/content. And it's kinda true, too. The incentive to run 25man is what...more badges? Less RNG on gear? While the cons of having to coordinate 25 players instead of 10, as well as deal with things like lag (for those who don't have good computers) and such. Not enough pros to outweigh the cons.

TBH I'd like to see them go to something like 15man or 20man like Rift does, and have that as the one raid size. But then people would just QQ about "omg I can't do my 10mans anymore have to find 10 more people!" and such. Oh well, such is the fate of WoW...

[Talen]

I will respectfully disagree. It is practically impossible to reasonably balance a tier full of complicated encounters. Each of the fights will vary in difficulty between the sizes, and even small differences can end up being very notable.

Or cancel out. IMO, they cancel out quite a bit. It is however a matter of opinion whether Blizzard is successful....IMO, they are.

I still see one of the solutions being an achievement tag for whether an encounter was completed on 10- or 25-man.

I don't. That effect simply emphasises a difference that is not suppseod to exist and whcih should, at best, be minimal. There is nothing to be gained by drawing attention to such differences, especially becasue it emans one version will be seen as superior and people will simply raid to get that achievement.

It should allow for slightly easier recruitment for the 25-man guilds

Providing the incentive of a new achievement in order to attract people to a certain raid format is NOT what Blizzard apparently want to do. You can argue the achievement doesn't affect gameplay, but it is still a reward in its own right.

while possibly increasing the common interest for the format, without giving the size any additional rewards.

The achievement IS a reward. Pets, mounts and titles are also seen as rewards. Gear is a reward. So yes, if you allow both 10 and 25 version of the achievement, people will raid for both. If you only allow one, them one version will be seen as the most prestigious and people will raid for that. In essence, it solves nothing.

I think it's a bad idea giving either of them an advantage in rewards over the other, but they should be acknowledged as not being the exact same content.

They can't be. First, because that is not Blizzards aim; they are effectively the same content in every way Blizzrad can control. Secondly, beacuse you can't provide a differentiation in reward without it being seen as a reward in its own right.

EJL

[JBradbeer]

whatever makes them more money