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  1. #1781
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    You aren't understanding - because your math is off, you divided the DPS by ten and by 25 and didn't allow for the fact that if you properly equalised the two raids out by manpower you should have 5-6 tanks and 8-10 healers in the 25. DPS is higher req in 25 man because DPS make up more of the raid. Christ.
    well don't blame me when you write stuff like this without thinking. And honestly the little calculations where only done to show how absolutlety stupid the thing that you wrote was.

  2. #1782
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    well don't blame me when you write stuff like this without thinking.
    That was outlining why all DPS and HPS comparisons are worthless.

    So now you can stop doing rhem.

    Je-sus.
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  3. #1783
    yes that particularly up there with your made up 25 man setup vs 10 man is worthless except for showing that your an idiot.
    <snip>
    and sry again to the moderators that i am bordering on good tone for the forum.

    Infracted - Wilderness
    Last edited by Wilderness; 2012-06-18 at 11:37 AM.

  4. #1784
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    There have been many fights were the dps requirements on top level have been totally scewed in favor of 10 man.
    And what you are failing to ask is "why?".

    And don't tell me that top 10 mans are rolling without BoM/MotW buff or any other for that matter.
    A comp of 7 people can bring all the buffage required today and top guilds have them all on.
    Actually - its fairly irrelevant what top guilds can do. Blizzard doesn't balance around the cutting edge. And with good reason. The fact that top guilds can bring all the buffs in a 10 man situation doesn't matter.....because Blizzard cannot, at this time, guarantee that all buffs will be present or at least, that they'll have a decent chance of being present. There are too many possible combinations of classes and specs in a 10 man that result in critical raid buffs being missed.

    That's one of the reasons balancing 10s and 25s wrt is so hard.

    You are approaching this debate as if every group had an ideal set up....and thats one of many assumptions you make that is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    any guild can bring all the buffs they just have to build their raid properly.
    No. They can't. Not in 10s. Especially with Blizzards drive to "BTPNTC". When balancing the system, they can either assume all buffs are present, messing up those groups where they aren't, or assume only some/most are present...making things easier for groups with them all. The buff consolidation coming in MoP will hopefully alleviate this issue.

    Balancing an encounter around people making stupid setups all melee or people playing non optimal speccs for certain encounters...
    Which players actually do. Fortunately, or unfortunately (depending on your pov), Blizzard tries to accomodate a lot of different styles of play. Encounters need healers, tanks, DPS. After that, it gets a little more vague.

    If anything maybe blizzard again schould just break it up and make it a wrath model again then they can balance 10 to be able to include every moronic setup that you can think off.
    Which would be a viable solution if you can think of another solution to the various issues that model brought to the game. In the unlikely event that you do, you could send the suggestion to Blizzard.

    I am asking you however to show me the factors, that make you say, that things have been balanced out.

    and yes i am quite fixated on the question because you fail to answer it, dodge it or just plain move the responsibility of answering it.
    I have answered it. You just don't like the answer. I will reword my response.

    Blizzard balance the game around a number of factors. One of these factors is intra group coordination. Blizzard will adjust various features of an encounter such as health, timers, ranges, etc in order to bring the encounter to the difficulty level it wants it to have.

    Coordination will be one factor which they likely consider as part of that process.

    Now, you may not like the thought that Blizzard do consider coordination when balancing difficulties but as we know they are aware of the issues involved, it seems foolhardy to continue to make the argument they don't. You ask what factors they use to adjust? Health, timers, damage, ranges, etc. All the normal tools they use to balance the encounter. You seem to be asking for some unique mechanic or system Blizzard use to adjust for coordination and the increased chance of player error, but when one is pointed out - 3 CRs - you call it laughable and ask for something more meaningful. When its pointed out that Blizzard adjusts a lot of factors to bring an encounter to a desired level of difficulty, you again dismiss this as a non-answer.

    Why? If Blizzard adjusts a raid for difficulty and accounts for coordination as part of that process - which seems very likely - why is it unacceptable, to you, that their normal tools for balancing an encounter might be sufficient to also account for difficulties in coordination.

    Well i think after all that different sources have stated in this very long thread and from personal experience. Its not a claim its reality that the balance just ain't there and things aren't equal.
    This thread is filled with people who state encounter X is more difficult in 10s and others who claim, just as fervently that they are wrong, that it is harder in 25s. I think its a bit of a stretch to move from that situation to claiming "all that different sources" - as thats only true if you dismiss the personal experience of others who have a different opinion than yourself. My personal experience,with the classes I run, with the groups I run with, is that some encounters are easier than others....and that the group I am with, and the class I play also has an effect.

    YOUR personal experience may tell you that one format is routinely harder, even discounting the logistics side and simply considering the actual raid. Good. I can't dispute that. I see no reason to. MY personal experience, OTOH, tells me that some encounters are easier in 10s, others easier in 25s. That tells me that, on the whole, the balance that "just ain't there" for you does exist for me.


    Point is the two formats are not equal, therefore they schould not be regarded as equal.
    They give equal rewards, from equal content in a set of encounters that provides roughly the same degree of challenge and requires roughly the same degree of effort.

    Whether that "roughly" means close enough is opinion. IMO, it is usually close enough. In yours, it isn't.

    EJL

  5. #1785
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    And top guilds aren't relevent to this discussion in any way whatsoever, as I've already pointed out half a dozen times. The vast majority of raids don't have the sort of min/max flexibility you are taking as standard. You didn't answer any of my questions, I notice. (And you can't do so because you haven't got an answer that you like.)
    Heh, who said they are? The fact is though that the fights ARE balanced with top level in mind and that is why top 25s still exist while all the other levels of skill dissapeared in 25!
    You think that the lower AVERAGE skill level is for a 10 man and a 25 man, the easier it is for the 25???
    It is the OPOSITE! When you move to casual levels, the fight that is balanced relatively well at top levels of skill is MUCH more difficult for 25s! All of them . There is not a single exception for the casual level guilds were a fight in this expansion was EASIER on 25.

    Why?
    Well, dear Injin and Mr clueless theorycrafter of raiding models, the lower the average skill level is for a team, the larger the VARIANCE in skill levels between a 10 man group and a 25 man group.
    At top level it is very well posible the top player from bottom player to have 5% difference in performance both for 10 and 25.
    While we go to lower levels, average skill has no relevance to actual skill of the top player and the bottom player of a team in performance. And the difference is more striking BY far in a 25 simply because of the seer number of people, making it more likely for ultraskilled and ultra"bad" players to exist in the same group.

    Last night we killed warmaster heroic (10) and the first dps was at 34k while the last one was at 16k with low uptime that dropped the total damage done, UNDER the two tanks (one of them being a warrior tank that did more damage with 12,5k dps!). There are class differences but come on, this is a deafening examble of how much skill can vary in a group that is not top team!
    This phenomenon, is amplyfied in 25s, making this fight impossible, for a team with the same AVERAGE skill level with mine's, while it is considered of equal difficulty (some claim that it is harder in 10 man version!), between the 2 sizes!

    What are the options for my 10 man team? Pick up the best 5 maybe and go to kill this boss in an easier manner? Nop, that is not possible, because there are not 5 man raids!
    What are the options for a 25 team of MY level of skill (my 10 man team's that is), that atm CANNOT kill warmaster heroic at all while we can do it?
    If you can't guess ill tell you. In a 25 the chances of more than one person doing those 34k the top performer did are TRIPLED! You know what you can do by downsizing and have those 3 people doing 34k in the 10 man version????
    It means literally that a group like that can eat popcorns while killing warmaster heroic 10!!!
    You know what pressure this FACT puts in the 25 man team to do EXCACTLY that and downsize to 10????
    NO you DON'T because you haven't been in this situation!

    This is why non top 10 mans kill more stuff than same AVERAGE skill 25s.
    And the non top 10 man can CONTINUE existing because there is no smaller raid size, so my mr 34k cannot ask for a downsize.For 25s the story is TOTALLY different. Some of the best players, being unable to kill warmaster heroic, while lets say my guild does it, WILL PUSH the officers to downsize, so they can kill warmaster while having popcorn!
    And this is why you have to STRUGGLE to find a casual, or non top 25 man guild left today.

    You mr Injin have a one sided view of the matter, based on your average group, with non optimal setup, that downsized to strict 10, while Wrath was still the relevant content!
    And you come here (together with that LFR hero) and claim what???
    That average 10 man guild has it harder than an average 25 man guild???
    Come on m8, give me a break really!!!

    You don't have a first clue what a leader and an officer of an AVERAGE 25 man guild has been through this expansion. But that is not an excuse. Because there are sites like wowprogress and guildox around, and you can go and see, how many of those AVERAGE 25s are left!!!

  6. #1786
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    Heh, who said they are? The fact is though that the fights ARE balanced with top level in mind and that is why top 25s still exist while all the other levels of skill dissapeared in 25!
    Your responses all had the perfect group as a requirement for their meaning anything.
    You think that the lower AVERAGE skill level is for a 10 man and a 25 man, the easier it is for the 25???
    It is the OPOSITE! When you move to casual levels, the fight that is balanced relatively well at top levels of skill is MUCH more difficult for 25s! All of them . There is not a single exception for the casual level guilds were a fight in this expansion was EASIER on 25.
    Taken all melee to blackthorn 10 man HC yet?
    Why?
    Well, dear Injin and Mr clueless theorycrafter of raiding models, the lower the average skill level is for a team, the larger the VARIANCE in skill levels between a 10 man group and a 25 man group.
    At top level it is very well posible the top player from bottom player to have 5% difference in performance both for 10 and 25.
    While we go to lower levels, average skill has no relevance to actual skill of the top player and the bottom player of a team in performance. And the difference is more striking BY far in a 25 simply because of the seer number of people, making it more likely for ultraskilled and ultra"bad" players to exist in the same group.
    5% chance of failure is a 5% chance of failure.
    Last night we killed warmaster heroic (10) and the first dps was at 34k while the last one was at 16k with low uptime that dropped the total damage done, UNDER the two tanks (one of them being a warrior tank that did more damage with 12,5k dps!). There are class differences but come on, this is a deafening examble of how much skill can vary in a group that is not top team!
    This phenomenon, is amplyfied in 25s, making this fight impossible, for a team with the same AVERAGE skill level with mine's, while it is considered of equal difficulty (some claim that it is harder in 10 man version!), between the 2 sizes!
    Last night we killed warmaster after having to pug three different people because we could only find one tank. This was after failing due to low DPS, because you see, while the variance might be large in 25 man, in 10 man the "variance" might be sat in orgrimmar on the AH because he's tired, or might not have even logged on. Good players cannot carry bad ones if they aren't even in the raid, lugnuts.
    What are the options for my 10 man team? Pick up the best 5 maybe and go to kill this boss in an easier manner? Nop, that is not possible, because there are not 5 man raids!
    If the best is online, the right class and spec......
    What are the options for a 25 team of MY level of skill (my 10 man team's that is), that atm CANNOT kill warmaster heroic at all while we can do it?
    If you can't guess ill tell you. In a 25 the chances of more than one person doing those 34k the top performer did are TRIPLED! You know what you can do by downsizing and have those 3 people doing 34k in the 10 man version????
    It means literally that a group like that can eat popcorns while killing warmaster heroic 10!!!
    You know what pressure this FACT puts in the 25 man team to do EXCACTLY that and downsize to 10????
    NO you DON'T because you haven't been in this situation!

    This is why non top 10 mans kill more stuff than same AVERAGE skill 25s.
    And the non top 10 man can CONTINUE existing because there is no smaller raid size, so my mr 34k cannot ask for a downsize.For 25s the story is TOTALLY different. Some of the best players, being unable to kill warmaster heroic, while lets say my guild does it, WILL PUSH the officers to downsize, so they can kill warmaster while having popcorn!
    And this is why you have to STRUGGLE to find a casual, or non top 25 man guild left today.

    You mr Injin have a one sided view of the matter, based on your average group, with non optimal setup, that downsized to strict 10, while Wrath was still the relevant content!
    And you come here (together with that LFR hero) and claim what???
    That average 10 man guild has it harder than an average 25 man guild???
    Come on m8, give me a break really!!!

    You don't have a first clue what a leader and an officer of an AVERAGE 25 man guild has been through this expansion. But that is not an excuse. Because there are sites like wowprogress and guildox around, and you can go and see, how many of those AVERAGE 25s are left!!!
    We run 2 x 10 man raids rather than 25 because we have people who like to tank and heal. But we have done 25 mans (while legendary farming, thanks guys!) People have gone and done 10 mans because it's easier to organise and the person who decides which format to run is...dun dun dun....the raid leader. It's easier for the raid leader to sort 10 people out, so they've done 10. It's got fuck all to do with the encounters difficulty though, it's purely a man management issue.

    When you downsize to 25 mans the shitty thing is that 15 people are left out. But.....notice...... this isn't a problem for the raid leader, cos he's the first guy invited. Complaining to blizzard, moaning about difficulty etc etc means nothing, the people who choose the format to run (nascent raid leaders) pick 10's. Blame them for not wanting to cat herd an extra 15 for no reward.

    Also, learn to read, would you? I already said I done 10 and 25 man DS. Oh and when you insult me, you shouldn'y apologise to moderators, you should apologise to me, you rude sack of shit.

    Infracted - Wilderness
    Last edited by Wilderness; 2012-06-18 at 11:40 AM.
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  7. #1787
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    Blizzard isn't destroying 25m's players are. Ive been trying to get into 25m's for 2 years. The ready formed guilds are too tight knit to recruit anyone, and the 10man guild that's recruiting for a 25man raid group fail people people are too impatient and leave a week after joining. 25m raiding would be a hell of alot more popular if 80% of the people in the game weren't A*holes.

    If you want 25mans so much do what I'm doing, get into a 10m guild that's trying to get to 25man and wait untill it does.

  8. #1788
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    Heh, who said they are? The fact is though that the fights ARE balanced with top level in mind
    Since when? Blizzard balances around a more common level of skill - they have to.

    Well, dear Injin and Mr clueless theorycrafter of raiding models
    Awww...and I thought yuou were ignoring me

    There are class differences but come on, this is a deafening examble of how much skill can vary in a group that is not top team!
    Gear and RNG not play a part?

    What are the options for my 10 man team? Pick up the best 5 maybe and go to kill this boss in an easier manner? Nop, that is not possible, because there are not 5 man raids!
    And never will be.

    You know what you can do by downsizing and have those 3 people doing 34k in the 10 man version????
    Decide that format isn't an important consideration for you and go into a format that gives you wnat you want from this instance.

    You know what pressure this FACT puts in the 25 man team to do EXCACTLY that and downsize to 10????
    A fair bit. You want to know what that means? It means that 25 man team has a lot of people in it who don't care about the format and don't want to do it. Thsi is where this argument of yours breaks down.

    You want people who don't care about the 25 man format to do the 25 man format simply so people who care about 25s can do them, regardless of what the other members want.

    They don't care about format - they want their gear, their loot, their progression and the fact that they don't want to stick with a 25 man group who can't give it to tthem doesn't matter to you. They NEED to be forced to stay where they are simply so those who want to do a 25 man format can do so.

    I don't agree with this line of argument at all. There is no good reason why players who don't really care about format should be directed to go do a 25 if they decide 10s suits their goals, their needs, their priorities better.

    EJL

  9. #1789
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Your responses all had the perfect group as a requirement for their meaning anything.
    My repsonces were related to the ongoing convertation at the given time in this long thread.
    I have mentioned MANY times, that the actual problem that 25 teams are facing in this expansion, is not so much related with the top 25s, but the average and casual 25s. THOSE are the ones that vanished!

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Taken all melee to blackthorn 10 man HC yet?
    Read again what you quoted
    Read again your reply
    Relate the 2...if you can.
    On a side note have you done heroic warmaster 25 all mellee?
    Has anyone done it? Why should i bother if a 10 man cant do it with all melee then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    5% chance of failure is a 5% chance of failure.
    I am not talking about 5% chance of failure, i am talking about the variance in skill difference for TOP teams.
    And further down in the quoted text (for no reason since you had nothing to talk about), i am talking about how this variance is increasing, for both sizes, but disproportionaly more for 25's.
    Learn to read
    Learn to quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Last night we killed warmaster after having to pug three different people because we could only find one tank. This was after failing due to low DPS, because you see, while the variance might be large in 25 man, in 10 man the "variance" might be sat in orgrimmar on the AH because he's tired, or might not have even logged on. Good players cannot carry bad ones if they aren't even in the raid, lugnuts.
    Hmm, and again, Read what i wrote, read your quote and relate the 2. There is no relevance.
    It is simply a flamebite.
    You had to pug 3 people cause you had low dps and had one tank, and variance is sat in ogrimar?
    Seriously m8...

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    If the best is online, the right class and spec......
    Hmm if they are you would 5 man the 10 man raid?
    Again read what i wrote, read your reply.
    It is amusing, keep them coming!

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    We run 2 x 10 man raids rather than 25 because we have people who like to tank and heal. But we have done 25 mans (while legendary farming, thanks guys!) People have gone and done 10 mans because it's easier to organise and the person who decides which format to run is...dun dun dun....the raid leader. It's easier for the raid leader to sort 10 people out, so they've done 10. It's got fuck all to do with the encounters difficulty though, it's purely a man management issue.

    When you downsize to 25 mans the shitty thing is that 15 people are left out. But.....notice...... this isn't a problem for the raid leader, cos he's the first guy invited. Complaining to blizzard, moaning about difficulty etc etc means nothing, the people who choose the format to run (nascent raid leaders) pick 10's. Blame them for not wanting to cat herd an extra 15 for no reward.

    We run 2X10 too plus one more for socials that cant commit for 2 or 3 nights. What that has to do with anything?
    Oh and with 2 10s you have at best the same amount of healers required for a single 25, and since most heroics in DS require 2 healers, even less healing requirements than a 25. For tanks it is a different story, still tanking in 10 is not so pleasant, since you have to be the sub par dps anyway in half of the heroic encounters that require one tank. (Zon, Yos, Hag, and with nerfs madness too). What a poor argumentation.
    You don't downsize "to 25s" you downsize to 10s. That "shitty thing" is part of what i've been talking about in this thread.
    The reasons that this "shitty" thing is happening have been explained many times already, even in my post that you so poorly (once more) have chosen to quote. You fail to see what the others are even talking about.
    Last edited by Archidamos; 2012-06-18 at 10:49 AM.

  10. #1790
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Lots of drivel, no apology from you.

    That's it for you and me interacting.
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  11. #1791
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    A comp of 7 people can bring all the buffage required today and top guilds have them all on.
    A specific combination of classes/specs, but Most raids don't have that option. They take what they can get, that is to say competent and reliable players. It is a very real logistical problem getting all the required buffs in a 10 man in an efficient manner without sacrificing something.

    My 10 man group as an example, has two priest & two druids, so we just barely make do with the other classes providing the necessary buffs, 3 of which come from 1 player (Demo. Warlock). I for example, still play Arcane just so that we can have the 3% damage buff.

  12. #1792
    High Overlord Bootstrapper's Avatar
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    I am pretty sure that Blizzard won't change anything about 25 man or 10 man raiding at the moment, since you actually can choose what kind of ''raidgroup'' you prefer to raid with without losing any gear etc. It is pretty much the same thing, it just depends on your own preference.

    Bootstrapper throws a delicious chocolate filled cookie at you!

  13. #1793
    Quote Originally Posted by Trigunflame View Post
    A specific combination of classes/specs, but Most raids don't have that option. They take what they can get, that is to say competent and reliable players. It is a very real logistical problem getting all the required buffs in a 10 man in an efficient manner without sacrificing something.

    My 10 man group as an example, has two priest & two druids, so we just barely make do with the other classes providing the necessary buffs, 3 of which come from 1 player (Demo. Warlock). I for example, still play Arcane just so that we can have the 3% damage buff.
    Look m8, i know what you are talking about, i raid 10, and rarely if ever we have a lock or fire mage in the group.
    Also more often than not, the group that is currently progressing heroic spine is doing so with 3 priests.
    Another problem the 10 mans are facing is the attendance issues.
    In a 25 when pretty much every buff is provided by 2-3 players, when somebody skips a raid, you simply put another guy, nothing is changing on the setup, it is all about the skill of person missing and the person that is replacing the missing one. Unelss if all locks and fire mages skip the same day ofc :P
    In a 10 man you may have a sub, and you should have one, but the setup might be changing so drastically that it may not even worth it attempting the boss you re trying to progress on (or utilize alts, by bringing a sub, and having a main swapping to his alt for the raid).
    That simply put extra weight to the argument that 10 and 25 man are 2 different things. They should not share achievements and realm first.
    Also, my problem and your problem, is not related to the top teams, those that compete for realm firsts and for exceptional world ranks. Those guilds have their buffing issue shorted, and only if a key buffer skips a night they have to face the problem "cancel raid or raid with suboptimal setup". Those ofc have ultra geared alts as well, and most of the times they will do the proper adjustements to have the setup needed for the progression encounter.
    My problem and your problem is related to non top 25s, but when you put it next to the problems that THEY deal with, in all other levels, it is like a drop in the ocean.

  14. #1794
    Moderator Wilderness's Avatar
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    I think this thread has reached the end of the line. We have about 60+ pages of mostly the same people going round and round with the same arguments and neither side is going to convince the other. On top of that there have been several times throughout the course of this where people get frustrated and turn to personal attacks or other non-constructive posts.
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