1. #1

    [Balance] My balance rotation?

    Hey guys,

    was looking for some help. I've recently switched mains to my Boomkin to help out my guild and was looking for some information on the rotation (if I am doing it right) as my DPS in raids seems to be lacking.

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    Here is a video I made of my rotation (apologies if you can't see it yet, youtube is the process of uploading)

    www (dot) youtube (dot) com/watch?v=h3OwcfUfVRk

    I know it is best to try and start each fight in Solar Eclipse. I will try to describe my rotation as if I were starting in Solar Eclipse:

    • Pre-cast Startsurge
    • DoTs up
    • Starsurge on CD
    • Wrath (until the next cast will take me out eclipse)
    • Refresh IS and Sunfire
    • Wrath and Starsurge (saving Starsurge if the next cast will take me into Eclipse (in which case save Starsurge))
    • Proc Lunar Eclipse
    • One Starfire or non-instant Starsurge
    • IS and Moonfire
    • Starfall (only Starfall in Lunar)
    • Starfire and Starsurge (saving Starsurge if the next cast will take me into Eclipse (in which case save Starsurge))
    • Not stopping to refresh IS and Moonfire as I can make Eclipse before they drop
    • Proc Solar Eclipse
    • One Wrath or non-instant Starsurge
    • IS and Sunfire

    Does this seem about right? Am I missing something completely?

  2. #2
    You're missing out on Detonating your mushrooms before the fight. It will give your DoTs and your Starsurge extra damage. Plus, they'll hurt like hell at Solar.

    You're missing out on refreshing your DoTs before leaving the eclipse. They'll do more damage if you do so. They'll do even more if you get them refreshed before the haste buff goes away...unless I read your list wrong. :S

    Other than that, I think its solid.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorDoomkin View Post
    You're missing out on Detonating your mushrooms before the fight. It will give your DoTs and your Starsurge extra damage. Plus, they'll hurt like hell at Solar.
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorDoomkin View Post
    You're missing out on refreshing your DoTs before leaving the eclipse.
    He says he casts wrath until his next cast will take him out of eclipse.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-22 at 02:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Distort View Post
    • Wrath (until the next cast will take me out eclipse)
    • Refresh IS and Sunfire
    Depending on your haste levels and whether you're in general doing your rotation correctly, you shouldn't have to refresh dots before exitting eclipse, in most cases those 2 GCDs are better saved for nukes. There are situations where this may not be the case, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Distort View Post
    • Starfall (only Starfall in Lunar)
    *ALWAYS* Starfall when it comes off CD. If you're at say, between ~60 and ~80 lunar energy, and 3-4 casts away from Lunar eclipse, maybe save it. Otherwise, pop it on CD because it will scale with any buff you happen to receive. So if you cast it and it's doing ~8k damage per star @ 93 lunar energy, as soon as you hit 100 and proc eclipse, it starts doing ~12k, or whatever.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-22 at 02:33 AM ----------

    Lol one more.

    Are you hardcasting Starsurge outside of eclipse?

    If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars.
    Tenkuu Seratonin
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  4. #4
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorDoomkin View Post
    You're missing out on Detonating your mushrooms before the fight. It will give your DoTs and your Starsurge extra damage. Plus, they'll hurt like hell at Solar.

    You're missing out on refreshing your DoTs before leaving the eclipse. They'll do more damage if you do so. They'll do even more if you get them refreshed before the haste buff goes away...unless I read your list wrong. :S

    Other than that, I think its solid.
    No, no, no. If you're in a normal tank and spank fight you don't need to refresh DoTs before leaving Eclipse. Unless it's something like Fading Light and you have a large chunk of time where there's DoT downtime, it's unneeded. In LFR gear you should be able to make the full rotation and have DoTs last until the very last cast or so.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-22 at 04:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Batix View Post
    *ALWAYS* Starfall when it comes off CD. If you're at say, between ~60 and ~80 lunar energy, and 3-4 casts away from Lunar eclipse, maybe save it. Otherwise, pop it on CD because it will scale with any buff you happen to receive. So if you cast it and it's doing ~8k damage per star @ 93 lunar energy, as soon as you hit 100 and proc eclipse, it starts doing ~12k, or whatever.
    I'll respectfully disagree with you here. With the massive increase to damage from Eclipse, I always try to pop Starfall in Lunar, unless for some reason it comes up just as I'm leaving Lunar. Generally you may sit on it for 10-12 seconds, but you're getting a 50+% boost out of the damage. I usually use this as my pre-cast filler when going into Lunar Eclipse.
    Last edited by Sunfyre; 2012-03-22 at 04:09 PM.

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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    No, no, no. If you're in a normal tank and spank fight you don't need to refresh DoTs before leaving Eclipse. Unless it's something like Fading Light and you have a large chunk of time where there's DoT downtime, it's unneeded. In LFR gear you should be able to make the full rotation and have DoTs last until the very last cast or so.[COLOR="red"]
    I have 3102 haste without DI and I cannot make the Solar to Lunar switch prior to dots falling off. I also tested on a dummy for 5 minute parses refreshing dots prior to leaving eclipse and only upon entering eclipse. From my testing the dps difference was only about 300-500 BUT refreshing upon entrance and just prior to exit was a DPS increase for me outside of any buffs.

    I am no expert and I have heard mixed reviews about the actual correct rotation but it seems fairly minor. For me I'd prefer to have my dots up 100% of the time though since I make mistakes in the rotation a fair bit.

    EDIT: Just a quick edit on the dots falling off, I always upon entering an eclipse cast one spell prior to refreshing dots. So if I'm entering Solar cast one wrath. That being said, I am generally 2-3 casts shy of refreshing dots on the lunar side (unless I get lucky procs with shooting stars) and 0 or 1 cast shy on solar sidie. Seems like a long time to go without dots but from my testing it was pretty minor as I said.
    Last edited by NightZero88; 2012-03-22 at 04:15 PM.

  6. #6
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    I have 3102 haste without DI and I cannot make the Solar to Lunar switch prior to dots falling off. I also tested on a dummy for 5 minute parses refreshing dots prior to leaving eclipse and only upon entering eclipse. From my testing the dps difference was only about 300-500 BUT refreshing upon entrance and just prior to exit was a DPS increase for me outside of any buffs.

    I am no expert and I have heard mixed reviews about the actual correct rotation but it seems fairly minor. For me I'd prefer to have my dots up 100% of the time though since I make mistakes in the rotation a fair bit.

    EDIT: Just a quick edit on the dots falling off, I always upon entering an eclipse cast one spell prior to refreshing dots. So if I'm entering Solar cast one wrath. That being said, I am generally 2-3 casts shy of refreshing dots on the lunar side (unless I get lucky procs with shooting stars) and 0 or 1 cast shy on solar sidie. Seems like a long time to go without dots but from my testing it was pretty minor as I said.
    Just did a dummy run, started at 80 Solar energy, precast Wrath as I went into Solar Eclipse, and both DoTs went up as I was hitting 88 lunar energy towards lunar. I have 2911 haste, and I didn't use any shooting stars procs. It's not worth spending two GCDs to reDoT for two casts.

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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Batix View Post
    Are you hardcasting Starsurge outside of eclipse?
    Yes, but only if that cast isn't the one taking me into an eclipse, in which case I will sit on it.

    I have 2137 haste unbuffed, I am struggling to make it back to lunar eclipse without my DoTs falling off, and they're falling off like 2-3 (sometimes 4) casts before eclipse.

    Thank you for all the information, its nice to hear I'm nearly there. I will take all the advice given and work it into my play.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    Just did a dummy run, started at 80 Solar energy, precast Wrath as I went into Solar Eclipse, and both DoTs went up as I was hitting 88 lunar energy towards lunar. I have 2911 haste, and I didn't use any shooting stars procs. It's not worth spending two GCDs to reDoT for two casts.
    You are misunderstanding me I think. Let's use your example. You precast wrath as you enter solar which puts you at 88 solar on your way back to lunar. You put up your dots. I will hit 18 energy, my next cast puts me at 5. I will then refresh my dots, please note I will still have the NG proc up when doing this so I am clipping dots but they are still getting the haste bonus. I then proceed to lunar exclipse, refresh dots and then recast again at around 15-5 energy depending on what I have cast (still having NG). In this way I am one, keeping dots up 100% of the time, two not clipping hasted dots with unhasted dots. I am wasting globals as you said for nukes but from my testing as I saw, the difference was only about 500 dps. I believe the OP is doing what I am as well and I have seen arguements both for and against.

    EDIT: As I see it there are three possible rotations which I have outlined below.

    1. Refresh dots 4 times in total on a Solar to Lunar to Solar run. Once upon entering each eclipse and once just prior to leaving eclipses.

    2. Refresh dots 2 times in total on a Solar to Lunar to Solar run. Once upon entering each eclipse only.

    3. Refresh dots likely 3 times in total on a Solar to Lunar to Solar run. One upon entering your first eclipse and then every time your dots fall off while trying to only do so in an eclipse.

    Which one of these is the optimal rotation is what I and the OP are questioning as I have heard people say all three are correct. Note for I and the OP, we can generally make a Lunar to Solar in the time of one set of dots. We CANNOT make it from Solar to Lunar before dots fall off.
    Last edited by NightZero88; 2012-03-22 at 07:59 PM.

  9. #9
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    i've found for myself, i get better results beginning a single target fight 1 cast from Lunar. I'll open with mushrooms > starsurge > Starfall > IS > MF > Sstarfire > continue rotation.

    The massive damage from 2 dots + weapon dot + starfall + Hard Cast rotation gives me a great head start on the fight.

    And since i'm one of those odd balls who uses the glyph of starsurge, i always end up having Starfall come off CD exactly as my last wrath or starsurge is cast before entering Lunar Eclipse.

    Doing the above i start my fights off at 40k DPS with a 392 ilvl, after a while i'll even out at about 35k(ish).

    Also just to mention about the DoT refreshing situation. I sit at 28% Haste w/o procs or buffs other than Moonkin Aura. and i have no issue reaching each eclipse without having to refresh before i enter eclipse. Normally my DoTs fall off when i have 1 cast left, rarely 2 casts.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    Also just to mention about the DoT refreshing situation. I sit at 28% Haste w/o procs or buffs other than Moonkin Aura. and i have no issue reaching each eclipse without having to refresh before i enter eclipse. Normally my DoTs fall off when i have 1 cast left, rarely 2 casts.
    Not sure what you mean here. You say you never have an issue refreshing dots before you enter eclipse which implies your dots last you from one eclipse to the next but then you say your dots fall off 1 cast away from entering eclipse.

    That is essentially where we are. The question is, that 3-5 seconds or so of 0 dots is that better or worse than keeping dots up 100% by refreshing prior to leaving eclipse.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    Not sure what you mean here. You say you never have an issue refreshing dots before you enter eclipse which implies your dots last you from one eclipse to the next but then you say your dots fall off 1 cast away from entering eclipse.

    That is essentially where we are. The question is, that 3-5 seconds or so of 0 dots is that better or worse than keeping dots up 100% by refreshing prior to leaving eclipse.
    I read that back 4 times before i posted it and thought it didn't look right. lol

    I meant, i do not have to refresh my dots. I cast them as i enter Eclipse and do not have to cast them again till i enter the next eclipse. Sorry lol long day at work.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    I read that back 4 times before i posted it and thought it didn't look right. lol

    I meant, i do not have to refresh my dots. I cast them as i enter Eclipse and do not have to cast them again till i enter the next eclipse. Sorry lol long day at work.
    I have heard that due to the way the eclipses work you should always hardcast a nuke upon entering eclipse before refreshing your dots or they may not get the eclipse bonus. Example: Cast into solar, hardcast wrath, refresh dots. Not sure if it's true but if you are refreshing as soon as you enter you may not be getting maximum damage from dots.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    I read that back 4 times before i posted it and thought it didn't look right. lol

    I meant, i do not have to refresh my dots. I cast them as i enter Eclipse and do not have to cast them again till i enter the next eclipse. Sorry lol long day at work.
    Well, i look at it like this. It takes 1.5 seconds per dot to cast. 2 Dots is 3 seconds. i can cast a wrath or starfire in less than that.

    GCD's are judged by their worth/profit. Wrath and Starfall are immediate profit, they hit the target and their 2 second cost was payed for in full once it hits the target. a DoT takes 12 seconds (duration) to achieve profit from it's cost (1.5 second cast)

    I'd rather cast 1 or 2 more Direct Damage spells and wait for Eclipse to cast a 1.5s instant that will take 12 seconds but will do more damage.

    Waiting for the eclipse gives you the same Cost (1.5s) With higher Worth (+40% Damage(guesstimated number)) And in the end higher Profit (More damage done over all, same as the worth)

    This totally makes perfect sense in my head, does it to you? if so awesome! if not, i need to recollect my thoughts and make this make more sense. lol

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-22 at 08:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    I have heard that due to the way the eclipses work you should always hardcast a nuke upon entering eclipse before refreshing your dots or they may not get the eclipse bonus. Example: Cast into solar, hardcast wrath, refresh dots. Not sure if it's true but if you are refreshing as soon as you enter you may not be getting maximum damage from dots.
    i'm honestly not sure about this. I have heard it once or twice recently. The only rule i'm aware is absolutely true is that you must cast IS first. The first DoT cast will trigger Nature's Grace, the Second DoT cast will be the only one with the haste increase. Since Moonfire/Sunfire do more damage it is best to cast those second so they get the haste increase.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathandira View Post
    Well, i look at it like this. It takes 1.5 seconds per dot to cast. 2 Dots is 3 seconds. i can cast a wrath or starfire in less than that.

    GCD's are judged by their worth/profit. Wrath and Starfall are immediate profit, they hit the target and their 2 second cost was payed for in full once it hits the target. a DoT takes 12 seconds (duration) to achieve profit from it's cost (1.5 second cast)

    I'd rather cast 1 or 2 more Direct Damage spells and wait for Eclipse to cast a 1.5s instant that will take 12 seconds but will do more damage.

    Waiting for the eclipse gives you the same Cost (1.5s) With higher Worth (+40% Damage(guesstimated number)) And in the end higher Profit (More damage done over all, same as the worth)

    This totally makes perfect sense in my head, does it to you? if so awesome! if not, i need to recollect my thoughts and make this make more sense. lol
    Yes it makes sense and I agree you are likely right. I just know from my testing on a dummy doing both ways outside of any buffs but at 3102 haste (breakpoint) refreshing 4 times was marginally better and by marginally I mean 300-500 damage only and it varied depending on crits. To me the difference is so small you should just do what you feel comfortable with.

    I am still new to the spec and tend to screw up the rotation on occasion so maintaining 100% uptime on DoTs keeps me more competitive with others. For example, last night I did absolutely terrible with my rotation and screwed up so much but we were doing progression on fights and as the raide leader that means I have to call everything out which leads to my screw ups.

  15. #15
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    I have heard that due to the way the eclipses work you should always hardcast a nuke upon entering eclipse before refreshing your dots or they may not get the eclipse bonus. Example: Cast into solar, hardcast wrath, refresh dots. Not sure if it's true but if you are refreshing as soon as you enter you may not be getting maximum damage from dots.
    This correct.

    Another thing to remember is while you're extending your DoTs, you're also getting 2 more casts of your nuke that aren't NG'd, where they previously would have been. That's even more time you're delaying your Eclipse. Do you use 2T13?

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  16. #16
    @Sunfyre on the starfall subject,

    I totally get what you're saying. All I'm saying is that if it comes off CD and you're like.. 2 casts from Solar, what then? You wait for a full cycle to get back to lunar before you pop it? What I'm saying is that using that example, if you pop it then, you'll likely get it back sometime near or in lunar.

    If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    This correct.

    Another thing to remember is while you're extending your DoTs, you're also getting 2 more casts of your nuke that aren't NG'd, where they previously would have been. That's even more time you're delaying your Eclipse. Do you use 2T13?
    I use 4pt13 and the resto chest.

  18. #18
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    I use 4pt13 and the resto chest.
    I think any benefit would be situational. I tried refreshing DoTs on dummies and the DPS was just about where I was without it. I expected to see the bottom end of Wrath/Starfire raise up slightly due to now having Insect Swarm up when I pre-cast the next Eclipse, but I didn't really notice much. In some situations I could see this working, but there's a lot involved to pull it off.

    Needless to say, I'm a curmudgeonly old druid, and I was surprised to see the numbers be even close to where I was with a standard rotation. With the T13 4PC but low haste, I could see it being viable.

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  19. #19
    Here's how my rotation goes from a 0 lunar/solar eclipse view:
    • Put up 3x Shrooms before the fight begins
    • Starfire precast(Gets Earth and Moon? debuff up on target)
    • Insect Swarm
    • Moonfire
    • Starfire till Solar
    • 1 hardcast Wrath or Starsurge as I hit Solar with the previous Starfire
    • Insect Swarm
    • Sunfire
    • Detonate Shrooms
    • Wrath/Starsurge till the next cast brings me out of Solar
    • Insect Swarm
    • Sunfire
    • Wrath/Starsurge till Lunar(But I dont use Starsurge if Im 1-2 casts away from Lunar Eclipse, then I save it)
    • Starfire/Starsurge as I hit Lunar, but make sure your last wrath has hit before finish casting a Starsurge, if you know it wont, cast Starfire then Starsruge
    • Starfall
    • Starfire/Starsruge UNTILL MY IS/SUNFIRE FROM THE SOLAR ECLIPSE RUN OUT!
    • Insect Swarm when the IS from my Solar Eclipse runs out
    • Moonfire when the Sunfire runs out(This is becuase, IS&Sunfire is stronger than IS&Moonfire)
    • Starfire/Starsurge till Solar(But I dont use Starsurge if Im 1-2 casts away from Solar Eclipse, then I save it)
    • 1 hardcast Wrath or Starsurge as I hit Solar with the previous Starfire
    • Insect Swarm
    • Sunfire
    • etc

    Yes, dont refresh IS&Moonfire as soon as you hit Lunar, not if you got 5-6 seconds left on your IS&Sunfire, the latter are stronger than the previous, and refreshing them would lessen your DPS!

    This is what I belive to give the most DPS!

    Thanks to Kieble for sig and avatar!

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