1. #1221
    Just going to throw in my personal experiences with Ascension yesterday in the full guild/friends LFR group I do every Wednesday.

    So as soon as I got home from work, I immediately respecced into Ascension. Seeing my energy regen jump from 13.34 to almost 16 energy per second was rather entertaining, to say the least! Next step then would be to sort all that extra haste out. I regemmed for more crit and stamina (see my signature for how I've gemmed) and was even reforging out of haste to get back to 13.33 energy (or as close as I could get it). Figured I'd give that a go, see what happens.

    This gave me, unbuffed, just about 30% crit. Tasty.

    So in we go to LFR! Hooray. ...And then I struggle to keep Shuffle up. I just don't have the Chi I need, it just isn't working out at all. I'm taking a lot more damage than I should do, dying a few times because I just can't keep Shuffle up. Not good!

    It sounds obvious now, but at the time I overlooked the fact that I'm missing out on Chi without Power Strikes. PS makes a pretty significant difference at the end of the day, and missing out on that 1 extra Chi every so often really hurt.

    That said, my EB uptime was fabulous. So that was nice. I regularly had times where I'd build up a 15 stack, use it, then by the time the buff dropped off I'd have another 9-10 stacks available. But then I do have the Terrace trinket, which probably contributed to that amount of uptime. :P

    So now I'm sitting at (I think) about 14 energy regen per second with Ascension. Feels much better than before. I've got no math to support this number, it's just what I'm using. (NOTE: while writing this post I went ahead and did the math, see below) EB uptime is MUCH better than before as well, very happy there.

    I also like having a max of 5 Chi: it means that there's less times I accidentally waste a Chi with Keg Smash because I only needed 1 Chi to cap, or more often than not I have 1 extra Chi available to use Purifying Brew. Sure, theoretically it doesn't do anything, but in practice it really helps out when you've got 500 other things to keep track of.

    So in short... With Ascension, I'm now gemming for crit/stamina, seeing a much higher EB uptime, have a more smooth resource income, and have just about enough Chi to keep Shuffle up.

    That said, as I noted above, I've now done the math on how much Energy regen is required. Quick summary:

    I worked this out over a 2 minute period, because I didn't like having half a keg smash. Seemed awkward.

    So over a 2 minute period, you need the following:

    20 Blackout Kicks (6 second duration, 120 seconds to cover, 120/6 = 20) at 2 Chi each, 40 Chi required
    4 Guards (30 second duration, 120 seconds to cover, 120/30 = 4) at 2 Chi each, 8 Chi required

    48 Chi required over a 2 minute period.

    Keg Smash is on an 8 second cooldown: 120/8 = 15 keg smashes in 2 minutes, giving you 30 chi. These 15 keg smashes will cost 15 x 40 = 600 energy.

    You need another 18 Chi from Jab/Expel Harm. 18 x 40 = 720 energy required.

    720 + 600 = 1320 energy required.

    120 seconds to generate this energy, 1320/120 = 11 energy regen per second required, as an absolute minimum.

    Of course, this is ignoring Purifying Brew. So you need to find out how much Chi you use on average for Purifying Brew, and add that on to the total Chi required above. I'm going to use 30 chi/min (or 60 per 2 mins) total, as suggested by Paraalso earlier in the thread. This gives you 12 chi per 2 mins to use on Purifying Brew (or the healing talents, or gives you leeway on delayed Keg Smashes, etc.).

    15 keg smashes = 30 chi provided = 600 energy required

    30 chi needed from jab = 1200 energy required

    1800 total energy required over 120 seconds = 15 energy regen per second required.



    That seems like a pretty comfortable amount to me and a pretty simple goal to aim for. Unless I got something wrong?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-29 at 09:27 AM ----------

    I wonder if a calculator to work out how much Chi you 'personally' need exists, or would be something that could be created? Everyone would need, at baseline, 48 chi per 2 mins (for Guard/BoK). Beyond that it would be personal preference: how much do 'you' want/need to cast Purifying Brew/the healing talents?

    Seems like a program could be created where you punch in a number of extra Chi you want for PB/healing talents, and the program outputs the amount of energy regen you'd need to achieve that. Could even go deeper and give the amount of haste rating required with/without Ascension as well. And maybe take Power Strikes into account.

    Seems like it could be a useful tool for us. If someone would be so inclined to create it, if it doesn't exist already. >>;

  2. #1222
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    I think 15 may be a little high. I was sitting at 13.34 unbuffed and took a haste elixir(alchemist) and I was having no problems. I think I use PB slightly less often however. I usually let it get a couple of ticks on yellow if it's a low damage phase of the fight. With so much EB stacks even letting it sit on yellow for that extra second or two I didn't see a red stagger at all on Will.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-11-29 at 12:24 PM.

  3. #1223
    True enough, more EB means less need to PB. 14 energy regen felt pretty good to me, but I'll give it a proper test tonight in my raid.

    14 ER means I'm generating at best 57 Chi per 2 minutes, so I can't imagine those 3 extra Chi affecting much of anything.

  4. #1224
    Quote Originally Posted by youlowgee View Post
    if you arent using keg smash on the pull you're doing it wrong anyway.
    My point is : with Power Strikes, you can have your two first Jabs generating 2 Chi instead of one, which is, i repeat, a safer way to engage a fight. Keg Smash isn't in the equation.

  5. #1225
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    Alright i got a question regarding weps.

    I got 1 Hc garja fist and normal one. but yday i got the Sha agi staff. What would be better to use? Since i really dont wanna waist 20k on legendary gem (took the 500intel first since im MS healer but dont have a wep yet for it) And i cant get a new gem befor i used this one i already have.

  6. #1226
    I dont get it why you are calculating so much with chi per minute and stuff ^^. Its just easier to look at energy regen ...

    with powerstrikes every 20 seconds you get 1 chi free which means in energy 40 energy less is needed. This means nothing more than a gain of 2 energy per second (under the assumption that you use the powerstrike bonus really every 20 secs).

    So if I needed 13.33 energy per sec with powerstrikes, I need 15.33 energy per sec with ascension. As easy as that. So I am also going with ~ 15 energy per sec and I noticed no difference in 10 mans yesterday. I also could not reforge much into crit since I still need a lot of haste to get to 15 eps.. --> Ascencion is not that great as it sounds ...

  7. #1227
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by imbanane View Post
    I dont get it why you are calculating so much with chi per minute and stuff ^^. Its just easier to look at energy regen ...

    with powerstrikes every 20 seconds you get 1 chi free which means in energy 40 energy less is needed. This means nothing more than a gain of 2 energy per second (under the assumption that you use the powerstrike bonus really every 20 secs).

    So if I needed 13.33 energy per sec with powerstrikes, I need 15.33 energy per sec with ascension. As easy as that. So I am also going with ~ 15 energy per sec and I noticed no difference in 10 mans yesterday. I also could not reforge much into crit since I still need a lot of haste to get to 15 eps.. --> Ascencion is not that great as it sounds ...
    Intangible benefits are hard to quantify...and you don't really need that much chi.

    13.33 w/ Power Strikes you have 61 chi every 2 mins. You only need 48 to keep up shuffle and guard, and in actual situations less. 80% is a good average, which means you only need 40 to keep shuffle up 80% and guard on CD. PB has diminishing returns, meaning the more you use it the less effective it is per chi(therefore energy, therefore haste) at reducing damage.

    13.33 w/ Ascension is alot less haste needed, ~5k, which you can throw into crit for more EB...therefore less damage and less need for PB, and you get 55 chi per 2 min.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-11-29 at 02:17 PM.

  8. #1228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morion View Post
    My point is : with Power Strikes, you can have your two first Jabs generating 2 Chi instead of one, which is, i repeat, a safer way to engage a fight. Keg Smash isn't in the equation.
    Do you infer that we need, as someone (maybe you ^^) said before, to use guard right after the pull ? Because as I said before, I think it's really not worth before a few GCD when our Vengeance is high enough, which leaves plenty of time to build some Chi and have Power Guard up.

    I do agree that PS is a strong talent, even if I prefer Asc atm, but I don't think that the begining of the fight is a valid reason to take it tbh.

  9. #1229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorgl View Post
    Do you infer that we need, as someone (maybe you ^^) said before, to use guard right after the pull ? Because as I said before, I think it's really not worth before a few GCD when our Vengeance is high enough, which leaves plenty of time to build some Chi and have Power Guard up.

    I do agree that PS is a strong talent, even if I prefer Asc atm, but I don't think that the begining of the fight is a valid reason to take it tbh.
    That was me. I thought he had said something about getting guard up ASAP. I was not saying you should I was just explaining how many gcds it would take. Mea culpa.

  10. #1230
    What is the unbuffed haste mark then when deciding between the two? I cannot determine if my character sheet is broken in game because no matter what I do, I cannot seem to get 13.3 energy regen according to the sheet and I sit at 7k haste unbuffed. What am I missing?

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  11. #1231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    14 ER means I'm generating at best 57 Chi per 2 minutes, so I can't imagine those 3 extra Chi affecting much of anything.
    What haste rating/% is 14 ER? Have a rogue so will have melee haste. Think I'll give boosting Crit a chance tonight as well, can see a boost in EB's uptime very tasty for tanking Queen's adds (Wind Lord would have been nice too). Want to tweak AMR so I can just log on and change things right away before raid.

    Getting used to not having Power Strikes would take some work on my part, so used to the boost on the ICD that I usually already have decided where/how I'm going to spend the extra Chi before it procs.

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  12. #1232
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    the melee "haste" buff is an attackspeed buff, so how can it improve our ER if we just get attackspeed from it?

    and to answer your question SurrealNight, i am @ 4498 haste, and i am at 13,98 ER.

  13. #1233
    Hey guys, 2 questions I had because I wanted someone else's opinions (and EJ aren't helping :P )

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...boots/advanced for reference

    This Friday when Darkmoon Faire opens I get my Relic of Xuen, with the Alchemy trinket being boosted to 458, would Searing Words or Zen Alchemist Stone be best to replace?

    Also apparently I can't find this ANYWHERE, but if I'm NOT using the +Agi weapon enchants, does Windsong or Colossus amount to more mitigation? I'd have thought Windsong due to Colossus' low absorb amount, but I've seen conflicting stories about how Colossus procs and/or stacks.

    Thanks in advance

  14. #1234
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitsu View Post
    and to answer your question SurrealNight, i am @ 4498 haste, and i am at 13,98 ER.
    Thanks, yeah I forgot the buff only affects atk speed so just ignore that part.
    Quote Originally Posted by Needonboots View Post
    Also apparently I can't find this ANYWHERE, but if I'm NOT using the +Agi weapon enchants, does Windsong or Colossus amount to more mitigation? I'd have thought Windsong due to Colossus' low absorb amount, but I've seen conflicting stories about how Colossus procs and/or stacks.
    I believe even with the 5.1 changes that Windsong is still better. The amount absorbed from Colossus is just to small to matter that much in the grand scheme of a boss fight compared to the frequent gains to hate/crit/mastery windsong provides.

    I think those two trinkets are pretty close comparison wise. My guess would be the alchemy stone unless you really value the buff to potions it provides.
    Last edited by SurrealNight; 2012-11-29 at 06:25 PM.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  15. #1235
    with ASC you need ~2300 haste for 13.33 E/Sec.

    personally i like ASC as it makes things more consistent. i have had no issues with shuffle uptime, but then again i was only at 12.7 going full haste prior to 5.1. the extra stam/agi/crit i get from not having every gem be 320 haste is very nice indeed, sitting at 28.2% crit unbuffed.
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  16. #1236
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    Alright i got a question regarding weps.

    I got 1 Hc garja fist and normal one. but yday i got the Sha touched agi staff. What would be better to use?

  17. #1237
    Quote Originally Posted by Needonboots View Post
    Hey guys, 2 questions I had because I wanted someone else's opinions (and EJ aren't helping :P )

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...boots/advanced for reference

    This Friday when Darkmoon Faire opens I get my Relic of Xuen, with the Alchemy trinket being boosted to 458, would Searing Words or Zen Alchemist Stone be best to replace?

    Also apparently I can't find this ANYWHERE, but if I'm NOT using the +Agi weapon enchants, does Windsong or Colossus amount to more mitigation? I'd have thought Windsong due to Colossus' low absorb amount, but I've seen conflicting stories about how Colossus procs and/or stacks.

    Thanks in advance
    Replace Searing Words.

    Windsong.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tatuin View Post
    Alright i got a question regarding weps.

    I got 1 Hc garja fist and normal one. but yday i got the Sha touched agi staff. What would be better to use?
    Assuming that the staff is also normal, they're pretty equal (with the fists being slightly better due to better stat allocation) unless you have your legendary gem, in which case the staff will be superior.
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2012-11-29 at 06:52 PM.

  18. #1238
    Dreadlord
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    Yes i have the gem (first had the intel one so needed to throw it away) So staff it is then

    Also i tired soft cap on exp and did not like to see my Keg smash been parried :S

  19. #1239
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitsu View Post
    the melee "haste" buff is an attackspeed buff, so how can it improve our ER if we just get attackspeed from it?

    and to answer your question SurrealNight, i am @ 4498 haste, and i am at 13,98 ER.
    I will ask the question again, because my in game character stat display shows my energy regen at 12.8 with a haste rating of 6969, or 62.96%. How are you getting these ER values? Or are you saying you are at those values with Ascension? In that case, won't we need a much higher haste value for Ascension to win out over Power Strikes?

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  20. #1240
    On our wed night raid i think my EH bugged or maybe what happend was intended. Just want to see if you guys can clear it up. My EH was on cd as i hit the 35% hp mark. The cd reset which is fine thanks to the resent change. Used it and got hp above 35% and so it went on cd again. That was fine but i dropped under 35% again and it stayed on cd. Does the cd reset only happen once within a given time frame? Not had a chance to get on and proper test this. Cheers for any input.

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