1. #721
    Sorry to interject but I have a problem, big big problem, with my tanking on a monk. I get windwalker pretty well and good, tanking is my offspec I'll admit but I also understand the mechanics and gearing (Reforging is thankfully not that different).

    I'm good with the priorities and active mitigation, however some instances are a nightmare for me and the healer, other instances I'm perfectly fine. I've had plenty of experience tanking before, at 80 and 85 I had both a prot pally and prot warrior, I'm not a PULLEVERYTHINGLOLMODE tank either. So, I tanked for a guild group in random LFG, we got Siege of Niuzao Temple, ok no problem I've DPS'd this before and know what to do, and it's not the first time even tanking a heroic on a monk. It was a freaking terrible experience for all involved, I kept aggro just fine but on anything except bosses I may as well have been in DPS spec wearing paper armor, didn't die but I pretty much pissed off the heals severely, especially in a pack larger than 2.

    Now here's the weird part; We finished it out and requeued for Mogu palace, was absolutely fine even on the 5 packs. Requeued, Jade Temple, again perfectly fine. Scarlet Monastery, perfectly fine. Healer commented that it was completely different, night and day, like healing an entirely different tank. So, what in the world is going on? Why am I pretty much wearing cloth in some instances, but an actual tank in others? I don't understand what I'm doing wrong, even in Mogu Palace on those trash guys that stun you I took far less damage. Any ideas? I'm a little over expertise soft cap, hit capped, 12.3 energy regen, 23% crit, 14% mastery, I'm just afraid to tank anymore, it's so bad that I actually feel bad for people that have to heal me.

  2. #722
    Quote Originally Posted by towelliee View Post
    Was trying to compare it to my WoL but we downed stone guards so half of the overal logs included feng so compared it to our wednesday wipe fest (i was reforged out of haste and went for a pure stam it was stupidly horrible dont do this)

    Killed it tonight with the usually expertise to hard cap and hit to 2550 and then just haste, used stam flask and stam food so had about 510k hp and i didn't have a problem..

    the main difference i can see between our two logs is the amount of Gift of the Ox you absorb, you have about 6% over all where as i had about 13% over all

  3. #723
    Quote Originally Posted by Naekiwi View Post
    Sorry to interject but I have a problem, big big problem, with my tanking on a monk. I get windwalker pretty well and good, tanking is my offspec I'll admit but I also understand the mechanics and gearing (Reforging is thankfully not that different).

    I'm good with the priorities and active mitigation, however some instances are a nightmare for me and the healer, other instances I'm perfectly fine. I've had plenty of experience tanking before, at 80 and 85 I had both a prot pally and prot warrior, I'm not a PULLEVERYTHINGLOLMODE tank either. So, I tanked for a guild group in random LFG, we got Siege of Niuzao Temple, ok no problem I've DPS'd this before and know what to do, and it's not the first time even tanking a heroic on a monk. It was a freaking terrible experience for all involved, I kept aggro just fine but on anything except bosses I may as well have been in DPS spec wearing paper armor, didn't die but I pretty much pissed off the heals severely, especially in a pack larger than 2.

    Now here's the weird part; We finished it out and requeued for Mogu palace, was absolutely fine even on the 5 packs. Requeued, Jade Temple, again perfectly fine. Scarlet Monastery, perfectly fine. Healer commented that it was completely different, night and day, like healing an entirely different tank. So, what in the world is going on? Why am I pretty much wearing cloth in some instances, but an actual tank in others? I don't understand what I'm doing wrong, even in Mogu Palace on those trash guys that stun you I took far less damage. Any ideas? I'm a little over expertise soft cap, hit capped, 12.3 energy regen, 23% crit, 14% mastery, I'm just afraid to tank anymore, it's so bad that I actually feel bad for people that have to heal me.
    nobody in your group was smart enough to interrupt the wind mobs. they do about 40k dps

  4. #724
    I would just like to say that this guide has been very helpful and persuaded me to stick with my decision of swapping from a Mage to a Brewmaster for MoP. I am enjoying the class and the spec and although I am not at 90 yet (86, started from scratch with no RAF or heirlooms) I fully intend to continue on into raiding and tanking.

  5. #725
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurhlag View Post
    Was trying to compare it to my WoL but we downed stone guards so half of the overal logs included feng so compared it to our wednesday wipe fest (i was reforged out of haste and went for a pure stam it was stupidly horrible dont do this)

    Killed it tonight with the usually expertise to hard cap and hit to 2550 and then just haste, used stam flask and stam food so had about 510k hp and i didn't have a problem..

    the main difference i can see between our two logs is the amount of Gift of the Ox you absorb, you have about 6% over all where as i had about 13% over all
    Didnt kill Feng hero .... 1,4 % wipe ... I dropped the exp hard cap for the first time and had no big issues. There is just a hell lot of tank and raid dmg in this fight ...
    At Stone guard i felt much more stable with exp soft cap and more focus on EH.

    Overall I think the difference is so little (between exp sof and hard cap) that it comes down to personal reference. It is by far more important to use the abbilities right and at the proper time

  6. #726
    Mechagnome Avalya's Avatar
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    Cleared SG HC last night, and I went with hit and expertise soft cap, then full haste pretty much, sitting at about 15,7% haste (or 6,7k rating I believe), and to be honest, I didn't have any moments when I felt that I was soft or squishy, and I don't believe we had a single tank death on me (before we called a wipe). I was tanking 2 bosses for the entirety of the encounter and our DK was tanking one by himself, we felt it was much better than way because I took way less damage than him (ended up taking about 30-40% less damage WHILE tanking 2, and before you ask - no he's not doing anything wrong) AND I didn't get any Guard procs while tanking the lone boss (obviously). While tanking 2 bosses however, I pulled over 160k DPS and put a LOT of Guards up on the raid which I believe ultimately saved a lot of people.

    It feels to me that expertise hard cap is fine to skip (talked about it a couple pages ago), but it's totally fine to go for as well. Haste is just my personal preference, since it seems that I can keep an 90%+ uptime on Shuffle, and use all my other Chi abilities worth using (PB, Guard and Chi Wave).

  7. #727
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avalya View Post
    Cleared SG HC last night, and I went with hit and expertise soft cap, then full haste pretty much, sitting at about 15,7% haste (or 6,7k rating I believe), and to be honest, I didn't have any moments when I felt that I was soft or squishy, and I don't believe we had a single tank death on me (before we called a wipe). I was tanking 2 bosses for the entirety of the encounter and our DK was tanking one by himself, we felt it was much better than way because I took way less damage than him (ended up taking about 30-40% less damage WHILE tanking 2, and before you ask - no he's not doing anything wrong) AND I didn't get any Guard procs while tanking the lone boss (obviously). While tanking 2 bosses however, I pulled over 160k DPS and put a LOT of Guards up on the raid which I believe ultimately saved a lot of people.

    It feels to me that expertise hard cap is fine to skip (talked about it a couple pages ago), but it's totally fine to go for as well. Haste is just my personal preference, since it seems that I can keep an 90%+ uptime on Shuffle, and use all my other Chi abilities worth using (PB, Guard and Chi Wave).
    Well i had the same feeling as you on stoneguard, the healers kept saying i was easier to heal(even when tanking 2) and i had INSANE amount of dps(ended with 250k~ on the kill). Problem is now Feng, where the healers just say I drop from full to 0 in matter of seconds. In the logs i have good shuffle uptime and fairly decent Guard uptime. The culprit seems to be getting a melee hit, stagger hit, spiritbolt and the dot tick at roughly the same time. I have now regemmed and re enchanted for some extra HP and also considiring running double stam trinkets for this fight. Anyone else noticed something similar?

  8. #728
    Quote Originally Posted by imbanane View Post
    Didnt kill Feng hero .... 1,4 % wipe ... I dropped the exp hard cap for the first time and had no big issues. There is just a hell lot of tank and raid dmg in this fight ...
    At Stone guard i felt much more stable with exp soft cap and more focus on EH.

    Overall I think the difference is so little (between exp sof and hard cap) that it comes down to personal reference. It is by far more important to use the abbilities right and at the proper time
    I really don't see where all this horrible damage is when tanking heroic feng as a monk, we did all the different phases to get a feel for them and honestly I didn't take that much damage, apart from when i let my stacks get up to 4 nearly 5 on the shield phase and died but other than that there was never really an issue, infact i was easier to heal on the spear phase than my blood DK OT.

  9. #729
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Are those #'s on Stone Guard involving anything outside of KS on the rotation hitting both targets? Or is that purely from Blizz 'balancing' of vengeance?

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  10. #730
    Ugh, this news regarding heroic raiding is disturbing to me and was one of my fears switching from my prot warrior to the brewmaster. I love the class, the activeness of the abilities, but I definitely do not want to be gimped to the point that healers cannot heal me on boss fights. To preface, my raid group is nowhere near progressive as a lot of guilds (we are 4/6 normals 10mans). That said, we have in the past and will in the future be clearing heroics.
    Is this a gear issue? Are too many of these progression guilds blowing through normals and starting heroics without fully geared tanks? I know the answer will probably be, well prot warriors and DKs are in the same spot gear wise so that is not an excuse. The real questions is, do monks require more gear as a leather wearing class due to the fact we have less armor mitigation that other tanks? Are monks more gear dependent than the other tanks? On the other hand, is it just a matter of figuring out how to reforge, what stats are more of a priority, etc. Ofcourse, it could mean the level of complexity in our rotation requires most of us to become, dare I say, better players? Your input is greatly appreciated.

  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurhlag View Post
    I really don't see where all this horrible damage is when tanking heroic feng as a monk, we did all the different phases to get a feel for them and honestly I didn't take that much damage, apart from when i let my stacks get up to 4 nearly 5 on the shield phase and died but other than that there was never really an issue, infact i was easier to heal on the spear phase than my blood DK OT.
    You are right the melee hits are not the problem its just the permanent dot on the tanks plus raidwide dmg which makes this encounter quite heal intensive. However brewmaster can help the healers quite a lot in this fight with chiwave while offtanking.

    Here are the logs from our 1% wipe.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=14668&e=15273

    so 30k HPS while toping the damage meters. Brewmaster is just amazing fun to play at the moment

  12. #732
    These are the healing numbers I was seeing in normal mode as well. I hit EH on cd and Chi wave when I have the xtra chi.

  13. #733
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmoor View Post
    Ugh, this news regarding heroic raiding is disturbing to me and was one of my fears switching from my prot warrior to the brewmaster. I love the class, the activeness of the abilities, but I definitely do not want to be gimped to the point that healers cannot heal me on boss fights. To preface, my raid group is nowhere near progressive as a lot of guilds (we are 4/6 normals 10mans). That said, we have in the past and will in the future be clearing heroics.
    Is this a gear issue? Are too many of these progression guilds blowing through normals and starting heroics without fully geared tanks? I know the answer will probably be, well prot warriors and DKs are in the same spot gear wise so that is not an excuse. The real questions is, do monks require more gear as a leather wearing class due to the fact we have less armor mitigation that other tanks? Are monks more gear dependent than the other tanks? On the other hand, is it just a matter of figuring out how to reforge, what stats are more of a priority, etc. Ofcourse, it could mean the level of complexity in our rotation requires most of us to become, dare I say, better players? Your input is greatly appreciated.
    Brewmasters across the board are taking less damage than other tanks in heroics KILLS. This is the nature of our class. They gave us powerful avoidance/mitigation at the cost of defensive cooldowns. Warriors have 6 defensive CDs, Monks have 1 (2 if you count DH/DM).

    With that said, Brewmasters also have the highest skill cap. What I did to kill Stone Guards heroic, is vastly different than my gearing/gemming/talents for Gara'jal. Each fight requires research and different timings.

    Is this going to be the normal for the majority of brewmasters? No. The reason is because of what you said above:

    " Is this a gear issue? Are too many of these progression guilds blowing through normals and starting heroics without fully geared tanks?"

    Yes. My ilvl is 470. I cleared normal vaults with ~463ilvl. I tanked HM Stone guards in the same ilvl that I tanked 5 man heroics. So of course i'm going to take more damage than the majority of brewmasters who will eventually tank HM stone guards in LFR gear or better. But am I taking less damage overall than the other tanks next to me in the same situation as me? Yes.

    In the end and in my opinion, Brewmasters are in a great spot right now. We have areas that could be improved (i'd like to see Fortifying Brew get re-worked), but that can be said about any class.

  14. #734
    Thank you Thoranar! I am glad to see I just need to learn the nuances of the class more than the class being broken.

  15. #735
    Mechagnome Avalya's Avatar
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    Yes, I have to agree that the class seems to be in a good spot at the moment. On some fights we take a lot of damage, on others, not so much, we do great damage, and I can't say I've had any problems with anything I've tanked (nothing that I just can't tank). We only decided to do SG HC as I said this week, and gearing up for next week, where Feng and Gara'jal are likely to drop. We're only raiding 3 nights a week, so 2 HC bosses' worth of progression takes its toll on the hours.

  16. #736
    For the Ox Statue is the 40 yards based on ... where the statue is, where you are? Do you have to be in range of the statue? I just spent the whole night wiping on the Stone Guard, I see two Guard sections under healing done in World of Logs but my statue is not doing many guards compared to my own.... Should I be repositioning my statue? I put it near the centre of the room which doesn't seem to be working out for me.

    The aura I had just tracked that I had the statue buff, I wonder if there's a way to track it based on if it's close enough to give the buff or not.

  17. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by Zene View Post
    For the Ox Statue is the 40 yards based on ... where the statue is, where you are? Do you have to be in range of the statue? I just spent the whole night wiping on the Stone Guard, I see two Guard sections under healing done in World of Logs but my statue is not doing many guards compared to my own.... Should I be repositioning my statue? I put it near the centre of the room which doesn't seem to be working out for me.

    The aura I had just tracked that I had the statue buff, I wonder if there's a way to track it based on if it's close enough to give the buff or not.
    On stone guards you have to TRY to not be in range of your statue. Your taunt has a 40 yard range... if the statue is between you and the dogs you aren't tanking, you're fine. As well, keep in mind that you need to do 1600% of your attack power, including vengeance, in order for your statue to throw off a Guard. If your damage is low, you'll see less of them. If your group is wiping fairly quickly, you'll see less of them.
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  18. #738
    Quote Originally Posted by Zene View Post
    For the Ox Statue is the 40 yards based on ... where the statue is, where you are? Do you have to be in range of the statue? I just spent the whole night wiping on the Stone Guard, I see two Guard sections under healing done in World of Logs but my statue is not doing many guards compared to my own.... Should I be repositioning my statue? I put it near the centre of the room which doesn't seem to be working out for me.

    The aura I had just tracked that I had the statue buff, I wonder if there's a way to track it based on if it's close enough to give the buff or not.
    Honestly this is my one problem atm, i really think they should increase the range of the statue to something like 100 yards, nearly all the boss fights have quite a bit room to work with and you usually have to tank things far away from each other so i think this is a needed change.

    Fights like stone guard, spirit kings, elegon and will of the emperor all have issues with the ox statue not being in range of everyone and every little bit helps when your trying to kill things on heroic.

  19. #739
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurhlag View Post
    Honestly this is my one problem atm, i really think they should increase the range of the statue to something like 100 yards, nearly all the boss fights have quite a bit room to work with and you usually have to tank things far away from each other so i think this is a needed change.

    Fights like stone guard, spirit kings, elegon and will of the emperor all have issues with the ox statue not being in range of everyone and every little bit helps when your trying to kill things on heroic.
    Statue has a 30 sec CD, you can move it around pretty regularly so provided your raid aren't just running around randomly, you can get it where you need it most of the time, it's part of the skill of being a brewmaster, giving it a 100yd range would just make it faceroll imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zene View Post
    For the Ox Statue is the 40 yards based on ... where the statue is, where you are? Do you have to be in range of the statue? I just spent the whole night wiping on the Stone Guard, I see two Guard sections under healing done in World of Logs but my statue is not doing many guards compared to my own.... Should I be repositioning my statue? I put it near the centre of the room which doesn't seem to be working out for me.

    The aura I had just tracked that I had the statue buff, I wonder if there's a way to track it based on if it's close enough to give the buff or not.
    If you are only tanking the single Dog then do they not take 90% reduced damage, this might be why you aren't guarding much?

  20. #740
    Mechagnome Avalya's Avatar
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    I haven't really had any problems with the statue - if it becomes a range problem you can easily move it. Your low # of guards is probably because you tanked 1 boss, correct? In that case you do 90% reduced damage, but still need to do the required 1600% of your AP in damage. That's like 1 guard every 3-5 minutes, or less. In the case you are tanking 2 of them, you will see guards all over the place.

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