1. #361
    Personally I don't see anymore changes coming. The beta ends in a few days if Diablo 3 is an indicator so we might get 1 new build tops.

    I don't think there will be anything in it except bug fixes and minor tweaks but it really looks like Blizzard is fine with the current state of the spec/class which is kinda set when you look at the MASSIVE amount of Windwalker feedback as well as the negative feedback to the energy regen/stagger nerf.

  2. #362
    I'm still pissed that GC said:

    we are a bit worried about paladin survivability as well. Shield of the Righteous, buffed by mastery, is a massive amount of mitigation, but the risk is that whenever paladins didn't have it available, they'd risk spike damage.
    Ohhh, so it's ok for paladins to have the massive mitigation and to NEVER be at *RISK* spike damage, but it's NOT OK for monks to have smooth damage intake even though we have the least stam/armor/mitigation. It's NOT ok for paladins to not have 100% availability on SotR but:

    You shouldn’t need (or usually want) to keep Shuffle up 100% of the time
    IMADBRAH.

  3. #363
    Ohhh, so it's ok for paladins to have the massive mitigation and to NEVER be at *RISK* spike damage, but it's NOT OK for monks to have smooth damage intake even though we have the least stam/armor/mitigation. It's NOT ok for paladins to not have 100% availability on SotR but:
    I don't think they'll have 100% uptime on SotR though. I know my Warrior won't have 100% uptime on Shield Block/Barrier.

    You shouldn’t need (or usually want) to keep Shuffle up 100% of the time
    I think they're going to have a hard time convincing players of this. They should just make it so we CAN'T keep it up 100% of the time (I liked how it used to stack only up to 12 seconds and that was it).

  4. #364
    I am Murloc! Gallahadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    I don't think they'll have 100% uptime on SotR though. I know my Warrior won't have 100% uptime on Shield Block/Barrier.

    I think they're going to have a hard time convincing players of this. They should just make it so we CAN'T keep it up 100% of the time (I liked how it used to stack only up to 12 seconds and that was it).
    Yup, as a Paladin I've seen MAYBE 60% uptime, outside of crazy RNG (4+back to back Divine Purpose procs), so although I've not played a Brew from what I've seen they will have FAR higher uptime on Shuffle than Pally/Warriors will on thier shield abilities.

    I 100% agree on the second part, if they dont want Shuffle up 100% then they need to boost survivability when it's down, in the same way they have for every other Tank. Tbh you'll notice that ALOT of the nerfs and the 'oh Monks damage intake is much lower' came at the same time they changed shuffle to stack past 12 seconds, I think they REALLY need to revent some/all of the nerfs, and then focus on what is ACTUALLY the problem, namely being able to stack Shuffle up to crazy levels while offtanking, then focus on spamming PB and Guard while holding a boss. We were fine before that it's only since that change was put in that Brews suddenly became a problem.
    Reading the A song of Ice and Fire series is like playing with an adorable puppy, then someone comes up out of nowhere and shoots the puppy, then punches you in the face

  5. #365
    Yup, as a Paladin I've seen MAYBE 60% uptime, outside of crazy RNG (4+back to back Divine Purpose procs), so although I've not played a Brew from what I've seen they will have FAR higher uptime on Shuffle than Pally/Warriors will on thier shield abilities.

    I 100% agree on the second part, if they dont want Shuffle up 100% then they need to boost survivability when it's down, in the same way they have for every other Tank. Tbh you'll notice that ALOT of the nerfs and the 'oh Monks damage intake is much lower' came at the same time they changed shuffle to stack past 12 seconds, I think they REALLY need to revent some/all of the nerfs, and then focus on what is ACTUALLY the problem, namely being able to stack Shuffle up to crazy levels while offtanking, then focus on spamming PB and Guard while holding a boss. We were fine before that it's only since that change was put in that Brews suddenly became a problem.
    I wish they'd say something about the expertise issue besides "we're skeptical." I'd like to see a bit more back and forth between the community and the devs on that one, because its clear we don't see eye to eye. I'm ok with the FoF issue over with WW's now, (I'm coming to terms with the fact that it is not slam, and it is better than behind the back attacks, and there should nearly always be a time where you can channel it even on the most movement intense boss). This is currently my biggest gripe with Monks. I'll hold out hope when they start seeing everyone, their brother, mother, dog, and pet iguana stack exorbitant amounts of expertise on their Monk they'll take another look. Right now I feel like they're too focused on non-class issues and getting MoP released to pay attention.

  6. #366
    Like I said in a previous post, maybe a page or two back, hard capping Expertise is not a needed thing to do.
    The waste of stats that would occur does not out weight the gain currently. I think I go into more detail in that last post.

  7. #367
    Random AM thought -

    It seems to me that there's two ways a class can go about active mitigation. They can either have higher passive survivability and lower AM uptime, or have lower passive survivability, and nearly 100% uptime. In this light, Pallies, Warriors, and Druids (I guess since they use rage? Haven't kept up with them) would fall in the first category, and DKs and Monks fall into the second category. It jives with some of the current changes to BM (and slightly, but not exactly with some of the blue posts).

    Since BoK applies Shuffle even if dodge / Parried, I see the hard Expertise cap as an un-needed thing.

    A Parried KS will not make or break the rotation as far as I see, so I will not be opting for it.
    This one, Alsayyar?

    What about losing the Weakened Blows debuff, or wasting the energy and losing a big source of Chi? BoK doesn't make up for that.
    Last edited by Felade; 2012-09-09 at 07:36 AM.

  8. #368

  9. #369
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    Gothmog's spreadsheets clearly show that we have to be hard capped in order to have the better survivability.
    And it's clearly due to the loss of Chi when KS is parried as the spreadsheet with a unparryable KS show that we then only would need the soft cap. All of this has been reported to GC in the beta class balance thread so, let's hope, now.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Alsayyar View Post
    Like I said in a previous post, maybe a page or two back, hard capping Expertise is not a needed thing to do.
    Actually, there is no such a thing as hard/soft expertise cap. There's just one cap, 15%. What people call "soft cap" is, in MoP, only a very, very soft cap, since it only concerns Expel Harm, which uses the spell hit table. But all the melee attacks use the melee hit table (yeah), which is a bit different from that of Cataclysm, and 7.5% is not a cap at all for them, since in MoP expertise is equally potent before and after this "cap". I'm sure you knew this, but i just wanted to make it clear to highlight my second point :
    Quote Originally Posted by Alsayyar View Post
    The waste of stats that would occur does not out weight the gain currently. I think I go into more detail in that last post.
    Yes, you waste stats. But if hit/exp is the best stat for Brewmasters, then you just need to stack it. You can't say, for example in the case of most DPS specs, "i don't want to get the hit cap because i would have less haste" ; hit cap is simpy a greater DPS gain than an increase of haste.

    As a Brewmaster, you could say "i don't want to reach the exp hard cap, let's hope i won't miss a Keg Smash". That's trying you luck. Remember that missing a KS and shouting "KILL ME" at the boss are two similar things. You'll be naked and the healers will struggle even more than usual to keep you alive for 8 seconds before the next KS. Overall, the numbers tend to show that expertise hardcap brings more survivability than other stats (assuming KS can still be parried). So yes, not reaching the hard cap is a gain of stats, but a loss of survivability.

    The only case in which hard capping expertise is not a priority is when you tank reinforcements of a level inferior to 93 : your 15% exp woud indeed be a pure waste.
    Last edited by Morion; 2012-09-09 at 10:54 AM.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Morion View Post
    As a Brewmaster, you could say "i don't want to reach the exp hard cap, let's hope i won't miss a Keg Smash". That's trying you luck. Remember that missing a KS and shouting "KILL ME" at the boss are two similar things. You'll be naked and the healers will struggle even more than usual to keep you alive for 8 seconds before the next KS. Overall, the numbers tend to show that expertise hardcap brings more survivability than other stats (assuming KS can still be parried). So yes, not reaching the hard cap is a gain of stats, but a loss of survivability.
    A parried KS doesn't even return the energy cost, so you lose the energy, the two chi and the KS cooldown on a parry. The value of one chi defensively is already big, and losing two chi is very painful. Another thing in expertise's favor is that it makes you stronger when you are weakest by eliminating chi-gaps. Not only does it provide more average damage reduction than other stats, it also leads to smoother damage intake. As a comparison something like dodge makes you stronger at a random time.

  12. #372
    Actually, there is no such a thing as hard/soft expertise cap. There's just one cap, 15%. What people call "soft cap" is, in MoP, only a very, very soft cap, since it only concerns Expel Harm, which uses the spell hit table. But all the melee attacks use the melee hit table (yeah), which is a bit different from that of Cataclysm, and 7.5% is not a cap at all for them, since in MoP expertise is equally potent before and after this "cap". I'm sure you knew this, but i just wanted to make it clear to highlight my second point :
    Is it not the case anymore that Dodges are removed at 7.5% expertise, and then Parries would be eliminated at 15%?

    Here's the blue post about hit/exp:

    Hit and spell hit will no longer be separate stats. The hit stat negates melee miss and spell miss.
    Expertise will negate dodge and spell miss, then parry.
    Expertise will be listed as a percentage, just like hit, instead of having an intermediary stat.
    We are normalizing hit with expertise, so that 1% of each stat will require the same amount of rating.
    We are normalizing melee and spell hit, so that spell hit is equal to miss plus dodge.
    Against a +3/boss level creature: 15% spell miss, 7.5% melee miss, 7.5% dodge, 7.5% parry (from the front only), 7.5% block (from the front only).
    So the way I read this, capped hit removes melee special misses, and half of spell misses, at the same time.
    7.5% (soft cap) Expertise removes dodge and spell miss from the table. There's still a 7.5% chance for all melee specials to be parried.

    So a BM Monk with stats equivalent to 7.5% hit and 7.5% expertise would have 15-7.5 hit-7.5 exp=0% chance to miss with spells, 7.5-7.5 hit=0% chance to miss with special attacks, 7.5-7.5 exp=0% chance to have specials dodged, a 7.5-0=7.5% chance to be parried, and 7.5-0=7.5% chance to be blocked?

    I've always understood that "soft cap" on expertise means you can no longer be dodged, but can still be parried? I don't see how this is really changing. Every melee special, not just expel harm, would be subject to that table (and expel harm would actually be better off since 7.5% hit and 7.5% expertise will bring it to 15% hit).

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    I've always understood that "soft cap" on expertise means you can no longer be dodged, but can still be parried? I don't see how this is really changing.
    You've got a soft cap when one of your stats loses part of its value when you reach a certain amount. In Cataclysm (and before), expertise had a soft cap, because it decreased both parry and dodge at the same time. Once you reached the soft cap (when you had no more dodges), expertise decreased only parry, making it less effective.

    But in MoP, expertise decreases dodge up to 7.5%, and then it decreases parry. And it takes the same amount of expertise to decrease parry or dodge by 1%. Therefore expertise now increases the chance to successfully land a melee attack by the same amount whether you are above or under 7.5% (if you're attacking from the front of the boss of course, otherwise the boss can't parry). You can hardly talk of a soft cap, because 7.5% simply means "no more dodge", it does not mean "expertise becomes less good".
    Last edited by Morion; 2012-09-09 at 03:26 PM.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Morion View Post
    You've got a soft cap when one of your stats loses part of its value when you reach a certain amount. In Cataclysm (and before), expertise had a soft cap, because it decreased both parry and dodge at the same time. Once you reached the soft cap (when you had no more dodges), expertise decreased only parry, making it less effective.

    But in MoP, expertise decreases dodge up to 7.5%, and then it decreases parry. And it takes the same amount of expertise to decrease parry or dodge by 1%. Therefore expertise now increases the chance to successfully land a melee attack by the same amount whether you are above or under 7.5% (if you're attacking from the front of the boss of course, otherwise the boss can't parry). You can hardly talk of a soft cap, because 7.5% simply means "no more dodge", it does not mean "expertise becomes less good".
    The soft cap for expertise has always and will continue to be the point where your attacks are impossible to dodge for bosses. It's never been about how useful the stat is before and after the cap in terms of continuing to get expertise. It's a milestone. When someone gets soft cap, their attacks are impossible to dodge or parry, assuming that they are behind the boss, hence why it's a cap. Essentially every DPS spec will not need to go past it, because they won't need it anymore. However, it's position-sensitive, and not the complete cap (IE: the hard cap where your attacks will never be dodged or parried regardless of your positioning around a boss)
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2012-09-09 at 04:10 PM.

  15. #375
    When someone gets soft cap, their attacks are impossible to dodge or parry, assuming that they are behind the boss, hence why it's a cap.
    Its important to say their attacks never could have been parried if they were behind the boss. Mobs can't parry from behind, only from the front. But a tank (especially one that loses their big tanking debuff and lots of resources if they get parried) may consider getting enough expertise to remove parries *from the front* (where tanks stand).

    Soft cap: removal of dodges, from the front or the back (mobs can dodge from behind). 7.5% against boss-level.
    Hard cap: removal of parries from the front. Not really relevant to melee dps (since they'll never be in front unless they're bad), but tanks may need to consider it now that our mitigation depends on our attacks landing. 15% expertise against boss level.

    Below the soft cap, expertise always used to be the best threat stat, since it reduced TWO ways of not landing an attack (dodge AND parry simultaneously). After the cap it was only as good as hit (removing only one non-landing chance, parry).

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    The soft cap for expertise has always and will continue to be the point where your attacks are impossible to dodge for bosses. It's never been about how useful the stat is before and after the cap in terms of continuing to get expertise.
    Well, a soft cap is what you get when a stat becomes less important after a certain value. Take the druids for example : they have several haste soft caps depending on the number of tics added to their HoTs. But this is only semantics. You may call the 7.5% a soft cap for tanks if you wish, the important thing is that when you're tanking the boss, expertise is still as potent after 7.5% and it loses none of its value.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Morion View Post
    Well, a soft cap is what you get when a stat becomes less important after a certain value. Take the druids for example : they have several haste soft caps depending on the number of tics added to their HoTs. But this is only semantics. You may call the 7.5% a soft cap for tanks if you wish, the important thing is that when you're tanking the boss, expertise is still as potent after 7.5% and it loses none of its value.
    When we say expertise soft cap, regardless of class, regardless of spec, we mean the point where expertise no longer provides dodge. Arguing "oh it isn't TECHNICALLY a soft cap" really doesn't mean anything. We call that milestone the soft cap, because for the past seven years, that's what it has been. It's just the name for that milestone now. We're essentially arguing for the sake of arguing, rather than for the sake of fleshing out how stats and gearing will function.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    When we say expertise soft cap, regardless of class, regardless of spec, we mean the point where expertise no longer provides dodge. Arguing "oh it isn't TECHNICALLY a soft cap" really doesn't mean anything. We call that milestone the soft cap, because for the past seven years, that's what it has been. It's just the name for that milestone now. We're essentially arguing for the sake of arguing, rather than for the sake of fleshing out how stats and gearing will function.
    The discussion about softcap & hardcap is slightly pointless because that's not the point of the whole arguing.

    The point is that the Brewmaster is squishy as hell without active mitigation up combined with the fact that we are the only tank spec that loses everything if their resource generator (which is directly linked to AM) misses.
    We lose the 40 energy, we lose 2 Chi, we lose Weakened Blows and we lose the damage.

    Being dependant on AM more than any other tank spec (due to the lack of passive mitigation, namely +armor on the stance or a block mechanic) it's a no go to say it's not intended to get a close to 100% uptime on Shuffle OR enough resources (Chi) to use other AM (e.g. T30 Heals).

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampirion View Post
    The discussion about softcap & hardcap is slightly pointless because that's not the point of the whole arguing.

    The point is that the Brewmaster is squishy as hell without active mitigation up combined with the fact that we are the only tank spec that loses everything if their resource generator (which is directly linked to AM) misses.
    We lose the 40 energy, we lose 2 Chi, we lose Weakened Blows and we lose the damage.

    Being dependant on AM more than any other tank spec (due to the lack of passive mitigation, namely +armor on the stance or a block mechanic) it's a no go to say it's not intended to get a close to 100% uptime on Shuffle OR enough resources (Chi) to use other AM (e.g. T30 Heals).
    Exactly. The only discussion that we should be having in regards to expertise is "Will we really need to reach hard cap, and if so, is there any possible solutions that we can think up that would alleviate this?"

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Exactly. The only discussion that we should be having in regards to expertise is "Will we really need to reach hard cap, and if so, is there any possible solutions that we can think up that would alleviate this?"
    Well there is a simple solution: Put us along with the other tanks in terms of consistency when it comes to resource generators.

    There is no problem with Keg Smash being parried as long as it either refunds energy so that we can use Jab instead (still losing 1 Chi for the same amount of energy) OR generate Chi even if it is parried.
    For me it would even be ok if another Ability (say Tiger Palm) had a chance to reset the CD of Keg Smash because the lack of Chi at the moment forgives neither a flaw in the rotation nor a missed Keg Smash without leaving us without ANY mitigation for a few seconds.

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