1. #3801
    Quote Originally Posted by Araya View Post
    To the person complaining they aren't getting anything from Mogu rubes but they are from the greater charms. You do realize your loot protection is being used on the the Greater charms right? They share the same protection.

    On trinkets I've only heard bad things for RoRo on BrM for a number of reasons. I would imagine the agility/haste from Primordius and Jin'Rokhs trinket being BiS.
    I don't know where you heard the Primordius Trinket was BiS, personally wouldn't be caught dead using it. RoR or Bad Juju with Renataki's are pretty much the best options (if you get them).

  2. #3802
    Quote Originally Posted by Araya View Post
    To the person complaining they aren't getting anything from Mogu rubes but they are from the greater charms. You do realize your loot protection is being used on the the Greater charms right? They share the same protection.

    On trinkets I've only heard bad things for RoRo on BrM for a number of reasons. I would imagine the agility/haste from Primordius and Jin'Rokhs trinket being BiS.
    I think you are misinformed. I dont use a single elder charm on my main, pointless I am 547 ilvl. I am saying elder charm gear drops like mad on alts, but coining mogu runes nets gold week after week.

    Trinkets - Rune is interesting to try out once you are geared. I still don't have it. Otherwise the top 2 are Jinrokh and Council.

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  3. #3803
    I have HT Renataki and H Bad Juju gynshon and normal RoR. If I had a heroic or even tf RoR I'd probably use it over bad juju. I actually like RoR a lot just can't see myself using a normal one of it.
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  4. #3804
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryce View Post
    I have HT Renataki and H Bad Juju gynshon and normal RoR. If I had a heroic or even tf RoR I'd probably use it over bad juju. I actually like RoR a lot just can't see myself using a normal one of it.
    I think it would also depend on 10/25 as well.

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  5. #3805
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    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    I think you are misinformed. I dont use a single elder charm on my main, pointless I am 547 ilvl. I am saying elder charm gear drops like mad on alts, but coining mogu runes nets gold week after week.

    Trinkets - Rune is interesting to try out once you are geared. I still don't have it. Otherwise the top 2 are Jinrokh and Council.
    I don't do BrM outside of Heroic Scenario's and the odd instance so I was going off of hearsay and just what I observed and see that BrM like haste.
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  6. #3806
    Mechagnome Jaja's Avatar
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    I dont think I could see myself using RoR as brewmaster. I like the static stats from H Rentakis + H Juju. That and I get to chill with my Gnomies.

    When it drops I will take it and try it though, as no-one in our 10m needs it anyway
    Last edited by Jaja; 2013-06-17 at 10:46 AM.

  7. #3807
    in a 10m setting, RoRo is quite a few leaps and bounds higher than Bad Juju, and probably even Renataki's. RoRo, makes our secondaries worth more than they are, they make haste and mastery with a certain amount of crit, and seeing as crit is quite godly and no other trinket does this, it is a clear winner.


    10m BrM will never need mastery, except maybe when doing Ra-den in like 525 gear, which shouldnt rly happen with upgrades.

    Skipping out on RoRo, just because one doesn't "feel" like it is doing the raid a disservice.

  8. #3808
    Got the RoRo aswell FINALLY, just curious if u guys reforge differently (ie, like WW monks) or just stick to regular reforging/gemming.

  9. #3809
    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    Got the RoRo aswell FINALLY, just curious if u guys reforge differently (ie, like WW monks) or just stick to regular reforging/gemming.
    I'd imagine most would stick to their regular gearing, because otherwise when it hasn't procced you'll be stuck with a lot of useless haste (and mastery depending on difficulty/mode you're in).

    That said, I am curious about the potential for following the WW gearing model (all 3 stats kept very close with mastery slightly ahead), and seeing some interesting things during the proc. Could we hit 100% mastery? Hm. Let me math it out quickly.

    I've seen a few people able to hit 8k stats in all 3 relevant stats (crit, haste, mastery). So let's roll with that: 8,000 crit, 8,000 haste, 8,001 mastery.

    8,000 + 8,000 = 16,000 * 2 = 32,000 mastery during proc

    960 mastery for 1% of stagger = 32,000/960 = 33.333...% stagger during proc

    8,001 mastery = 8,001/960 = 8.33% stagger at base

    20% stagger baseline, 20% from Shuffle. 5% base from mastery = 40% + 5% + 8.33% + 33.333...% = 86.663% roughly.

    You can then, in theory, use Fortifying Brew for a final 20%, to mean you stagger 100% of all incoming damage.

    Even without FB you're still staggering 86.663% of all damage whenever the proc happens, which is huge. Especially when some other math I've seen indicates that once you start staggering around 70% of all incoming damage, you'll then be able to heal yourself for any damage taken with the T16 4 set bonus.

    I would imagine the above to be fairly gimmicky, but it has potentially interesting applications. Something worth considering for the next tier, at any rate.

  10. #3810
    Best in slot items will give you stats close to 10k ea (instead of the 8k you did). So you can defo go for about 90% + stagger at that point

  11. #3811
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Currently running with RoRo and decided to go with Haste(4500) > Crit+1 > Mastery. Tank deaths for us have been non-issue even in HC 25m so the way I'm looking at it I can get some more mastery and not really effect my DPS.

    Moving (buffed) mastery up to ~10k seemed to make a difference to our healers which was probably the right choice on such a healing intense fight like H Meg.

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  12. #3812
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    Currently running with RoRo and decided to go with Haste(4500) > Crit+1 > Mastery. Tank deaths for us have been non-issue even in HC 25m so the way I'm looking at it I can get some more mastery and not really effect my DPS.

    Moving (buffed) mastery up to ~10k seemed to make a difference to our healers which was probably the right choice on such a healing intense fight like H Meg.
    Correct me if I am wrong, but on H Meg mastery only affects the physical hits on not the breaths, so wouldn't elusive brew after every breath be better? When I am not being lazy, and trust me sometimes I get lazy, I usually have a 7-15 sec EB after every breath, and if I don't, I would have 2p in it's place. I avoid a ton of hits doing it this way.

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  13. #3813
    I'm on a 10m raiding with a very small Hc progression. I'm very competent with the class, but i'm those kind of guys who prioritize the friendship over the progress.

    I'm running with Crit >>>> Haste > Mastery, trying to get the expertise cap (14ish% exp).

    I'm around d 13.4k crit, 5.4k haste 3k mastery (something like that).

    If i go for RoRo over the JuJu, what should i expect? A Dps gain? Squishiness taken to the extreme?

  14. #3814
    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    I'm on a 10m raiding with a very small Hc progression. I'm very competent with the class, but i'm those kind of guys who prioritize the friendship over the progress.

    I'm running with Crit >>>> Haste > Mastery, trying to get the expertise cap (14ish% exp).

    I'm around d 13.4k crit, 5.4k haste 3k mastery (something like that).

    If i go for RoRo over the JuJu, what should i expect? A Dps gain? Squishiness taken to the extreme?
    Do you have 2p tier? You will be squishier when it procs, which is why 2p helps make up for some of that. However on 10m? Probably not that big of a deal tbh.

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  15. #3815
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but on H Meg mastery only affects the physical hits on not the breaths, so wouldn't elusive brew after every breath be better? When I am not being lazy, and trust me sometimes I get lazy, I usually have a 7-15 sec EB after every breath, and if I don't, I would have 2p in it's place. I avoid a ton of hits doing it this way.
    Well the breaths are covered by glyph'd Guard/Diffuse/Zen Med/etc so was really only the physically damage which I felt was pretty high. I also end up on the last and fully buffed Green head so overall I felt like the damage was smoothed out by the extra mastery. Logs show a pretty horrible proc rate for that fight so was only like 1 proc per head and that could have been during Rampage anyways.

    Usually was hitting EB soon as boss started melee after rampage then after every breath with in between depending on RNG of stacks.
    Last edited by SurrealNight; 2013-06-17 at 06:47 PM.

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  16. #3816
    The above hints towards a 25man raiding background, if you are playing in 25man, go for it, and follow what he said.
    Yeah, I don't really get this. Sure, mobs in 10m hit for less, but you also have fewer dedicated healers, and the reduced amount isn't hugely significant. We're talking between about 20-40% less damage is all, and you have 50%-60% fewer healers. I also raid in a progression 10m guild, and have at least an academic appreciation of the damage differential.

    On one hand, I can see that while you don't particularly need mastery in 10m, it's never a bad stat to have some of. I mean, lets step back a moment here to consider - while we do silly amounts of damage as a tank, it's still as a tank. Our survival is of paramount concern. Since you seem to place some value on 2pT15, and as there are going to be times when it's not up, mastery has to be worth something to you, right? Furthermore, tank damage is maximized via gaming vengeance and playing boldly rather than adhering to a static rotation with best itemized gear, and mastery actually helps with that.

    I'm sure everyone has run into the situation where they drop low, expel harm once, remain low, and repeatedly spam that expel harm button non-stop even when they cognitively see that there's more than 1 gcd in between where they could've kicked or tiger palmed. It's a natural panic reaction, just like hitting heavy stagger, using purify, then realize you're missing a chi so you can't breath of fire or rushing jade wind and you have to wait three seconds for sck to finish and mobs are dying around you, which brings me:

    Isn't it a contradiction to acknowledge tanks that avoid mastery like the plague and say haste is the worst stat in all situations?

    It's impossible to avoid mastery and not end up with a ton of haste as a byproduct. Other than that, I agree with everything here.
    What I wanted to convey was: avoid haste like the plague, and if you get any mastery on your gear, reforge into accuracy stats or just leave it as is - there's always going to be some use out of it. It will, in addition to increasing your survival, decreasing the stress on your healers, also be an intangible increase to your dps. I argue that getting into fewer panic mode situations like I described above, coupled with more survival for you to pull tricks like solotanking Tortos + bats, or using hand of protection at 10 stacks of impale on Qon instead of 5, allows you to do more damage than the pittance that haste adds.

    Since this is all based on intangible benefits though, I can't exactly whip out a formula and provide the numerical advantage of mastery. However, I can point to the fact that I've got more rank 1 brewmaster parses than any other monk in the world (7 or 8 in 25H last time I checked), and all of them were done with 10k+ mastery, massively more than you would expect would be ideal, but it obviously works quite well compared to other top parsers who I checked were all running heavy crit with no haste/mastery.

    Best in slot items will give you stats close to 10k ea (instead of the 8k you did). So you can defo go for about 90% + stagger at that point
    Kisho's math actually omitted the mastery buff which actually takes you to 90% right there, I'm somewhat leery of 10k to everything though. I have like 26k combined and there's only two or three ilvls left in my gear to go. Regardless of the actual number, we can agree that a mastery RoRo proc at good gear is essentially physical invulnerability

    Correct me if I am wrong, but on H Meg mastery only affects the physical hits on not the breaths, so wouldn't elusive brew after every breath be better? When I am not being lazy, and trust me sometimes I get lazy, I usually have a 7-15 sec EB after every breath, and if I don't, I would have 2p in it's place. I avoid a ton of hits doing it this way.
    On Megaera, the physical hits are far more dangerous to you than the breath, especially as a brewmaster. When you got a head whacking you for 200k every 0.8 seconds, a little mastery makes the damage more bearable.

  17. #3817
    I disagree. You say its never a bad stat to have some of, but the fact of the matter is ,it is when its alternative is haste and/or crit.

    The thing is, in a 10m setting no one boss will ever be able to melee you to death if you have even semi competent healers. In a 25man, maybe it hitts for half your hp or an arbitrary value where you need a healer to have a close eye on you. In a 10man, you will in most cases not die until you take about 3 melee hits and dont expelharm/gotorbs/HS yourself. Your healers, lowered in number as they may be, have more time to react to you. May be its a disparity between 25man healers and 10man healers, but both 10m healers are ALWAYS looking at the tank when they know the tank will take high damage (if we arent talking about a high dmg scenario, then mastery becomes a moot point). The reason for this is that, they split their focus on only 9 other players, and the tank. Its not hard especially when you have almost double the time to react to the damage than a 25man healer does.

    In most cases, that is the healer aspect, in a 10man, SO much of the healing can be handled by the BrM himself, that he/she can buy a lot of time increasing the reaction period for healers even more. So the fact that you have a dedicated healer in 25mans, really has no spot in an argument to a 10m tank, assuming they have proper healers.

    When it comes down to it, for me personally, i prefer to have the control EB/Staggering gives me, which is scaling with more crit/haste. Than a passive stagger. EB can be timed for the harder hitting phases of a boss in 10man, and only if the RNG gods take a shit on you and you take 4 hits in a row through 85% avoidance will you be in deep shit. And even then, its completely counterable in a 10man, just by pooling energy for EH's, or if extremely scared/undergeared just setting up healing spheres to your flanks and pick them up as extra EH's. I did Megaera Hc in 510 gear as a crit spec, never did i have any problems with it. And when i did, HS and EH pooling was MORE than enough to take care of it.

    Fact of the matter simply is, 10m BrMs can easily get away with 0 mastery as long as they can react to the situation with their own abilities, 25man players can do the same, but most of the time it wont be enough, because they simply hit that much harder.

    Now, if youre a new BrM, and you arent completely confident in your abilities, sure go for mastery as training wheels, but the final result will be, once you have enough confidence, crit will help your raid more.

    Now you might say, all in all vengeance is the major element of our dps, and thats true, but that doesnt mean crit isn't gonna scale it (multiplicative even).




    Finally, this is all coming from experience of this tier and the last. I might actually go for heavy mastery because of the 4 set as it has the capability to be a very OP combo if used properly. Until then, the extra damage i bring from crit will outweigh my failsafe cushion when i take mastery.


    Bout the 10k thing, i calculated that on AMR for windwalker with full bis with 549's and 608, it gave more than 30k total. Its weird for me too, since im at 541 w/o the cloak and im barely reaching 27k but w/e.. thats gear scaling for you.

  18. #3818
    My argument isn't whether you can "get away" with as little mastery as you can - it's been conclusively shown that you can tank 25H with minimal mastery already. The question is, is it optimal?

    Now, theoretically, mastery gives no dps increase for obvious reasons, but I disagree because in reality, knowing you're that much tougher allows you to play more aggressively than you otherwise would. Perhaps not as much as crit, but it definitely blows haste out of the water.

    Other than a small fraction of crit's dps, what else does haste bring to the table? I assert that mastery is real-world dps increase over haste.

  19. #3819
    Got 10man Meagera down after 2 solid days of attempts with our newish DK tank. Started a few attempts on Ji-Kun and will get back to him this weekend. During a wipe I wanted to see how many talon rakes I could take. I died at the 5th rake with no CDs running, only 20k overkill. A guard would have probably kept me alive. Fort Brew or Dampen Harm would have for sure.

    Is there any reason for me to go more than 3-4 talon rakes other than to keep my Vengeance running and my dps up?

  20. #3820
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimzum View Post
    Got 10man Meagera down after 2 solid days of attempts with our newish DK tank. Started a few attempts on Ji-Kun and will get back to him this weekend. During a wipe I wanted to see how many talon rakes I could take. I died at the 5th rake with no CDs running, only 20k overkill. A guard would have probably kept me alive. Fort Brew or Dampen Harm would have for sure.

    Is there any reason for me to go more than 3-4 talon rakes other than to keep my Vengeance running and my dps up?
    not on normal really. on heroic though it is helpful to be able to take 4-5 to allow for more flexible platform assignments.
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