1. #3861
    Ya know, I hadn't even considered that heroic scenarios could drop a 516 weapon. I should definitely get on that, then. I'll start running those more often and upgrade some of the non-tier pieces (already have the VP trinket 2/2, but working around that hit is a bit of a pain sometimes).

    Thanks a bunch!

  2. #3862
    Pandaren Monk Spacebubble's Avatar
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    Read the guide, read some comments, left me wondering a bit. if I'm a 470 BrM who hasn't really played BrM before just trying to catch up on gear (getting to roughly 500) through lfr and t14 normals - what stat priority would you suggest I follow?

  3. #3863
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayre View Post
    Ya know, I hadn't even considered that heroic scenarios could drop a 516 weapon. I should definitely get on that, then. I'll start running those more often and upgrade some of the non-tier pieces (already have the VP trinket 2/2, but working around that hit is a bit of a pain sometimes).

    Thanks a bunch!
    I'm sort of in a similar boat. I'm using a 516 in my main hand and the double upgraded LFR claw in my offhand. We're not clearing as much as you are, we got ji-kun to 13% with some subs on our first 5 attempts just the other day, and we have an enhancement shaman who I'd pass the first wep off council to, if it even exists. The only thing I don't like about the 516 wep is that you can't put a prismatic socket from Wrathion in it.

  4. #3864
    Hello fellow brewmasters.. long time reader, first time poster..

    I have recently switched guilds ( a couple times really, looking for the right fit) including going from 25 to 10 man. In my current guild we are using a monk and a druid as our primary healers, and I am feeling squishy for the first time. I have been used to having a disc priest, and if not a holy pally, in all my previous setups.

    What I am trying to figure out is A) am I just being squishy? but I have never really had an issue before. B) Are my current healers just not optimum? since they are typically considered strong raid healers, and are lacking shields. C) Are my current healers are probably just adapting to me and some time will improve. or D) Are my current healers weak?

    One factor to consider is that the two tanks they have been used to healing a Prot Pally and a DK stack a ton of EH sporting in the middle 800s in Health Pool neither favoring dps stats (no exp caps, no haste builds etc) compares to my low 600s crit build. Granted, i do twice their dps, and pull aggro every time I sneeze, but I am feeling squishier.

    One option to mirror what they are used to is to switch to a 25 man mastery build.. Thoughts

    (note we are 5 HM in, so progression but not cutting edge, ilvls about 525 to 530)

  5. #3865
    What I am trying to figure out is A) am I just being squishy? but I have never really had an issue before. B) Are my current healers just not optimum? since they are typically considered strong raid healers, and are lacking shields. C) Are my current healers are probably just adapting to me and some time will improve. or D) Are my current healers weak?
    Does it particularly matter where the fault lies? If you're not dying, then whatever, everything's groovy. But if you are, then the guild should take steps to fixing it, and as far as I can tell, gearing for some more mastery is orders of magnitude easier than getting your healers to improve their skill/getting new healers. Sure, you'll only be outdamaging the other tanks by 90% instead of 100% (or you might not even drop in dps, see my posts on page 191/192), but it's worth it if it keeps you alive.

    Once you're done with progression, then fine, ease back on the mastery and start exploring your limits, but there's no real point in insisting on a glass cannon build as a tank during progression if it keeps getting you killed and you don't need the dps to meet enrage.

    Also, it's hard to tell what's happening without links to parses. But in general, agility/evasion tanks are simply going to be spikier to heal than plate tanks.

  6. #3866
    Hey guys, thanks for the help on the log, already improved a lot, found myself changing some items so I already got a better shuffle uptime, thought didn't try lei shen yet.

    I have a peculiar question: can we simcraft as tanks? I'm having many issues trying to decide my gems and gear upgrades, and I don't want to be asking every time for help.I had found a spreadsheet on EJ, but it's not updated, and I can't find more updated tools. For example right now I can't decide between my current equipped bracers(bracers of the midnight comet with 858 expertise, less agi but a yellow socket) or bindings of multiplicative strike (522 version), and I also can't figure out why most monks would match the dodge sockets on the chest, which I just got as my 4th piece....I can't see why not just go for 3x 320 secondary stat ones, leaning between haste or crit right now since I use a crit RoRo build...

    I'm just feeling I'm not optimizing my gear enough and I want to do that as I used to do with simcraft for my shadow priest but can't find the tools.I also don't like askmrrobot so I never use it and would love to keep it that way, if that's somehow required.

    Reforgelite is also a pain with his only 2 caps accepted, I have too often to reforge between brew and WW and it's just horrible when the addon doesn't want to co-operate with my rune of reorigination...

    edit: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...uyuki/advanced forgot my armory, going to just put it in my signature lol xD
    Last edited by Neviskio; 2013-06-20 at 01:58 AM.

  7. #3867
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    I'm sort of in a similar boat. I'm using a 516 in my main hand and the double upgraded LFR claw in my offhand. We're not clearing as much as you are, we got ji-kun to 13% with some subs on our first 5 attempts just the other day, and we have an enhancement shaman who I'd pass the first wep off council to, if it even exists. The only thing I don't like about the 516 wep is that you can't put a prismatic socket from Wrathion in it.

    Hah, even more of a similar situation: I also have an enhancement shaman in my guild. But I'm fairly sure that it either wouldn't be as big an upgrade for him as it would be me, or it would be pretty similar. He's got a 2x522 weapons, but his MH is a strength weapon instead of agility.

    Swear to god, if you say your co-tank is a druid, I'm gonna be upset. :P
    Last edited by Nayre; 2013-06-20 at 03:18 AM.

  8. #3868
    Quote Originally Posted by bhambhoo View Post
    Hello fellow brewmasters.. long time reader, first time poster..

    I have recently switched guilds ( a couple times really, looking for the right fit) including going from 25 to 10 man. In my current guild we are using a monk and a druid as our primary healers, and I am feeling squishy for the first time. I have been used to having a disc priest, and if not a holy pally, in all my previous setups.

    What I am trying to figure out is A) am I just being squishy? but I have never really had an issue before. B) Are my current healers just not optimum? since they are typically considered strong raid healers, and are lacking shields. C) Are my current healers are probably just adapting to me and some time will improve. or D) Are my current healers weak?

    One factor to consider is that the two tanks they have been used to healing a Prot Pally and a DK stack a ton of EH sporting in the middle 800s in Health Pool neither favoring dps stats (no exp caps, no haste builds etc) compares to my low 600s crit build. Granted, i do twice their dps, and pull aggro every time I sneeze, but I am feeling squishier.

    One option to mirror what they are used to is to switch to a 25 man mastery build.. Thoughts

    (note we are 5 HM in, so progression but not cutting edge, ilvls about 525 to 530)
    One thing I want to point out is that there's a big difference between asking your healers to get better and insisting they pull their heads outa their ass.

    If you can't adapt to a different tank type as a healer, you're a rubbish healer. If the issue is that they're weak healers, then you need to adjust for them. If the issue is that they're lazy/stupid and refuse to treat you differently than previous tanks, then they need to wake up and make changes to how they're looking at you as a tank.


    Kaiadam's got the right idea though, as long as the bosses die, it doesn't really matter what else happens. Do what you need to do to live, and if your DPS suffers, only worry if you're hitting enrage.


    Of course it's entirely possible that you're just not doing everything you should/could be doing, but without logs it's hard to say.

  9. #3869
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayre View Post
    Hah, even more of a similar situation: I also have an enhancement shaman in my guild. But I'm fairly sure that it either wouldn't be as big an upgrade for him as it would be me, or it would be pretty similar. He's got a 2x522 weapons, but his MH is a strength weapon instead of agility.

    Swear to god, if you say your co-tank is a druid, I'm gonna be upset. :P
    My enh buddy has 2 510s from LFR, think a council axe and a consorts fist. And no my co-tank is a pally who had to change his gearing style to keep up with my threat. Even a cancel aura Vengeance macro on my part and I'd pull off him before. There is a DK main tank in a guild ahead of us on my server and he bitches at me every Nalak/Oondasta group b/c he can't keep threat off me to save his life.

  10. #3870
    Is this updated?

  11. #3871
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    My enh buddy has 2 510s from LFR, think a council axe and a consorts fist. And no my co-tank is a pally who had to change his gearing style to keep up with my threat. Even a cancel aura Vengeance macro on my part and I'd pull off him before. There is a DK main tank in a guild ahead of us on my server and he bitches at me every Nalak/Oondasta group b/c he can't keep threat off me to save his life.
    Hah, good. Some differences then. :P

    Tanking with a 528 bear (to my 514 or 516 equipped ilevel)... I'm amazed if I pull. Normally, I'm having to make sure that he doesn't pull off of me. Sometimes unsuccessfully. The thought of having a cancelaura macro for vengeance makes me cringe. Even in LFR when I have a warrior as my co-tank (seems like 90%+ of the time I'll have threat issues with them) I don't do it. I just let tiger palm fall off if needbe and keep rotationing otherwise until I can put TP back in and not pull.

  12. #3872
    Successfully kited tortos this week.

    Was hard. But not as terrible as I thought it'd be.

  13. #3873
    Quote Originally Posted by bhambhoo View Post
    Hello fellow brewmasters.. long time reader, first time poster..

    I have recently switched guilds ( a couple times really, looking for the right fit) including going from 25 to 10 man. In my current guild we are using a monk and a druid as our primary healers, and I am feeling squishy for the first time. I have been used to having a disc priest, and if not a holy pally, in all my previous setups.

    What I am trying to figure out is A) am I just being squishy? but I have never really had an issue before. B) Are my current healers just not optimum? since they are typically considered strong raid healers, and are lacking shields. C) Are my current healers are probably just adapting to me and some time will improve. or D) Are my current healers weak?

    One factor to consider is that the two tanks they have been used to healing a Prot Pally and a DK stack a ton of EH sporting in the middle 800s in Health Pool neither favoring dps stats (no exp caps, no haste builds etc) compares to my low 600s crit build. Granted, i do twice their dps, and pull aggro every time I sneeze, but I am feeling squishier.

    One option to mirror what they are used to is to switch to a 25 man mastery build.. Thoughts

    (note we are 5 HM in, so progression but not cutting edge, ilvls about 525 to 530)
    In a 25 man guild, you generally will have a dedicated more or less full timer healer for when you're tanking, in 10 man this is not the case.

    Speaking from personal experience, at the very start of mop my healers went through a similar transition saying BrMs are very different to heal compared to other tank classes. We take very little/no damage sometimes especially when EB procs are being used/guard. Then when we start taking damage, healers don't prioritize immediately, beneficial buffs from healers may be lacking and there is a potential to spiral downhill if healers don't prioritize tank healing. We don't assign healers so I got the impression both healers thought the other one was healing me at times.

    I made my healers aware of the situation, they initially denied not prioritizing tank healing and tried to claim "tank just died in a few sec", for which I love logs and recount, once healers realized what was happening, they adjusted and haven't had any problems since.

    As a 525 ilvl+ you certainly wont need a mastery based build in a 10 man heroic environment to reduce your squishiness on anything pre Ra-Den, Primordius is the only boss I found that actually hits hard at times, we solved that one by going from 2 to 3 healers making mastery considerations redundant, with the amount of magic damage on that fight I'm not sure it would serve any purpose anyway.

    I can't comment on if you are actually playing badly and making yourself squishy as you haven't linked any logs of your performance, but I suspect this would have been noticed in your original 25 man environment if that was the case.

  14. #3874
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trendy-Ideology View Post
    Successfully kited tortos this week.
    What makes me lol is I'm rank 168 on Tortos even though I've only ever kited. Apparently the DPS I did before 1st bat spawn put me over the top =P

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  15. #3875
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nayre View Post
    Hah, good. Some differences then. :P

    Tanking with a 528 bear (to my 514 or 516 equipped ilevel)... I'm amazed if I pull. Normally, I'm having to make sure that he doesn't pull off of me. Sometimes unsuccessfully. The thought of having a cancelaura macro for vengeance makes me cringe. Even in LFR when I have a warrior as my co-tank (seems like 90%+ of the time I'll have threat issues with them) I don't do it. I just let tiger palm fall off if needbe and keep rotationing otherwise until I can put TP back in and not pull.
    The thing I like about the cancel aura macro is that I can keep my rotation unchanged which helps with statue guards. The amount of damage you need to deal to proc a guard scales with your vengeance, so it really doesn't change the number or attacks you need to do to proc. If I can cancel vengeance and keep attacking normally I'll throw out an extra guard that I wouldn't have if I had just stopped attacking.

  16. #3876
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    What makes me lol is I'm rank 168 on Tortos even though I've only ever kited. Apparently the DPS I did before 1st bat spawn put me over the top =P
    Huh. Guess that pretty much confirms that BrM that are doing this fight are pretty much all kiting.

    I was fairly nervous about getting my path down, so I didn't really do much prior to the bats coming out.


    We'd tried me kiting a few times, when we first started learning the fight. We didn't make much progress for various reasons and I was having issues with reversing my camera. (Ended up doing it non-reversed on our kill) and we tried a lot of other options... when we finally had me do kiting again, it took like 3 attempts to get a kill.

  17. #3877
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    We started with me on the boss since it's kind of a rough fight for Bear's (tough to keep shell up) and our DK trying to kite but just always got caught eventually especially towards the end. Took us about 11 attempts between me learning to kite and raid not failing. Things that helped me most were:
    - Chi Torpedo
    - Chi Wave macro'd to bounce on crystal first.
    - Charging Ox
    - Unpinned camera so it wouldn't snap back behind me.
    - Chi Torpedo

    Basically just start a large lazy circle soon as 1st spawn comes down, Chi Torpedo right before a stomp or if in trouble, and turn and fire a Charging Ox stun if my flying friends are getting to close. I also try to loop around the players that complain about framerate issues they cause the most too =P

    Repeat kills aren't really an issue (which I've seen people voice as reason to not kite) if you get good at it, only had one wipe this week and was completely my derp. Though guild always voices their appreciation after each kill cause they know it's kind of a suck job. At least I know our other tank is on bitch duty once we get to Ra-Den!

    If the new Healing Elixirs was live this is probably a scenario where I would take it in case I get caught have a better chance at escaping.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  18. #3878
    Hello fellow brewmasters.. long time reader, first time poster..

    I have recently switched guilds ( a couple times really, looking for the right fit) including going from 25 to 10 man. In my current guild we are using a monk and a druid as our primary healers, and I am feeling squishy for the first time. I have been used to having a disc priest, and if not a holy pally, in all my previous setups.

    What I am trying to figure out is A) am I just being squishy? but I have never really had an issue before. B) Are my current healers just not optimum? since they are typically considered strong raid healers, and are lacking shields. C) Are my current healers are probably just adapting to me and some time will improve. or D) Are my current healers weak?

    One factor to consider is that the two tanks they have been used to healing a Prot Pally and a DK stack a ton of EH sporting in the middle 800s in Health Pool neither favoring dps stats (no exp caps, no haste builds etc) compares to my low 600s crit build. Granted, i do twice their dps, and pull aggro every time I sneeze, but I am feeling squishier.

    One option to mirror what they are used to is to switch to a 25 man mastery build.. Thoughts

    (note we are 5 HM in, so progression but not cutting edge, ilvls about 525 to 530)
    A Monk and a Druid tend to favor raid healing as a playstyle, and tank healing tends to be a bit of an afterthought for them as a habit. Big health pools on their old tanks probably reinforced this. Hard to tell without logs.

    Remember the Crit build requires you to be smart about using Guard, Elusive Brew, and Purifying your Stagger. Work on your UI a bit to make sure you're using these optimally. Elusive Brew is great for tanking lots of adds, and for phases of high boss damage (like Will of the Emperor outside of dancing). Guard (remember it scales with Vengeance, so don't pop it unless you have decent vengeance, say, 50k+) you can treat like a mini Shield Wall, or you can use it as an emergency cooldown to stabilize yourself when you are low (and buff those expel harms/level 30 talents to recover). I start to consider purifying around 20k, I believe around 40k is a red stagger (not sure, my UI is set up to show numbers, not the colors). Purifying at a lower number can help with healing, especially in preparation for big damage intake or a disruption in healing (having to move, healers having to dodge lots of stuff or have a different mechanic coming up). I find poor Stagger management and our mobility can really catch healers off-guard.

    I also find that having a Disc Priest and/or a Holy Paladin on your healing team can be sort of a crutch for tanks. You don't see your health bar move, and you feel invincible, when you are actually getting smashed, but those shields are doing all your work for you. This allows you to be a bit sloppy with active mitigation. Once you swap to a more reactive healing team, its going to feel like you're much more squishy, and will feel the need to rely on your active mitigation a bit more.

    If your healers aren't complaining too much, I'd put the effort into training them (and yourself) and stick with the crit build. I'd have a separate Mastery/Stam set set aside, ready to go too, though.
    Last edited by Felade; 2013-06-21 at 08:44 PM.

  19. #3879
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    The thing I like about the cancel aura macro is that I can keep my rotation unchanged which helps with statue guards. The amount of damage you need to deal to proc a guard scales with your vengeance, so it really doesn't change the number or attacks you need to do to proc. If I can cancel vengeance and keep attacking normally I'll throw out an extra guard that I wouldn't have if I had just stopped attacking.
    Both ways have merits, I think. You'd be putting out more raid-guards than I would, but I'd be putting out bigger guards(since the strength of the guard is also based on AP/vengeance). I like not cancelling it, 'cause then once the other tank has a comfortable lead, I can just go back to rotationing as normal and (hopefully) still have some vengeance and end up with a net gain.

    Though more likely, it's prob'ly about the same. I'm way too lazy to math it out. :P

  20. #3880
    Crackling Jade Lightning is completely useless correct?

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