1. #461
    From a tanking perspective will be wiser to level as BM... just to get the feeling of the spec, let's say as a WW is going to be 30 hrs... bm will be 35 hs? i pay the tax very happy. Im doing RaF so... got 9 lvl to get used to.

    Just one concern, i read somewere about one issue with vengance scaling/skill mechanic that makes "maybe" leveling as BM not very good. Any inputs abou it?

    thx

  2. #462
    I just jumped on the beta again... I had been planning to level as BM since when i first leveled a BM at the start of the beta it was just as fast if not faster than WW but now I've tried it again i'm beginning to change my mind..

    WW can keep itself up with a few mobs and can fly through mobs like there's no tomorrow as well as having the extra mobility and the fact that your options of mass pulling things will look slim on release day i'm thinking WW would be the better spec to level in.. i plan to have dual spec with BM so i can switch to it if i want to run a dungeon but i don't really plan on doing dungeons anyway

    One thing is though.. i'm expecting the 80-85 zones to be pretty empty so i'm wondering if leveling as BM through those would be better than WW seeing as i can actually pull a lot of mobs through-out the zones

  3. #463

    Unhappy

    so no new build of beta this last reset ?

  4. #464
    So one think got me thinking and I hope you guys could help me out there:

    Why has Guard a 2 Chi cost when the cooldown is as long as the duration BUT when actively tanking the absorb is gone in like 2 oder 3 seconds?!
    To me it is similar to Bone Shield which has no more costs and comes with 6 charges.

    So we all agree that the Brewmaster has not enough "oh shit" buttons compared to other tanks:

    I counted them for all tanks and at the end of they day Brewmaster has just one with Fortifying Brew while the next tank (Warrior I think) has at least 3.
    Furthermore Druids can get Renewal as a talent, being a free 3 min cooldown healing them for 30% of their max. HP.
    Meanwhile Ghostcrawler says we shouldn't be using our T30 Talents "rotationally" but to get the same amount of heal out of them compared to Druids we have to use them fairly rotational. Looking at the fact that we are the Tank Spec that gets the most damage without Active Mitigation I just don't see why it is dumbed down to Shuffle + PB and the occasional Guard...

  5. #465
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampirion View Post
    So one think got me thinking and I hope you guys could help me out there:

    Why has Guard a 2 Chi cost when the cooldown is as long as the duration BUT when actively tanking the absorb is gone in like 2 oder 3 seconds?!
    To me it is similar to Bone Shield which has no more costs and comes with 6 charges.

    So we all agree that the Brewmaster has not enough "oh shit" buttons compared to other tanks:

    I counted them for all tanks and at the end of they day Brewmaster has just one with Fortifying Brew while the next tank (Warrior I think) has at least 3.
    Furthermore Druids can get Renewal as a talent, being a free 3 min cooldown healing them for 30% of their max. HP.
    Meanwhile Ghostcrawler says we shouldn't be using our T30 Talents "rotationally" but to get the same amount of heal out of them compared to Druids we have to use them fairly rotational. Looking at the fact that we are the Tank Spec that gets the most damage without Active Mitigation I just don't see why it is dumbed down to Shuffle + PB and the occasional Guard...
    Guard also boosts healing. This includes Expel Harm, Tier 30, Gift of the Ox, and any heals coming your way. Also Tiger Palm (which is free) boosts its effectiveness.

    When you say "Oh shit" buttons you're talking about cooldowns right?

    There is Elusive Brew. 30% increased chance to dodge is nothing to sneeze at. We also have pretty strong self-healing with Gift of the Ox and Expel Harm/Desperate Measures.

    I haven't played Druid or Warrior tanks in the beta, so I can't really compare.

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Guard also boosts healing. This includes Expel Harm, Tier 30, Gift of the Ox, and any heals coming your way. Also Tiger Palm (which is free) boosts its effectiveness.

    When you say "Oh shit" buttons you're talking about cooldowns right?

    There is Elusive Brew. 30% increased chance to dodge is nothing to sneeze at. We also have pretty strong self-healing with Gift of the Ox and Expel Harm/Desperate Measures.

    I haven't played Druid or Warrior tanks in the beta, so I can't really compare.
    The point of the healing boost of Guard is that it's gone in a few seconds because it's tied to the absorb.
    As you might know there is almost no Chi to use the T30 Talents without giving up Shuffle for a certain amount of time.

    Sure Gift of the Ox and Expel Harm are boosted but how many Orbs can you pick up while Guard is up and how often can you cast Expel Harm in that duration? Not much.
    And I don't know where you got the thing with "any heals coming your way" but I am really sure that it's only self-heal.

    Elusive Brew might have a cooldown but it's definitely not an "oh shit" button.
    It's unreliable on 2 parts: first you could only have a few stacks where you're in danger and it won't last long, second it's and avoidance button meaning it's tied to RNG and lets say with Shuffle up & Elusive Brew up I have around 70% avoidance, there is still a 30% chance that the boss hits me straight in the face and I can do nothing about it.

    "Oh shit" buttons are things like Paladin Guardian or Purgatory from Death Knights (although it's passive). Things that save your life when you're in a REAL danger of dying.

    I don't see where the Brewmaster has that kind of stuff.

    We have a freaking T30 Heal we are not allowed to us unless we want to fuck up the rest of our Active Mitigation.
    We have 1! REAL CD - Fortifying Brew which one could see as a bad Shield Wall.
    And we have a unreliable CD that gives us 30% Dodge for a certain amount of time so we can pray to God (or whatever) that we will not be hit.

    I'm glad that I'm tanking with a friggin Druid because I get at least one more CD with Survival Instincts.

    But designing the Brewmaster as the Tank that takes the most damage without Active Mitigation AND giving them less CD's than any other Tank class...
    That's just stupid design.

    Ok so to give you a quick overview of Cooldowns:

    Deathknight: Bone Shield, Dancing Rune Weapon, Rune Tap, Vampiric Blood, Will of the Necropolis, Death Pact(or its equivalents) and Purgatory.
    Warrior: Enraged Regeneration(or its equivalents), Shield Wall, Rallying Cry and Last Stand.
    Druid: Barkskin, Might of Ursoc and Renewal or its equivalents.
    Paladin: Lay on Hands, (Divine Shield), Divine Protection, Sacred Shield(or its equivalents), Ardent Defender and Guardian of Ancient Kings.
    Monk: Fortifying Brew,Dampen Harm(or its equivalents), Chi Wave(or its equivalents) and to a certain extent Expel Harm.

    Sure there are a ton of others like Zen Meditation or Avert Harm for Monks for example but when we talk about Tank Survival Cooldowns thats it.
    So we have 4 cooldowns, we are allowed to use 2 of them because of our resources and Expel Harm on cooldown.
    So we still have MUCH LESS cooldowns than any other class, being the closest to Druids.
    But the bitter truth is that Druids have a much higher passive mitigation than we have so we lose again.

    I don't know how one is not able to see that we REALLY need a competitive Cooldown.
    Last edited by Vampirion; 2012-09-19 at 03:46 AM.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampirion View Post
    So one think got me thinking and I hope you guys could help me out there:

    Why has Guard a 2 Chi cost when the cooldown is as long as the duration BUT when actively tanking the absorb is gone in like 2 oder 3 seconds?!
    To me it is similar to Bone Shield which has no more costs and comes with 6 charges.

    So we all agree that the Brewmaster has not enough "oh shit" buttons compared to other tanks:

    I counted them for all tanks and at the end of they day Brewmaster has just one with Fortifying Brew while the next tank (Warrior I think) has at least 3.
    Furthermore Druids can get Renewal as a talent, being a free 3 min cooldown healing them for 30% of their max. HP.
    Meanwhile Ghostcrawler says we shouldn't be using our T30 Talents "rotationally" but to get the same amount of heal out of them compared to Druids we have to use them fairly rotational. Looking at the fact that we are the Tank Spec that gets the most damage without Active Mitigation I just don't see why it is dumbed down to Shuffle + PB and the occasional Guard...
    Renewal is crap compared to Natures Swiftness. Look at theincbear.com for more info on druids.

    I think you forgot about our tier 75 talents in terms of OH SHIT buttons which are on par with Barkskin. Diffuse Magic will be huge on magic damage fights.

    TBH I think monks are a little undertuned but the numbers can always be fixed after we go live. Blizzard has already stated that they don't want monks ending up like the Wrath DKs did. MASSIVELY OP then NERFED TO THE GROUNDDDDDDD! All because they listened to the community too much.

    I am switching from a druid tank because the rotation is too..............easy I almost want to fall asleep while tanking no nerf DS.

    Also you forgot that monks also get survival instincts through symbiosis. Which I know I will be getting most of the time.
    Last edited by Wreckage827; 2012-09-19 at 04:21 AM.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckage827 View Post
    Renewal is crap compared to Natures Swiftness. Look at theincbear.com for more info on druids.

    I think you forgot about our tier 75 talents in terms of OH SHIT buttons which are on par with Barkskin. Diffuse Magic will be huge on magic damage fights.

    TBH I think monks are a little undertuned but the numbers can always be fixed after we go live. Blizzard has already stated that they don't want monks ending up like the Wrath DKs did. MASSIVELY OP then NERFED TO THE GROUNDDDDDDD! All because they listened to the community too much.

    I am switching from a druid tank because the rotation is too..............easy I almost want to fall asleep while tanking no nerf DS.

    Also you forgot that monks also get survival instincts through symbiosis. Which I know I will be getting most of the time.
    It will still only give us two (three, if you have a druid who is giving you symbiosis over all the other charcters in the raid) personal cooldowns for us to use (Elusive Brew doesn't count, as it's active mitigation. For it to be used like an "oh shit" cooldown would require a bit of RNG to be in your favor as well as sacrificing active mitigation prior to the big hit). That's not that many, especially when you can potentially get fiveish as another tanking spec.

  9. #469
    Also here are two VERY good lists with comparisons of all the tanks.

    http://sunniersartofwar.com/blog/201...ve-mitigation/

    http://sunniersartofwar.com/blog/201...son-cooldowns/

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-18 at 09:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    It will still only give us two (three, if you have a druid who is giving you symbiosis over all the other charcters in the raid) personal cooldowns for us to use (Elusive Brew doesn't count, as it's active mitigation. For it to be used like an "oh shit" cooldown would require a bit of RNG to be in your favor as well as sacrificing active mitigation prior to the big hit). That's not that many, especially when you can potentially get fiveish as another tanking spec.
    The symbiosis buff will generally ALWAYS go to a tank, because tanks get the most benefit out of them. This is beside the point. With how much extra stuff brewmasters have I really don't see it being as bad as people crack it up to be.

    Yes playing a brewmaster is 100% less forgiving than playing a <insert tank here>, you have to actually be doing things outside of your normal rotation to survive. I played both my druid and monk on BETA and didn't feel like there was a MASSIVE difference damage taken wise.
    Last edited by Wreckage827; 2012-09-19 at 04:54 AM.

  10. #470
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampirion View Post
    The point of the healing boost of Guard is that it's gone in a few seconds because it's tied to the absorb.
    As you might know there is almost no Chi to use the T30 Talents without giving up Shuffle for a certain amount of time.

    Sure Gift of the Ox and Expel Harm are boosted but how many Orbs can you pick up while Guard is up and how often can you cast Expel Harm in that duration? Not much.
    And I don't know where you got the thing with "any heals coming your way" but I am really sure that it's only self-heal.
    Keep in mind, you're comparing this to Bone shield, and wondering why it takes a resource.

    Bone shield doesn't absorb damage. It reduces damage by 20%, and after six hits it's gone. It's also on a 1 minute CD.

    Guard absorbs damage completely as long as it holds, boosts your self heals (my mistake) by 30%, and can be enhanced by Tiger Palm strikes. It's on a 30 second CD. As for the shield's strength, Tiger Palm enhances it by 15%, and your Attack Power (+Vengeance) enhances it as well.

    I'm not seeing why you're questioning it's cost.

    I've never lost Guard in "a few seconds" when I used it. Has anyone else? My experience with Guard is that it lasts at least 10 seconds under heavy attacks. However, I tend to cast it with the full Tiger Palm buff (making the guard Icon glow) and a solid amount of Vengeance.

    Regardless, the point is that it's pretty obvious why Guard has a cost attached to it.



    Elusive Brew might have a cooldown but it's definitely not an "oh shit" button.
    It's unreliable on 2 parts: first you could only have a few stacks where you're in danger and it won't last long, second it's and avoidance button meaning it's tied to RNG and lets say with Shuffle up & Elusive Brew up I have around 70% avoidance, there is still a 30% chance that the boss hits me straight in the face and I can do nothing about it.

    "Oh shit" buttons are things like Paladin Guardian or Purgatory from Death Knights (although it's passive). Things that save your life when you're in a REAL danger of dying.

    I don't see where the Brewmaster has that kind of stuff.

    We have a freaking T30 Heal we are not allowed to us unless we want to fuck up the rest of our Active Mitigation.
    We have 1! REAL CD - Fortifying Brew which one could see as a bad Shield Wall.
    And we have a unreliable CD that gives us 30% Dodge for a certain amount of time so we can pray to God (or whatever) that we will not be hit.

    I'm glad that I'm tanking with a friggin Druid because I get at least one more CD with Survival Instincts.

    But designing the Brewmaster as the Tank that takes the most damage without Active Mitigation AND giving them less CD's than any other Tank class...
    That's just stupid design.

    Ok so to give you a quick overview of Cooldowns:

    Deathknight: Bone Shield, Dancing Rune Weapon, Rune Tap, Vampiric Blood, Will of the Necropolis, Death Pact(or its equivalents) and Purgatory.
    Warrior: Enraged Regeneration(or its equivalents), Shield Wall, Rallying Cry and Last Stand.
    Druid: Barkskin, Might of Ursoc and Renewal or its equivalents.
    Paladin: Lay on Hands, (Divine Shield), Divine Protection, Sacred Shield(or its equivalents), Ardent Defender and Guardian of Ancient Kings.
    Monk: Fortifying Brew,Dampen Harm(or its equivalents), Chi Wave(or its equivalents) and to a certain extent Expel Harm.

    Sure there are a ton of others like Zen Meditation or Avert Harm for Monks for example but when we talk about Tank Survival Cooldowns thats it.
    So we have 4 cooldowns, we are allowed to use 2 of them because of our resources and Expel Harm on cooldown.
    So we still have MUCH LESS cooldowns than any other class, being the closest to Druids.
    But the bitter truth is that Druids have a much higher passive mitigation than we have so we lose again.

    I don't know how one is not able to see that we REALLY need a competitive Cooldown.

    They only need a competitive cooldown if you ignore half their abilities. Also Monks have probably the best self healing of any tank in the game.

  11. #471
    I have to agree with Teriz here...

    Sorry but you can't compare a class like monks who have abilities like shuffle with paladin and warrior and even the other classes because no other class works the same way as monks currently, you could say DKs are similar but their still different..

    If monks had a 50% reduce damage CD like GoatK then we would be stupidly OP, think about it.. most classes get hit by a big hit say it takes them down to 15%.. all most of the tanking classes can do is go 'Oh shit heal me' and pop a CD that will reduce the damage they take which they should of used on the big spiking damage where as monks... they get taken down to 15% and they can run through all their Gift of the Ox balls on the floor, as well as expel harm and if its well timed have guard up so you get the extra healing and take no damage what so ever till it breaks and your at full health again without having to shout for heals or hope that your healers are ready for it.

    Also half the CDs you have for other classes have one thing, like increased health by 20% or 20% damage reduction... where as Fortifying Brew Increases your health by 20% and reduces damage taken by 20% as well as increasing your stagger amount by 20% and if you really want you can glyph it so it reduces bleed damage taken by 20% too and it lasts for 20s, so i'd say that's a lot better than any other CD other classes have.

    Monks were never going to be a paladin type class with a butt ton of CDs so all you have to do is get hit in the face and pop the magnitude of CDs you have and not really care about healing yourself. Monks aren't an easy class to play well but just because they don't have enough 'oh shit' buttons doesn't mean their not on par if not better, it just means when you do get hit for something big you adapt your play style to keep yourself alive not just wait for a healer.
    Last edited by Nurhlag; 2012-09-19 at 10:18 AM.

  12. #472
    Well.. monks get survival instincts (50% dr cd) from symbiosis. So if you miss that ability then get a druid into the team

  13. #473
    The point of the healing boost of Guard is that it's gone in a few seconds because it's tied to the absorb.
    On fights devoid of magical damage, we can keep glyphed Guard up 100% for constant 30% healing increase. Combined with our strong spike damage reduction which scales with mastery and the fact that almost every healer has some hots these days, I bet this will be very strong combination in next tier cutting edge progression.

    We have 1! REAL CD - Fortifying Brew which one could see as a bad Shield Wall.
    Shield Wall is 40% damage reduction every 2 minutes, or alternatively 60% damage reduction every 4 minutes if glyphed. Lasts for 12 seconds.
    Fortifying Brew is 20% health increase, 20% damage reduction AND 20% increase in Stagger every 3 minutes. Lasts for 20 seconds.

    Base Stagger is 20%. Mastery can easily give 10%, less if you ignore it competely and more if you stack it, but let's use 10%. Shuffle is 20%. This gives us 50/50 ratio of upfront damage and staggered damage. Now enter Fortifying Brew, 20% increase. Stagger goes to 70%, giving us 30/70 ratio. This means that Stagger part of Fortifying Brew alone gives us 40% damage reduction. And remember, this ratio gets better the more we have mastery. One could argue that Stagger is not true damage reduction but I say this as a former healer, anything that can be healed by merely having hots on a tank should not be considered damage in a first place. And of course if dot gets crazy high we have Purifying Brew.

    Since Stagger increase and damage reduction part of Fortifying Brew are completely separate mechanics, it's safe to say they're calculated multiplicatively. This gives us 100*0.6*0.8=48 damage taken. This means 52% damage reduction from Fortifying Brew. On top of that is 20% health increase and 8 seconds more duration. 1 minute longer cooldown but 12% more damage reduction, or 1 minute shorter cooldown but 8% less damage reduction. Sure I cannot objectively say that Fortifying Brew is better for every situation, but it's pretty damn good and in no way "bad Shield Wall".
    Last edited by Illitti; 2012-09-19 at 01:04 PM.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    Well.. monks get survival instincts (50% dr cd) from symbiosis. So if you miss that ability then get a druid into the team
    Actually 25% 6 sec on a 3 min CD. The Symbiosis Makes the spell half of his original in DR% and time... still...i want it.

    Survival Instincts

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-19 at 03:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Illitti View Post
    On fights devoid of magical damage, we can keep glyphed Guard up 100% for constant 30% healing increase. Combined with our strong spike damage reduction which scales with mastery and the fact that almost every healer has some hots these days, I bet this will be very strong combination in next tier cutting edge progression.


    Shield Wall is 40% damage reduction every 2 minutes, or alternatively 60% damage reduction every 4 minutes if glyphed. Lasts for 12 seconds.
    Fortifying Brew is 20% health increase, 20% damage reduction AND 20% increase in Stagger every 3 minutes. Lasts for 20 seconds.

    Base Stagger is 20%. Mastery can easily give 10%, less if you ignore it competely and more if you stack it, but let's use 10%. Shuffle is 20%. This gives us 50/50 ratio of upfront damage and staggered damage. Now enter Fortifying Brew, 20% increase. Stagger goes to 70%, giving us 30/70 ratio. This means that Stagger part of Fortifying Brew alone gives us 40% damage reduction. And remember, this ratio gets better the more we have mastery. One could argue that Stagger is not true damage reduction but I say this as a former healer, anything that can be healed by merely having hots on a tank should not be considered damage in a first place. And of course if dot gets crazy high we have Purifying Brew.

    Since Stagger increase and damage reduction part of Fortifying Brew are completely separate mechanics, it's safe to say they're calculated multiplicatively. This gives us 100*0.6*0.8=48 damage taken. This means 52% damage reduction from Fortifying Brew. On top of that is 20% health increase and 8 seconds more duration. 1 minute longer cooldown but 12% more damage reduction, or 1 minute shorter cooldown but 8% less damage reduction. Sure I cannot objectively say that Fortifying Brew is better for every situation, but it's pretty damn good and in no way "bad Shield Wall".
    Nice breakdown of the mechanics. Were you get those 0.6 and 0.8 values?
    Last edited by Oppen; 2012-09-19 at 01:36 PM.

  15. #475
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurhlag View Post
    I have to agree with Teriz here...

    Sorry but you can't compare a class like monks who have abilities like shuffle with paladin and warrior and even the other classes because no other class works the same way as monks currently, you could say DKs are similar but their still different..

    If monks had a 50% reduce damage CD like GoatK then we would be stupidly OP, think about it.. most classes get hit by a big hit say it takes them down to 15%.. all most of the tanking classes can do is go 'Oh shit heal me' and pop a CD that will reduce the damage they take which they should of used on the big spiking damage where as monks... they get taken down to 15% and they can run through all their Gift of the Ox balls on the floor, as well as expel harm and if its well timed have guard up so you get the extra healing and take no damage what so ever till it breaks and your at full health again without having to shout for heals or hope that your healers are ready for it.

    Also half the CDs you have for other classes have one thing, like increased health by 20% or 20% damage reduction... where as Fortifying Brew Increases your health by 20% and reduces damage taken by 20% as well as increasing your stagger amount by 20% and if you really want you can glyph it so it reduces bleed damage taken by 20% too and it lasts for 20s, so i'd say that's a lot better than any other CD other classes have.

    Monks were never going to be a paladin type class with a butt ton of CDs so all you have to do is get hit in the face and pop the magnitude of CDs you have and not really care about healing yourself. Monks aren't an easy class to play well but just because they don't have enough 'oh shit' buttons doesn't mean their not on par if not better, it just means when you do get hit for something big you adapt your play style to keep yourself alive not just wait for a healer.
    Great post. Explained it much better than I did.

    Frankly the QQ is getting out of hand across the board. I don't know what people were expecting out of this spec and the class in general, but we're reaching levels of extreme silliness here. When someone believes that Bone Shield is stronger or equal to Guard, BMs lack cooldowns while ignoring everything else about the class, or thinks that Brewmasters are Chi starved despite having numerous ways to generate and store Chi, we've really gone off the rails.

    It's especially telling when Vamp's post was pure QQ bait masked as an honest question about Brewmaster mechanics.

    Brewmaster isn't a perfect spec. It definitely has some flaws. However a lack of cooldowns, resources, and mitigation isn't it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vampirion View Post

    P.S. : Sorry Teriz if my post seemed whiny, wasn't my intention :|
    No worries. I was probably being unduly harsh towards you, which wasn't my intention either.

    I need to stop reading the beta forums. It's making me an angry panda.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2012-09-19 at 02:49 PM.

  16. #476
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Great post. Explained it much better than I did.

    Frankly the QQ is getting out of hand across the board. I don't know what people were expecting out of this spec and the class in general, but we're reaching levels of extreme silliness here. When someone believes that Bone Shield is stronger or equal to Guard, BMs lack cooldowns while ignoring everything else about the class, or thinks that Brewmasters are Chi starved despite having numerous ways to generate and store Chi, we've really gone off the rails.

    It's especially telling when Vamp's post was pure QQ bait masked as an honest question about Brewmaster mechanics.
    I didn't want to QQ and it was in no way masked like this. These were honest concerns but after Nurhlag's breakdown I have to agree with you guys that the Brewmaster seems to handle dangerous situations different than other Tanks.
    Sure, there could always be a time where you are nowhere near your GotO Orbs @ heavy movement fights or just used Guard but it seems like having it ready all the time together with GotO and Expel Harm when there is the need for will seperate good monks from great ones

    As I told you I WILL be co-tanking with a Guardian Druid and I'm glad I get Surv. Instincts but not everyone got that luxury so I'm sure I will adapt over time and someday say "Hey, I don't really need this but it's nice to have".

    Thanks for the numbers Nurhlag, really nice breakdown and much appreciated

    P.S. : Sorry Teriz if my post seemed whiny, wasn't my intention :|

  17. #477
    Its hard to compare Monks easily because they don't have "x ability goes in y slot" like the other tanks. Yes, there's no Shield Wall equivalent, but it still works out that Monks are fine.

    Stagger/Purifying Brew is how we deal with the lack of armor. Your average tank is running around at 50% physical mitigation from armor, and we don't have that - instead we stagger damage. We end up taking more damage overall through stagger DOTs, but that doesn't matter because the DOT ticks slowly. As long as you use BoK and Purifying Brew properly, you'll be just as healable as other tanks. Interestingly, stacking Mastery is like stacking armor. Not that it makes our Mastery attractive, but it might come up at some point.

    Elusive Brew and Guard are our active mitigation equivalents. They are comparable to things like Savage Defense or Shield Barrier. Use them as you would other AM abilities.

    As for actual cooldowns - Fortifying Brew is a Last Stand equivalent. It is nothing special, but it is nice that you get a nice damage reduction bonus out of using it preemptively. It is also kind of neat that it allows you to stagger (and thus, clear with purify) additional damage. In a sense, that means there's more damage reduction from this than is actually on the tooltip.

    Dampen Harm and Diffuse Magic - these make up for our lack of a Shield Wall-type CD. Honestly, since most big damage hits are magic, having Dispersion as a tank on a 1.5 min CD is going to be pretty OP.

    Avert Harm and Zen Meditation provide interesting utility - potentially, we can soak an attack for the MT while offtanking. Also, being able to build up shuffle while offtanking will be nice.

    We get A LOT of avoidance from our rotation and passively, so that helps balance us out a bit. The 1.5 min CD on our talented CDs helps balance out our lack of a 1 min CD that other tanks have. Also, the fact that Fortifying Brew does double duty as a damage reduction CD helps too.

    Personally, I like that we get so much benefit from expertise and hit (I hate missing all the time as a tank) and that Parry and Dodge seem to be low on our stat priority list. We could be a high damage tank, which is not an insignificant thing when you need every last drop of damage for progression. Also, as pointed out, our self healing is pretty good.

    Drawbacks - we do have fewer actual damage reduction buttons, which did end up mattering quite a bit in Heroic DS (see: Warriors). The fact that we have to make up for our lack of armor through our rotation makes us a bit more complicated to play than the other tanks, but I think that is honestly a plus, and it isn't so terrible to watch shuffle and a stagger DOT. Sharing loot with DPS could be a drawback, but it all depends on how your raid is set up. If you have TONs of agility DPS in your group, maybe Monk isn't a good choice to add to your raid team atm...

    The mobility of a Warrior, damage of Bear, and the survivability and self-healing of a Shadow Priest, rolled into one tank spec...Brewmaster will be lots of fun.

  18. #478
    The problem with Monks isn't necessarily mechanical. While they have fewer cooldowns overall if you try to draw a 1:1 comparison, but there are some "niche" ones that take the place of others quite nicely (e.g., a paladin may have to pop GoAK to survive an Impale-type mechanic, but a monk could use Zen Meditation and then still have Fortifying Brew up later).

    The problem is more baseline numbers. The idea is that monks take damage "smoothly", but take more overall to compensate. The problem is since the nerfs to energy regen and baseline stagger, monks actually take the most burst damage out of any tank on top of taking the most overall damage. The only way to make up for that is with self-healing and avoidance (both of which are higher than average), but both of those are highly RNG-dependant mechanics.

    My fear for the Brewmaster is that the RNG will get the better of us. If Shuffle is down and we don't parry/dodge a couple attacks in a row, then we may just literally fall over dead before we can be healed up effectively. Gift of the Ox can potentially save you in that kind of situation, but they aren't all that reliable, particularly if the fight involves any movement at all. We can get high enough avoidance to make that situation highly unlikely with Elusive Brew + Shuffle -- but Elusive Brew is another layer of RNG to add to all the rest.

    So I think once people see how it all comes together, the biggest concern is going to be the "roll of the dice", so to speak. If things go bad for Brewmasters, they go much worse than they would for any other tank, all of which have some sort of buffer to deal with it (e.g., Druids simply take less damage than anyone else when they do get hit even if they rely on avoidance, and Death Knights have a huge arsenal of cooldowns and a health buffer to deal with the fact that they take the second highest damage when things go wrong and rely on self-healing/shielding to make up for it).

  19. #479
    For boot enchant would http://www.wowdb.com/items/74717-enc...-blurred-speed be a alternative to the ones you listed?

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Hijiri View Post
    For boot enchant would http://www.wowdb.com/items/74717-enc...-blurred-speed be a alternative to the ones you listed?
    Yes, yes it would. I'm not sure how I forgot that one... it was part of the list I had found.

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