1. #481
    The problem is more baseline numbers. The idea is that monks take damage "smoothly", but take more overall to compensate. The problem is since the nerfs to energy regen and baseline stagger, monks actually take the most burst damage out of any tank on top of taking the most overall damage. The only way to make up for that is with self-healing and avoidance (both of which are higher than average), but both of those are highly RNG-dependant mechanics
    Stagger is basically effective health; the only RNG is how good you are at purifying. The PB mechanic also lets us decide when we want the most mitigation (pop PB right before you know you'll take a big hit). WOWhead is being slow today but I do believe our passive damage reduction from Ox Stance is significantly larger than other classes'. It seems likely to me that, if you compare the initial spike damage from a staggered hit to the size of a hit a normal tank takes, we actually take smaller hits than the other tanks. That's balanced out by the increased damage overall from the stagger DOT. We do end up taking more damage than other tanks, but we take smaller initial hits. Tanks die from big hits, not from consistent small ticks.

    As for RNG on Elusive Brew - every tank has this to some extent in their active mitigation. Ask Druids about Savage Defense.

    Dodge from Agility stacking+20%parry from Shuffle+5% parry from swift reflexes+30% from Elusive Brew means with our AM up we'll be at around 70-80% (depending on how much Dodge we get from Agility). At that point, it stops being RNG and starts being a pretty good bet. Yeah, we'll still get smashed sometimes, but the chance of multiple hits getting through our avoidance (what actually kills tanks) is pretty low. Even without EB we'll be at around 35% passive avoidance even in crap gear. That's...pretty good.

    So overall, what's the tradeoff for Brewmasters?

    Pros - we still take smaller (initial) hits than the other tanks, and we take fewer of them thanks to high avoidance.
    Cons - we end up taking more overall damage, and our EH/Avoidance are much more dependent on player skill than other tanks.

    Yes, nerfs hurt, but they put us where every other tank is at - you have little or no room to use anything but your active mitigation skills, so you have to make a choice between AM and more DPS.

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmalya View Post
    I tested this lately on beta (currently leveling to 88) and my personal feeling is ww > bm currently.
    It's mostly preference, really. I think straight DPS will always be faster to level, but for folks that like tanking, maybe not as much fun. I leveled my pally as Ret early on, but switched to Prot toward the end, and I was loving the "Come at me, bro" attitude of questing. Tanks in the wild are nigh-unkillable by mobs, and I find that extremely gratifying. I know it's not for everyone, but that's my take.

  3. #483
    It's mostly preference, really. I think straight DPS will always be faster to level, but for folks that like tanking, maybe not as much fun. I leveled my pally as Ret early on, but switched to Prot toward the end, and I was loving the "Come at me, bro" attitude of questing. Tanks in the wild are nigh-unkillable by mobs, and I find that extremely gratifying. I know it's not for everyone, but that's my take.
    I've tried leveling as a tank, and I just get tired trying to collect all the mobs. It was great in the old Vanilla zones where mob spacing could be...iffy...for DPS, but once you get into later zones, the mobs are just so spread out its just easier to go DPS. Especially with all the mobility a WW has, I think that's the way to go for me.

  4. #484
    Alchemy - Provides Agility or Stamina via Mixology, which makes flasks give us extra stats. Because Mixology will provide more armor (via agility), this is our best profession.
    Did you mean, because of mixology elixirs grant more armor? I didn't think monks gain armor from agility. Elixirs with mixology will be really nice in order to get expertise hardcapped, then mix that with the armor elixir. Yum!

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckage827 View Post
    Did you mean, because of mixology elixirs grant more armor? I didn't think monks gain armor from agility. Elixirs with mixology will be really nice in order to get expertise hardcapped, then mix that with the armor elixir. Yum!
    Yes, you are correct. I'm not sure what caused that. Editing now.
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  6. #486
    I'm sure you guys did mention it but I can't remember what page.

    Does the guard from our statue increase the selfheals of that person by 30% and does it absorb magic dmg if guard is glyphed?

    thanks,
    Imbanane

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Felade View Post
    Stagger is basically effective health; the only RNG is how good you are at purifying. The PB mechanic also lets us decide when we want the most mitigation (pop PB right before you know you'll take a big hit). WOWhead is being slow today but I do believe our passive damage reduction from Ox Stance is significantly larger than other classes'. It seems likely to me that, if you compare the initial spike damage from a staggered hit to the size of a hit a normal tank takes, we actually take smaller hits than the other tanks. That's balanced out by the increased damage overall from the stagger DOT. We do end up taking more damage than other tanks, but we take smaller initial hits. Tanks die from big hits, not from consistent small ticks.
    That's the thing - that's not true. It's a very common misconception, since it feels like this is how it should work, and it's how it did work for a long time in beta. But it's not true anymore.

    Brewmasters now take the most spike damage baseline out of any tank. With Shuffle up, they take roughly the same, but still have stagger on top of that after the fact (and PB isn't unlimited, so you WILL have to take some of it).

    The RNG makes up for that on paper - a Monk has roughly the self-healing of a DK and the avoidance of a Druid at the same time. The problem is that RNG is RNG, and without any sort of buffer to make up for a series of RNG failures, monks have the biggest potential for those big hits to be fatal.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by imbanane View Post
    I'm sure you guys did mention it but I can't remember what page.

    Does the guard from our statue increase the selfheals of that person by 30% and does it absorb magic dmg if guard is glyphed?

    thanks,
    Imbanane
    I believe it profits from the glyph, but doesn't increase self-healing.

  9. #489
    Brewmasters now take the most spike damage baseline out of any tank. With Shuffle up, they take roughly the same, but still have stagger on top of that after the fact (and PB isn't unlimited, so you WILL have to take some of it).
    They take more damage, yes, because PB won't get all of the damage. Overall, our actual SPIKE physical damage will be the same or slightly less (because our Mastery reduces that initial spike directly, not buffing our AM like other specs). You'll still take the stagger DOT, and thus will take more damage than other tanks, but the SPIKE will be about the same, and high avoidance means fewer spikes. Stagger != spike.

    PB is interesting because it actually lets us decide when we want to take the damage. We can *choose* to take less stagger damage during a dangerous moment in the fight by aggressively clearing stagger. We will make up for that by not having Chi during the less dangerous phase to clear stagger as much, but a less dangerous phase we will be able to afford a bit more stagger.

    Stagger is also going to make Druids and possibly Disc Priests look really good on the healing meters :P

    The RNG makes up for that on paper - a Monk has roughly the self-healing of a DK and the avoidance of a Druid at the same time. The problem is that RNG is RNG, and without any sort of buffer to make up for a series of RNG failures, monks have the biggest potential for those big hits to be fatal.
    When you're sitting at 70-80% avoidance with EB up, you just aren't going to get an avoidance streak that often...that's the lesson of Sunwell and Icecrown radiance.
    Last edited by Felade; 2012-09-20 at 01:46 PM.

  10. #490
    Listened to a couple of minutes of your podcasts - the guide still shows Stagger as 70/30 split. And the glyph section incomplete save for the link to listen to audio. You've less than a week to make the guide top notch otherwise people are going to go elsewhere.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Well, everything's in, at the very least. Stat information has been updated, though I am waiting till the weekend to tackle the abilities and glyphs sections, which, unless there are any big changes, should mean that this guide will be up to date and ready for the launch on September 25th!
    I'm well aware. Once again, if you would like to post something constructive, feel free to do so. Otherwise, keep it away from the thread
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2012-09-20 at 03:24 PM.
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  12. #492
    I would be interested how you guys control your incoming stagger damage?

    Do you use an addon to show the stagger dmg separately or any other tool to help you purifying at the right moment or are you orienting yourself more on the boss animations/hits

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by imbanane View Post
    I would be interested how you guys control your incoming stagger damage?

    Do you use an addon to show the stagger dmg separately or any other tool to help you purifying at the right moment or are you orienting yourself more on the boss animations/hits
    PowerAuras/WeakAuras and knowing the boss mechanics. If you know when a big hit will land then you can PB prior to that hit.

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckage827 View Post
    PowerAuras/WeakAuras and knowing the boss mechanics. If you know when a big hit will land then you can PB prior to that hit.
    Im also using Weakauras. So you configure it to show up if you reach yellow stagger?

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by imbanane View Post
    Im also using Weakauras. So you configure it to show up if you reach yellow stagger?
    Never really used the addon myself but I assume you can copy the one you have for (I assume) green stagger and replace the spell id for yellow stagger.

  16. #496
    Light Stagger, Medium Stagger, and Heavy Stagger all have different spell ids. What I did was set up some flashing runes for each of the levels, green/yellow/red, that trigger on their respective stagger level. Easy to know how heavy it is, but not exactly how much stagger you have built up.

    Forgot to mention, I did it using weakauras.

  17. #497
    I am Murloc! Gallahadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckage827 View Post
    PowerAuras/WeakAuras and knowing the boss mechanics. If you know when a big hit will land then you can PB prior to that hit.
    Am I being a total tard... or would it not be better to wait and purify AFTER the big hit comes, so you can get rid of the stagger from the big hit as well?
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  18. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallahadd View Post
    Am I being a total tard... or would it not be better to wait and purify AFTER the big hit comes, so you can get rid of the stagger from the big hit as well?
    Would likely depend on your current level of Stagger prior to said big hit.

  19. #499
    Couple Questions:

    1 - Does PB has some sort of DR? What is the consequence of using PB for every stagger?
    2 - Can we safely say that BS/Alchemy are our best professions so start with, just from the insane armor boost?

    3 - When I look at the spreadsheet I have and Crit and Haste are priorities. How does gemming work for all this? Since we can't gem haste/crit are we gemming crit/stam and haste/stam? or just pure haste and pure crit?

    4 - For EH fights I assume we should be gemming and forging for mastery?
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  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by towelliee View Post
    Couple Questions:

    1 - Does PB has some sort of DR? What is the consequence of using PB for every stagger?
    2 - Can we safely say that BS/Alchemy are our best professions so start with, just from the insane armor boost?

    3 - When I look at the spreadsheet I have and Crit and Haste are priorities. How does gemming work for all this? Since we can't gem haste/crit are we gemming crit/stam and haste/stam? or just pure haste and pure crit?

    4 - For EH fights I assume we should be gemming and forging for mastery?
    1: PB does not have any DR, as it isn't a stat. The consequence of using it for every time you stagger damage, or even every time you bring up Shuffle, is that you will starve yourself of chi to use on other parts of our active mitigation and in particular, miss out on Shuffle uptime (which brings along with it 20% parry, that's not something to sneeze at).

    2 & 3: The information's all in the guide (see the first page of this thread, section 3.3 for information on gemming, section 11 for professions)

    4: No, actually. Mastery really does not provide that much use to us in comparison to haste and crit.
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