1. #1621
    Quote Originally Posted by Trendy-Ideology View Post
    Well WW stuff on Noxic supposedly says there's a 5% dps increase from DW...

    But besides that

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...panda/advanced

    I don't know how, or why, but I've definitely had EB stacks fall off due to lack of white-hit for 30s. Well, I do know how or why... sometimes ridiculous RNG, sometimes it's because of a tank swap or mechanics force me to move or not be able to melee for a bit... but DW would certainly clean that up a bit with the more frequent white hit crits.

    Either that or they should buff the 2H EB stack duration to 90s, since we get stacksx3 for crits with 2H.


    Also I really need to figure out a way to glyph roll as tank and not kill the raid for tank swapping fights... having to throttle DPS with an undergeared OT is brutal sometimes.
    Easy enough to throttle your threat by making a macro that drops vengeance. I let the other tank taunt, hit my macro and go back to work.

    And just go with DWing unless you are in a 10 man and share fist weapons with two other people. Then just go with a 2 hander till you get them.
    Last edited by Wreckage827; 2012-12-23 at 08:15 PM.

  2. #1622
    Hi guys,

    All these things are great and all, mathematics and theory are good for sure (as a software architect, I use my own). I'm following threads like this or EJ to see what are the last "fashions" according to my own experiment and my own work out (was a Warrior MT fighting for Top 5 TPS / DPS meters "against" Xavastraz (old times ...) from Premonition since Ragnaros till the middle WotlK, then came back as a Monk for MoP).

    What I can see is mostly many controversed threads, with sometimes opinions, sometimes science. It seems many things are working for a Brewmaster if played well and that's what is for we love this new class . The last example is a thread from EJ which promotes opposite things this one does.

    Basically the same and again hard expertise vs soft, spam guard or not at all, wait for vengeance to proc at least one ...
    All those things are also from some mathematics.

    For example, in my own spreadsheet, I use the concept of "Wasted time" (which is a professional LEAN inheritance I guess ) as far as Elusive Brew is concerned. According to weapon speed, haste rating, crit rating, agility rating inputs, number of stacks I'd like, I work out the wasted time (i.e : time to build X stacks - X sec = no EB) and the theorical % uptime (which does not change with duration / number of desired stacks of EB). When I'm parsing my results, I see a minor reduction to wasted time with 320 crit rating (just comes first compare to haste for a few millis). When you have enough Haste to get 100% uptime with shuffle (and with the duration stacking now, it's now that hard - values have already been worked out in this great thread), it is for sure the way to go even if you won't see the real difference until lot of rating, be honest. With my gear, I need 20k rating adding to be at 0 time wasted with 9 stacks (considering spamming EB)).

    What I'd like to say : time has past, and it teached me (in my job and also with WoW before) a thing. Logic and experiments worth more than pure mathematics. Mathematics should only be support, not a decisive tool. Experiment is. Designing an Information System has to do a little with maths, a lot with experiments. Your choices will not include "ho shit situation" if thay lay only upon mathematics. That is the paradigm of "Optimistic" VS "Pesimistic". Ask what an architect prefers ? Using "risk analysis" and experiment, you'll want "Pesimistic" approach. For the rest, optimistic approach. That is the same for every thing in your life, including playing a Tank in WoW ! That is a response to those many "well, the probability to happen is low". Never work with proba when you are considering ho shit situation, as great as all your mathematics (verified) are.

    The new 960 mastery rating = 1% is pretty welcome.

  3. #1623
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nahalya View Post
    What I can see is mostly many controversed threads, with sometimes opinions, sometimes science. It seems many things are working for a Brewmaster if played well and that's what is for we love this new class . The last example is a thread from EJ which promotes opposite things this one does.
    I checked that EJ thread. I stopped reading when he said hit/exp effects EB and using it on cd is bad. IMO the discussions on EJ just aren't what they used to be.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-12-23 at 10:44 PM.

  4. #1624
    Quote Originally Posted by Trendy-Ideology View Post
    Also I really need to figure out a way to glyph roll as tank and not kill the raid for tank swapping fights... having to throttle DPS with an undergeared OT is brutal sometimes.
    I usually just spend my chi on chi wave until either my veng dropped or the other tank has a big enough lead (and getting aggro with jab is simply impossible). Ofc i could kill my veng instantly but depending on the fight those heals can be quite useful and they suck without veng.

  5. #1625
    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckage827 View Post
    Easy enough to throttle your threat by making a macro that drops vengeance. I let the other tank taunt, hit my macro and go back to work.
    ... see, it seems so obvious, I really should have thought of that before...

    i've been having big threat issues on empress, tsulong, lei shi, H feng which just made me stop even autoattacking.
    i shall go and set up this macro.

  6. #1626
    what do u think about, glyphing "firebreath" for shekzeer. I have a problem with tanking the adds, cause i drop like shit. Anyone has experienced the same?

  7. #1627
    Chances are you have a Paladin in the group, just ask him/her to Hand of Sanc you when the taunt is coming.. problem solved, and you get to dps all out

  8. #1628
    Quote Originally Posted by Screwlee View Post
    what do u think about, glyphing "firebreath" for shekzeer. I have a problem with tanking the adds, cause i drop like shit. Anyone has experienced the same?
    The disorient doesn't work. Tried it myself.

    And yep, tanking those adds hurts. A lot. Prepare for it: pool Chi/energy, have Power Guard up, Guard off CD, etc...

    Then when you grab them, put up Fortifying Brew/Guard/Shuffle and get AoEing. I wouldn't bother with using BoF, instead focusing on keeping Shuffle up with BoK. Once FB runs out, use Leg Sweep to stun them. When that runs out, ask for an AoE stun from a raid member. By this point if your raid DPS is decent enough then there should be at least 1 add dead and another being kited via fixate, so damage should be a lot more manageable.

  9. #1629
    well lets say we have no paladin ....

  10. #1630
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xezar View Post
    I'm normally a WW monk, but agreed to be doing some tanking to hold down the fort until some of members on leave come back. So was thinking of trying out tanking on the monk, and after reading some stuff I haves few of questions:
    For 10m you can basically gear/gem/forge based on the WW spec, that is how I am currently optimized on Askmrrobot. I've used the agil meta and trinkets all the way through 3/6 H MSV so far. Still want to pick up the stam/mastery trinkets but you probably wont need them since you are just standing in for a few weeks.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  11. #1631
    Quote Originally Posted by Screwlee View Post
    well lets say we have no paladin ....
    Kiting works great on them. Very great. Perfectly great. I just kite them after my cd + stun is out so i only have one reaver on me.

  12. #1632
    I throw the kegs an roll around the floor. jump into the group with a cd, ae stun, and roll out. after these 10 seconds, one add is down and the other is chasing one, so i have to tank only 3 now, its easy then.

  13. #1633
    Time everything correctly and its not much damage at all. Most brewmasters hit a wall against certain phases when they know theyll take dmg, and blow all their CD's at once.

    I do the fight, and my DPS taken doesn't exceed 60k, whilst our pala tank takes 120k at his peak. You have 2 insanely powerful cooldowns, dont blow them at once. When you pick up the adds, make sure you have 11-15 EB stacks. As soon as you start tanking them, Elusive Brew, and throw in a Disarm on one of the smaller adds, it increases your defense and reduces their dmg. That coupled EH and GotO orbs and a trigger happy PB, and youll breeze past those 15 seconds. The secret is to spam SCK, you want those GotO orbs, with the insane amount of vengeance, you are your main healer. after you hit a dry spot with no EH and no GotO, pop FB (this usually comes with 3-4 seconds left on EB, on good days, right after EB goes down). When you feel like you are taking a lot of dmg whilst having FB just pop the rest of your EB you've built up again. by that time, even if none of your guildies arent on your mobs, some should be dead due to your HUGE vengeance KS and SCK dmg. After that.. have an ice cream and proceed to afk on Shekzeer again. =D

    We have a lot of control over our damage intake, more so than most tanks, it just takes a lot of know-how and prep to use it properly Nothing's worse than popping EB + FB + Eh + all orbs at the same time, and then having a complete dry spell right after it. Also, due to the nature of the fight, with offtanking shekzeer with Eye stacks and all, your Shuffle should be in the 10s-20s before you hit Retreat, so you have a good amount of excess Chi to spend on PB =D

  14. #1634
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    I'm fairly certain that situation would have to had come from stacks generated on a trash pull, or during a time when you cannot actually melee, because the odds of that happening are ridiculously low.
    Regardless if the odds are low, it still happens. Ask any Brewmaster monk that actually plays at a high level and you will see. I appreciate your comments, theories, math analysis and general contribution on these forums. Many of us do. But you have virtually no in game experience to relate to playing a monk class outside of LFR. You are not seeing the same things that we see on a daily basis where the stacks can, and do get to a point of falling off with a 2hander with some bad RNG streaks. DW minimizes that and allows for higher EB uptime.

    Sig made by Shyama. Click sig for current Warlock armory.

  15. #1635
    Today I got netherrealm shoulderpads (hc version) http://www.wowhead.com/item=87033 and I have shadow heart spaulders (normal) http://www.wowhead.com/item=89836. I got the hc shoulders on bonus roll (no weapon dammit...) so I couldn't pass them to a rogue. I believe that my current ones are better since mastery is a bit meh.

    I also believe that second thing I'm wondering about is out of the question. Currently I have 2 weapons : Gara'kal normal, and Ka'eng and I just got Elegion normal (http://www.wowhead.com/item=86130) for De. I guess that lack of agi disqualifies it as an upgrade from Ka'eng for either tank or dps?

    Link to my armory profile: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...trixe/advanced

  16. #1636
    Considering Elegion has like, no stats that actually help us survive better (beyond stamina I guess), then no, it's not worth using. Also, yes, agi is awesome, so to use an item slot on a strength item is madness.

    As for the shoulders, similar deal: while the extra agi/stam is nice, the expertise and mastery aren't so much. Crit/haste are our best two secondary stats for reducing damage taken, so yeah, keep using the normal shoulders IMO.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-24 at 09:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    Regardless if the odds are low, it still happens. Ask any Brewmaster monk that actually plays at a high level and you will see. I appreciate your comments, theories, math analysis and general contribution on these forums. Many of us do. But you have virtually no in game experience to relate to playing a monk class outside of LFR. You are not seeing the same things that we see on a daily basis where the stacks can, and do get to a point of falling off with a 2hander with some bad RNG streaks. DW minimizes that and allows for higher EB uptime.
    You're technically right, but I've recently switched to a 2 hander from dual wielding (gao'rei), and honestly I'm not seeing much difference in EB stack generation. Definitely not seeing any drop off, at any rate.

    Could be that I just haven't had enough opportunities to see said stacks drop off, but eh. At relatively low crit levels I saw a significant difference between DW and 2H for EB generation, but now that I'm geared? I don't really see much of a difference at all.
    Last edited by Kisho; 2012-12-24 at 10:36 PM.

  17. #1637
    Thanks for the info. Sadly that confirmed what I was thinking :P

  18. #1638
    there are a few places i REALLY notice slow EB generation or it dropping off.

    sha of fear for one. you use it for one thrash, guard the next, and are waiting for EB to use on the third, and it's just not coming. so that's... 20s after using your previous stack? bit more? quite frequently i can go that long with nothing.

    i haven't gemmed etc for crit, but raid buffed i'm at least 30%, probably 35%. this is with a 2h now, but i'm not sure if that's made the difference. perhaps. that said, 3s of EB for thrash is enough if timed well.

    on sha also - i often come back from the platform with 15 stacks up, and hold off using it on sha until the next thrash. or at least until the other tank gets cackled. so even with the ominous cackle return and rolling to the boss, there's still 10s to get a crit in there and it doesn't. and just drops off. so i use it sooner rather than later now.

    i also tend to pool on shek'zeer while waiting for retreat so i can hit it as i pick up adds. it can get pretty close to dropping off sometimes so i'm not at all surprised of people reporting that.

  19. #1639
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alucin View Post
    there are a few places i REALLY notice slow EB generation or it dropping off.

    sha of fear for one. you use it for one thrash, guard the next, and are waiting for EB to use on the third, and it's just not coming. so that's... 20s after using your previous stack? bit more? quite frequently i can go that long with nothing.

    i haven't gemmed etc for crit, but raid buffed i'm at least 30%, probably 35%. this is with a 2h now, but i'm not sure if that's made the difference. perhaps. that said, 3s of EB for thrash is enough if timed well.

    on sha also - i often come back from the platform with 15 stacks up, and hold off using it on sha until the next thrash. or at least until the other tank gets cackled. so even with the ominous cackle return and rolling to the boss, there's still 10s to get a crit in there and it doesn't. and just drops off. so i use it sooner rather than later now.

    i also tend to pool on shek'zeer while waiting for retreat so i can hit it as i pick up adds. it can get pretty close to dropping off sometimes so i'm not at all surprised of people reporting that.
    There is a difference between stacks dropping off and slow accumulation of stacks. Using a 2-hander you're only attacking once every 2.1 seconds or so depending on your haste. Even with a very low raid buffed crit of 25% you should rarely take more than 8 or 9 seconds to generate a crit. DW you should generate the same number of charges over a similar time frame but you you generate them more often, which is beneficial if you are running a low crit build for fights like sha and could at least have 1-2 stacks if you were unlucky vs 0 stacks if you were unlucky with a 2-hander.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-24 at 09:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    Regardless if the odds are low, it still happens. Ask any Brewmaster monk that actually plays at a high level and you will see. I appreciate your comments, theories, math analysis and general contribution on these forums. Many of us do. But you have virtually no in game experience to relate to playing a monk class outside of LFR. You are not seeing the same things that we see on a daily basis where the stacks can, and do get to a point of falling off with a 2hander with some bad RNG streaks. DW minimizes that and allows for higher EB uptime.
    How about you not bring my raiding experience into an argument when you don't like what the math says. 14 non-crits in a row with 25% crit is only going to happen 1.8% of the time, or about once every 27 minutes of straight meleeing. Upping that to 30% crit makes it .68% of the time, or once every 73.5 minutes of straight melee. I'll say again...the chances of stacks falling off due to non-crits with a 2-hander is so small as to the only likely time it would happen is when you can't melee.

    5/16 reg now btw. Would have been 8/16 but we took this week off for the holidays. And that puts us 4th on my server fyi, so how about you stop harking on it.

  20. #1640
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    There is a difference between stacks dropping off and slow accumulation of stacks. Using a 2-hander you're only attacking once every 2.1 seconds or so depending on your haste. Even with a very low raid buffed crit of 25% you should rarely take more than 8 or 9 seconds to generate a crit. DW you should generate the same number of charges over a similar time frame but you you generate them more often, which is beneficial if you are running a low crit build for fights like sha and could at least have 1-2 stacks if you were unlucky vs 0 stacks if you were unlucky with a 2-hander.
    i guess my point is that even though (and perhaps especially because) i know the lowish chances of such things occurring, i'm especially conscious when it does. e.g. i know there's a 3% chance of my keg smash missing (i.e. parried) - but when a parried keg smash meant i couldn't get guard up as expected - well i'm going to remember that occurance.
    it's not something that i'm especially putting down to 2h either. i prefer 2h really, but the 1h are better itemised and mean 2x enchants so i guess i'll end up with that.

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