1. #1641
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    There is a difference between stacks dropping off and slow accumulation of stacks. Using a 2-hander you're only attacking once every 2.1 seconds or so depending on your haste. Even with a very low raid buffed crit of 25% you should rarely take more than 8 or 9 seconds to generate a crit. DW you should generate the same number of charges over a similar time frame but you you generate them more often, which is beneficial if you are running a low crit build for fights like sha and could at least have 1-2 stacks if you were unlucky vs 0 stacks if you were unlucky with a 2-hander.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-24 at 09:41 PM ----------



    How about you not bring my raiding experience into an argument when you don't like what the math says. 14 non-crits in a row with 25% crit is only going to happen 1.8% of the time, or about once every 27 minutes of straight meleeing. Upping that to 30% crit makes it .68% of the time, or once every 73.5 minutes of straight melee. I'll say again...the chances of stacks falling off due to non-crits with a 2-hander is so small as to the only likely time it would happen is when you can't melee.

    5/16 reg now btw. Would have been 8/16 but we took this week off for the holidays. And that puts us 4th on my server fyi, so how about you stop harking on it.
    I bring that in because you have NO experience outside of LFR. Just because there MAY BE math behind something, there is this thing in game called RNG. I am sure you have heard of it. While the chance of it happening are slim, it doesn't necessarily mean it never happens. 2 other people in the last 20 or so posts have already confirmed what I said. It happens where you will not get a crit and your stacks are in danger falling off, or have to use EB at extremely low stacks.

    You can stick to your math all you want, I prefer to stick to actual in game experience and log analyzing to determine that 2h is shit compared to DW when it comes to EB generation and usage. It annoys me that your only argument is that the chance of it happening according to math is low. When you actually get some more experience in raids, you will see firsthand what others are also saying. It happens. It happens more than the math says it should happen. There are several encounters where you want to save up stacks of EB and use them appropriately, and unfortunately with a 2h sometimes it makes it impossible if you get a bad string.

    I am not alone in this, and I think you should consider getting that experience, seeing it firsthand, then coming back and saying "While the math says the chance is low, I have also seen it happen and I apologize" because it will happen.

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  2. #1642
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    I bring that in because you have NO experience outside of LFR.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    5/16 reg now btw. Would have been 8/16 but we took this week off for the holidays. And that puts us 4th on my server fyi, so how about you stop harking on it.
    Nice job actually reading my post. It's not even that difficult to armory me when my toon is in my sig. And for the record I DW, primarily for the dps increase. I'm just showing the math that in terms of EB it doesn't really matter.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-12-25 at 06:02 AM.

  3. #1643
    Again with the math. We are telling you that the math is great and all, but real game experience tells us otherwise. I looked you up. 4/6 MsV, 1/6 HoF. You have barely scratched the surface, and haven't touched the fights where EB is more important than not. Will of the Emp, Garalon, Wind Lord, Empress, Protectors, Sha.

    Again, get to those fights, check your logs, pay attention to EB times using a 2hander, then come back with "math is the ultimate power of the universe" arguments. You will find what we have found. 1h > 2h any day of the week. More DPS, more likelyhood of EB generation, double procs, the list goes on.

    Sorry if I come across as an elitist, just tired of people pointing out math with virtually no real game experience to back it up when the people say it happens have that experience.
    Last edited by gynshon; 2012-12-25 at 06:41 AM.

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  4. #1644
    how does BoK interacts with shuffle and purifying brew? i think im missing something here

  5. #1645
    Quote Originally Posted by bkw View Post
    how does BoK interacts with shuffle and purifying brew? i think im missing something here
    BoK applies shuffle. Shuffle means more damage going into the stagger DoT. Purifying Brew removes the stagger DoT so you don't take too much damage from it. Removing the stagger DoT too much means you will be taking higher damage because you don't have shuffle up. Hence, a balance between the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    Again with the math. We are telling you that the math is great and all, but real game experience tells us otherwise. I looked you up. 4/6 MsV, 1/6 HoF. You have barely scratched the surface, and haven't touched the fights where EB is more important than not. Will of the Emp, Garalon, Wind Lord, Empress, Protectors, Sha.

    Again, get to those fights, check your logs, pay attention to EB times using a 2hander, then come back with "math is the ultimate power of the universe" arguments. You will find what we have found. 1h > 2h any day of the week. More DPS, more likelyhood of EB generation, double procs, the list goes on.

    Sorry if I come across as an elitist, just tired of people pointing out math with virtually no real game experience to back it up when the people say it happens have that experience.
    I'd call it elitist since you're not really giving any proof to your claim other than "You're inexperienced. I have logs (which I'm failing to link). Come back when you've got double the progression you have now." It's rather demeaning speech, quite frankly.

    Really, I'm going to stay out of this one, but if you want to actually debate something, bring proof, not just your word. Nobody should have to believe you just because you killed X amount of heroic bosses this tier. Purely anecdotal evidence has never, nor will ever be good enough to use in an intellectual argument.

    I'm a fairly experienced writer. I can say whatever I want about how character development (as an example) should work but if I don't have anything to back it up I'd understand if people called "bullshit".
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2012-12-25 at 08:28 AM.

  6. #1646
    thats exactly the part i dont get, lets say i have shuffle up for 15 secs, and im going to clean stagger, will my next stagger dot have the "+20% more staggered damage" included?

  7. #1647
    Quote Originally Posted by bkw View Post
    thats exactly the part i dont get, lets say i have shuffle up for 15 secs, and im going to clean stagger, will my next stagger dot have the "+20% more staggered damage" included?
    Yes... It's not like the buff won't be there when you clear the DoT.

    The balance is mainly referring to the resources used to use these abilities. Using too much chi on PB means you will have less for BoK and therefore shuffle.

  8. #1648
    alright, i was doing everything right then. another tricky question, how does the stagger dot phases from low-medium and medium-high? should i clean it when its low even after a spike? (like i used FB or guard to partially negate overload), if i do have a low stagger after this, does it worths the chi?

  9. #1649
    I believe it's based off a percentage of your total health... and no, clearing after a spike is pointless if it's not a fairly high DoT and you're not expecting another spike for a little while. Clearing BEFOREHAND though can be nice, especially if you're under-gearing content, since having a clean a slate as possible prior to high damage is ultimately a good thing.

  10. #1650
    thanks madgod ^^

  11. #1651
    Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all my fellow Brewmasters, enjoy a good drink today!
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  12. #1652
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Gynshon please take note that I am not advocating using a 2-hander, I'm merely providing as full a picture as I can to provide all the pertinent information for people to make their own decision. I believe the points you are bringing up, primarily EB falling off with 2-handers, are so very rare as to be quite odd to gear for something that could very well not happen at all over the course of a month. It would require that you either cannot melee for more than 30 seconds, which would affect DW as well, or are waiting more than 20 seconds beyond the cooldown to use Elusive Brew. Generally using it on cd is the most reasonable thing do to, barring of course times when you are not actively tanking or are saving it for a large predictable hit (thrash). So I don't really see why you are making such a huge deal about this non-issue.

  13. #1653
    Dual wield provides more white attacks more often than a 2h would. While DW is less stats (agi, haste, crit, etc.) than a 2H weapon, having double enchant procs and more often crit chances due to the faster attacks counter acts the benefits of the 2H. This is not saying that 2H is wrong by any way, it currently falls slightly behind DW for EB stack buildup and dps. There isn't any downside to DW tanking like there was in WotLK, as far as I know bosses don't have parry haste anymore. The only real downside is having to compete with rogues/enhance shamans for 1h weapons, and having to get double mats for weapon enchants.

    If you want to use a 2H weapon until you can get two comparable 1h weapons to DW, go for it. Just expect to have a slightly slower ramp-up time on EB stacks compared to DW.

  14. #1654
    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    It happens where you will not get a crit and your stacks are in danger falling off, or have to use EB at extremely low stacks
    Yes, it does, but :
    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    It happens more than the math says it should happen
    No, it doesn't. The "math" one can use to describe EB generation is unquestionably reliable. If you can't work out the formulas, it doesn't mean they're false. The nature of auto attacks makes the formulas very accurate since gameplay isn't involved at all in EB generation. Formulas dealing with the risks of losing stacks are true too.
    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    I prefer to stick to actual in game experience and log analyzing to determine that 2h is shit compared to DW when it comes to EB generation
    This is just an illusion. The math demonstrates without any question from you or anyone that on average 2h generates about 1% more EB stacks than 1H. Only, it generates stacks in a more erratic way, an "all or nothing" way, which induces more risks of losing stacks (a very thin risk though), especially if you stop attacking the boss for a while (which rarely happens). But on average, 2h will win by 1%, even in a /stopattack scenario. Proclaiming the contrary is like proclaiming that the Sun revolves around the Earth because your experience and sky analysis show you that the Sun rises in the East and sets in the West, arguing that astronomers must have missed something.
    Last edited by Morion; 2012-12-26 at 01:51 AM.

  15. #1655
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    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    Dual wield provides more white attacks more often than a 2h would. While DW is less stats (agi, haste, crit, etc.) than a 2H weapon, having double enchant procs and more often crit chances due to the faster attacks counter acts the benefits of the 2H. This is not saying that 2H is wrong by any way, it currently falls slightly behind DW for EB stack buildup and dps. There isn't any downside to DW tanking like there was in WotLK, as far as I know bosses don't have parry haste anymore. The only real downside is having to compete with rogues/enhance shamans for 1h weapons, and having to get double mats for weapon enchants.

    If you want to use a 2H weapon until you can get two comparable 1h weapons to DW, go for it. Just expect to have a slightly slower ramp-up time on EB stacks compared to DW.
    You are skirting a very fine line with your wording there, and I'd just like to clarify. The math says EB generation is almost exactly the same no matter what your weapon(s) is(are). DPS is slightly higher with DW, but only if you take enough hit/exp. There is really no need to pad it out more than those two statements.

    And Morion I'd love to see the math about 2-hander generating 1% more if you have it, b/c as far as I knew they are exactly the same.

  16. #1656
    The Law of Averages is a pain in the ass for every tanking spec, and it is a question every player (playing a tank spec) must ask themselves of. For a lot of people averages work out, because the chances the OH SHIT moments happening are normally low. However that's not how the higher tier of raiding works; you are expected to perform optimally, raid first, individual after. There is a reason progression tanks stack EH, they take more damage, but if it doesn't severely cripple the raid in the aspect of the fight they are currently struggling on, then it is a very welcome improvement. Consistency at its core is a mechanic treasured by raiders because it lets them have full control over their gameplay and gametime (Hence some healers hate crit, MW hate orbs). The math is always going to be concrete, the rules are set into place by Blizzard and reverse engineered by theorycrafters, but numbers will only spell out error-less situations.

    Most people here can do the math, the formulas for each of the calculations are nothing but basic pre-HS algebra, but most people don't care, and the ones who do, take it with a pinch of salt. Math has it's place as a guideline, however, experience will always trump it, especially for Brewmasters, who have so many different ways to play. Gynshen is one of the most experienced raiders actively participating on this forum, his word is his experience, and what I've noticed people here do is that they flock around the idiomatic expressions like hawks and forego the other parts of the argument. "It happens more than the maths says it should happen" ... take it with a pinch of salt; he most probably means, it bites you in the ass when you don't want it to, more than you'd think. That's not the math being wrong, its just our perception of the figure we get; 1 X situation every 27 minutes of combat? That's probably once an hour, and most of the time, it'll be at moments when it won't be an issue, but humans are hard wired to remember the bad things, and even if it happens once or twice a week on a spectacular attempt.. it's gonna stick in your head. People like consistency, as a raider, just as you have the responsibility to the other 9/24 raid members in the group to gem/reforge/enchant properly, you have the responsibility of being consistent.

    Imagine if you were at an insane DPS check boss and you had a fire mage, who could pull out 110k on most attempts, but bad rng streaks once in a while, would drop them to about 90k, and your alternative was to take a spec that could 105k DPS consistently. Some people will take the fire mage due to numbers, higher tier guilds will take the 105k DPS player because time is much more important a factor to them.

    Not trying to be elitist here by saying "higher tier guilds" but this is basically how it works in the top 100, or ever top 200; They are top because they are competing, and in competition time is of the essence, and consistency is the holy grail.

    Magog, your contributions to the math of this class help out a lot of people, but that's where your place is (currently), you are the guide (among others ofc) for people who don't completely know the innards of this spec. Gynshen's experience, or Valsh's experience, they all hold a different kind of weight than the simple guidelines the math you do irons out, it is genuine peer to peer feedback on error-prone gameplay (in other words Raiding, no offense folks).

    Being a Brewmaster above all, comes so much down to player skill rather than how you gear that it makes it so experience talks more than the maths (which is a good thing in retrospect). BrM's have so many on-second decisions to make countless times in the span of a minute that affect their performance, that only once you get completely used to it, and start to fully master it, that the minute details from the maths matters (not talking gearing spreadsheets, more like EB frequencies, haste vs crit, ascension vs Power strikes and blahblah).

    Gynshen isn't being elitist, he is just defending his position in saying that his feedback holds more merit than is given credit for. Have you done Grand Empress Shekzeer as a Brewmaster? P2 hurts like a ***** if you aren't in complete control of your character, and even then it hurts a lot. Know what happens when you go to the HC version of that fight, it becomes borderline homicidal, but most BrM's choose to iron out their GAMEPLAY at that point because the DPS done from them normally outweigh them kiting the entire thing (different for many guilds too, a lot of them kite). There's also Lei Shi.. Did you know we are able to tank that thing for much longer than most tanks, because of the absence of Shuffle; spam KS for CW chi, rest goes into healing spheres and EH, (time guards + DM + ZM) worst comes to shove that's what BrM's need to do on HC (at the end). The math models don't ever advocate using Healing Spheres over.. anything really. One of the best examples.. Elegon heroic, although it's tuned to be quite easy, the mechanics are there for a plethora of clutch abilities to shine, Transcendence usage, KS on sparks at the right moment to AoE hit stuff, taking Ox Wave for the little adds because you are the first one back in tanking Elegon. (Experience from HC's can be used for normals, but not vice versa ([I]most of the time[I]))

    This is what talks, this kind of feedback is what helps other players. The math will only take you so far.. most of which is an exercise in futility since most people just gem/gear their character to their own style (pros of being a BrM), Hit/exp most optimal at 3-4%, almost every BrM reaches for 7.5% on both, the confident ones go for 15%. A very recent example is Ascension, the math says it only surpasses PS in Chi gen at about 9.5k haste, but most people are dropping their haste to the 4-6k's in order to funnel more into crit, does the math say its better? No, but it shows that it is close enough that, player error will be a much bigger factor, and going the crit heavy build is just another "taste" that changes from BrM to BrM.


    Also while we are on the subject, BrM DPS goes a long way, and ironically it is one of the statistics that you'll see a definite change in from gear/ gemming/ enchant/ reforging differences, since keeping on top of the maximum DPS spells is quite easy as a BrM. More DPS has many benefits besides.. DPS; going from more Raid healing, (presumably) stronger selfheals, and in most cases, better character control (agi stacking or crit stacking = more reliable EB). Just my 0.02$, nothing to do with EB, but still moar deepz... can't complain.
    Last edited by Zonex; 2012-12-26 at 05:02 AM.

  17. #1657
    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    Gynshen isn't being elitist, he is just defending his position in saying that his feedback holds more merit than is given credit for.
    As I've said... while experience is nice, it is by NO means proof enough. If Gynshon wants his word to be taken seriously, he has to back it up with facts. Essentially saying "I'm 15/16 H, you're not even done with Normal HoF. 'Nuff said" is in fact NOT enough said. There is absolutely no defense for that in an intellectual argument. His advice is useful, certainly, but if he wants to prove someone wrong, he can't just point at his experience and his anecdotal evidence. He needs to show some contrasting numbers.

  18. #1658
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    The formulas for EB for various speeds/styles of weapon are given below:

    C=crit chance, X=haste in the form 1.XX, T=time frame in seconds, raid melee haste buff is assumed.

    2.6 DW: 3C(T/(2.36/X))
    3.3 2H: 2.75C(T/(2.14/X))
    3.6 2H: 3C(T/2.34/X))

    Let's throw some numbers in here. I'll use some average numbers at 12% haste, 25% crit, and 60 seconds. Your numbers may vary, but the relative differences won't affect these calculations.

    2.6 DW: 21.33
    3.3 2H: 21.60
    3.6 2H: 21.53

    As you can see these are within about 1% of each other, so what Morion said checks out. Also note that since you cannot actually get fractions of an Elusive Brew charge that the 3.6 number is slightly misleading, since it will be 21 83% of the time and 24 17%. The other two are slightly more accurate since they have a 50/50 chance to proc 1/2 and a 25/75 chance to proc 2/3 respectively. These numbers are so close as to be practically insignificant in terms of making a gearing decision based solely on EB generation.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-12-26 at 06:03 AM.

  19. #1659
    He isn't refuting someone else's game experience, he is refuting how people perceive the numbers. This isn't an intellectual argument, standing by a mathematical absolute is not intellectual, it is a constant, it is there, it wont change. The calculations done for the EB frequency will not change unless Blizzard changes the equations and formulas; The clause he makes is actually very broad, it applies to (i think he listed them) about 6 different encounters heavily. It is a qualitative observation based on experience. Now if he was to point you to the logs, (which isn't actually too difficult to look up yourself, you have his armory, and thus his WoL through a quick minute search) you would scurry around trying to quantify a very player specific, encounter-specific, environment-specific variable.

    Taking things with a pinch of salt doesn't only apply to the "maths", it heavily applies to all the experiences and tips being thrown around, as it is subjective in most cases. If you are going to nit-pick at it, you are free to look up his logs for those occurrences, which is by no means fun.. for anyone. Again.. take it with a pinch of salt..

    Being 15/16H and "not being done with HoF" does hold a merit when it comes to talking about experience. I see you've done 4 HCs, you know very well that you learn much more about an encounter when doing it on Heroic than when you do it on normal (even the retained normal mechanics).

    He isn't proving anything wrong, he's not trying to say the math is wrong, because assuming the numbers have been punched in properly, they shouldn't be, he is saying that the conclusion you draw from it is shortsighted. (I'm putting words in his mouth now.. so I'm going to stop) Pointing at his experience, yes to some degree is disrespectful to players who don't have experience, but that's just the way it works; I am much more inclined to take the word of a long time proffessor without any validation than I am to take of an intern.. Experience has value

  20. #1660
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    The formulas for EB for various speeds/styles of weapon are given below:

    C=crit chance, X=haste in the form 1.XX, T=time frame in seconds, raid melee haste buff is assumed.

    2.6 DW: 3C(T/(2.36/X))
    3.3 2H: 2.75C(T/(2.14/X))
    3.6 2H: 3C(T/2.34/X))

    Let's throw some numbers in here. I'll use some average numbers at 12% haste, 25% crit, and 60 seconds. Your numbers may vary, but the relative differences won't affect these calculations.

    2.6 DW: 21.33
    3.3 2H: 21.60
    3.6 2H: 21.53
    I must be missing something, because I didn't get anything like those numbers...

    Code:
    3 * 0.25 ( 60 / ( 2.36 /  0.12))
    0.75 * ( 60 / 0.1966667)
    0.75 * 305.08469
    = 228.81
    The actual formula for elusive brew is simply:

    1H: [1.5*WeaponSpeed/2.6]
    In words:
    If your auto-attacks crit, you get either 1 or 2 stacks of elusive brew, which alternate keeping an average of 1.5, assuming your weapon speed is 2.6.
    2H: [3.0*WeaponSpeed/3.6]
    In words:
    If your auto-attacks crit, you get 3 stacks of elusive brew, assuming your weapon speed is 3.6.
    If your auto-attacks crit, WITH 3.3 WEAPON SPEED you get 3 stacks of elusive brew 3/4 of the time, the other 1/4 is 2 stacks.

    Therefore, the chance of getting an elusive brew proc is the same.
    The exception with this comes to if you want to look at crit and the attack table. Dual wield would require more expertise to get through the higher parry rate (that the second 1h weapon would bring). However, this isn't until you have enough crit to fully overtake your hit chance. (Crit would eat into hit first, then conflict with parry chance).

    Basically, the only difference is that dual wield 1h means that you get a slightly steadier stream.

    ----

    A word on experience...

    Although Gynshon is well-versed in the current heroic content, he has barely touched old content (from what I can see on his armory). Only doing the current heroic raids doesn't count for much to me. - True that monks were only brought into existence this expansion but alas, these types of mechanics have been out for far longer.
    Last edited by Yohassakura; 2012-12-26 at 07:42 AM.
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