1. #1801
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    @promdate

    Thanks for updating those numbers, but I think the whole 'value of a 20 sec proc' that Surreal pointed out really weighs heavily against Bottle. We could try halving the uptime of all procs like he suggested and it might give us a more accurate weight for our purposes.

  2. #1802
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    There's a line, though. How much do you simplify things before the game just becomes boring and predictable, with everyone wearing the same gear, doing the same stuff, all the time?

    An exaggeration, but it's something Blizz need to consider when designing the game. Furthermore, random is 'fun': I mean sure, getting parried is annoying, but it creates tension. It creates 'ohshit' moments. It makes you think and work that little bit harder to get the kill. Knowing that you overcame the odds and still triumphed makes the kill that much sweeter, rather than just 'going through the motions' and doing the same thing over and over, knowing what the exact outcome will be.

    Yeah, it's one of those 'feeling' things. How the game feels, is it fun, is it exciting, etc. It's not about convenience or practicality, it's about keeping the game interesting.

    And as I said before, it's also about meaningful choice. 2550 rating (from 7.5% to 15%) isn't too steep of a demand, but it's enough that it makes you think. It makes you consider whether it's actually worth hard capping or not. Seems like the line has been drawn rather successfully, since you'll hear arguments for and against hard capping on these forums many times. There may be a general consensus on what is better, but there's still people who prefer to do something different.

    Speaking strictly practically, then no, the extra parry requirement doesn't make sense. But from a 'feeling' viewpoint? Makes the game that little bit more interesting.
    Well ok. I dont want a dull game ofc not.
    But its not like expertise is a fun stat to begin with. And even without expertise we have Haste, Crit and Mastery to play around with. Which all have their own values and caps for people to go for and "feel comfortable" with.

    And well i never talked to another tank class that even consider going beyond 7.5.

    I just feel parry infront in PvE is just an very old relic. From times with parryhaste and were a melee infront could easy mean a higher chance of instadead tank.
    And it punishes you for bad encounter design.

  3. #1803
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    @promdate

    Thanks for updating those numbers, but I think the whole 'value of a 20 sec proc' that Surreal pointed out really weighs heavily against Bottle. We could try halving the uptime of all procs like he suggested and it might give us a more accurate weight for our purposes.
    If you place no value on an agility proc when not tanking, you should also place no value on static agility while not tanking. It doesn't make sense to halve the proc but not halve the static value if you look at it that way.

    Static effects are still typically better because they bring consistency. You might sometimes have 100% uptime on the proc during your tanking window, but you might also miss it completely and have 0% uptime with the proc wasted when your offtank is tanking. A static effect will always help you, and you usually die when you are weakest, not when you are strongest.

  4. #1804
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paraalso View Post
    If you place no value on an agility proc when not tanking, you should also place no value on static agility while not tanking. It doesn't make sense to halve the proc but not halve the static value if you look at it that way.

    Static effects are still typically better because they bring consistency. You might sometimes have 100% uptime on the proc during your tanking window, but you might also miss it completely and have 0% uptime with the proc wasted when your offtank is tanking. A static effect will always help you, and you usually die when you are weakest, not when you are strongest.
    It wasn't just from the fact that it will often proc when you aren't tanking, but from the fact that when it does proc and you are tanking...you are only going to get 1% extra dodge and maybe 1 extra EB stack over those 20 seconds. The math for Terror I did way back showed that even almost 7k crit rating will only give you 1 extra EB charge each time it procs. So the value of Terror's proc is a slight dps increase and maybe 1 extra statue guard and 1 more second of EB every 110 seconds. The procs for Bottle and Xuen are similar. That is why I was saying they aren't all that useful for us.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-10 at 08:27 AM ----------

    Update: (can someone confirm these numbers in game? I cannot get on right now)

    952 agility gives 1% dodge
    1261 agility gives 1% crit
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2013-01-10 at 01:29 PM.

  5. #1805
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    We could try halving the uptime of all procs like he suggested
    While i agree that Agi procs are less useful since you waste the dodge part when you're not taking, crit/haste procs are always useful, since they always help you build stacks of EB or duration of Shuffle.
    1261 agility gives 1% crit
    Well, i've got 1259 tested with several Agi values.

  6. #1806
    I am Murloc! Gallahadd's Avatar
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    Well the Set Bonuses are out for T15....

    and I've been proven resoundingly wrong with my pattern of "first tier is wasted stats, but good set bonuses. Second teir is good stats but bad bonuses"

    I'm looking at that 2pc and thinking "Yeah, that's a good bonus, more stagger is always a good thing, the problem is... wont that mean we have to Purify alot more?"... Then I look at the 4pc

    although I still say that 4pc should be rolled into our Mastery...
    Reading the A song of Ice and Fire series is like playing with an adorable puppy, then someone comes up out of nowhere and shoots the puppy, then punches you in the face

  7. #1807
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morion View Post
    While i agree that Agi procs are less useful since you waste the dodge part when you're not taking, crit/haste procs are always useful, since they always help you build stacks of EB or duration of Shuffle.
    This is the important part of the math I referenced last post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    The 483 version that you have 1021 Agility and 6121 crit for 20 seconds on proc. The 1021 agility gives you 1.3% crit and .73% dodge. The 6121 crit gives you 10.2% crit. Using a 2-hander (and it doesn't matter if you are DW b/c the charges of EB will be almost exactly the same RNG permitting) you will have about 9 white attacks in that 20 second time frame. That gives you an estimated 'extra' crit of .918 and an estimated EB charge value of 2.75 per proc. So I'm dubious of your 'string of crits.'

    Terror has a 15% chance to proc and a 105 sec ICD. The crit you gain from the static agility will give you the same amount of charges of EB as the proc will after about 140 seconds or so, which given the ICD and the proc chance is almost spot on to it.

    TLDR: The static agility on Terror gives almost the exact same EB charges as the crit proc does.
    I was using the LFR version in that comparison, but the normal and heroic version would provide similar numbers as you're just dealing with such small time frames.

    For clarification, I remembered the numbers slightly wrong, so it's not just 1 sec of extra EB every 110 from the proc alone, it's more like 2.75 for the LFR, and likely around 3 and 3.25 for the normal and heroic version respectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morion View Post
    Well, i've got 1259 tested with several Agi values.
    Thanks that was pretty close to my napkin math. It will help me with some of the other math I'm likely to have to do here soon.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2013-01-10 at 02:51 PM.

  8. #1808
    Pandaren Monk Hinalover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Thanks that was pretty close to my napkin math. It will help me with some of the other math I'm likely to have to do here soon.
    If you want to be technical, it's 1259.518066406250000 Agi = 1% crit.

    Line to SimC's code showing where that value comes from:

    https://code.google.com/p/simulation..._data.inc#1106

    If you need values for a few other things; such as Dodge/Parry DR; let me know.
    Last edited by Hinalover; 2013-01-10 at 04:51 PM.

  9. #1809
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paraalso View Post
    If you place no value on an agility proc when not tanking, you should also place no value on static agility while not tanking. It doesn't make sense to halve the proc but not halve the static value if you look at it that way.
    The value is placed on static agility because it's static... meaning you know 100% that you will be benefiting from the dodge/crit/dps 100% of the time you are tanking. Yes haste/crit proc's still have benefit when you aren't tanking the boss but they are largely wasted because;
    - Haste: Most tanks are capping out at the rating they are comfy with, extra haste just results in extra DPS and a unneeded boost in Chi generation.
    - Crit: I almost always cap 15 stacks of EB during tank swaps, the extra crit is just widely wasted and as mentioned above only results in like 1 stack while actively tanking.
    - Mastery: Probably has the most benefit of a proc while actively tanking and flip side is worthless while off tanking.

    Agil with X proc provides the best baseline mitigation which healers prefer tanks build themselves around instead of RNG mitigation (which widely is wasted or not needed half the time with most trinkets).

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  10. #1810
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    The value is placed on static agility because it's static... meaning you know 100% that you will be benefiting from the dodge/crit/dps 100% of the time you are tanking. Yes haste/crit proc's still have benefit when you aren't tanking the boss but they are largely wasted because;
    - Haste: Most tanks are capping out at the rating they are comfy with, extra haste just results in extra DPS and a unneeded boost in Chi generation.
    - Crit: I almost always cap 15 stacks of EB during tank swaps, the extra crit is just widely wasted and as mentioned above only results in like 1 stack while actively tanking.
    - Mastery: Probably has the most benefit of a proc while actively tanking and flip side is worthless while off tanking.

    Agil with X proc provides the best baseline mitigation which healers prefer tanks build themselves around instead of RNG mitigation (which widely is wasted or not needed half the time with most trinkets).
    You were halving the value of a proc trinket (such as your example of 20% for Bottle) based on it's tanking uptime compared to total fight uptime, but counting the value of static agility for both tanking times and non tanking times. That is the issue, and it has nothing to do with what you said above, and nothing to do with whether any particular proc trinket is worth using.

    When calculating value either ignore both procs and static effects for non tanking times, or include both for non tanking times. Just to make it more clear:

    50% of the fight you are tanking
    * Bottle 40% uptime on average
    * Static agility 100% uptime

    50% of the fight you are not tanking
    Bottle 40% uptime on average
    * Static agility 100% uptime

    The values marked with a star are what you are including in the value calculation.

  11. #1811
    Even when you're not actively tanking, you are still doing damage and causing your statue to make shields for the raid.



  12. #1812
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paraalso View Post
    When calculating value either ignore both procs and static effects for non tanking times, or include both for non tanking times. Just to make it more clear:
    Yes I understand what your saying but my whole point is I'm looking at the snips of the fight where you are actually tanking the boss. Our job is to tank the boss and not die and not drain our healers of mana, no matter how you want to look at it Bottle is still only providing you agil for 20% of this time.

    What happens while I'm not taking isn't nearly important to me as while I am, so my gear/stat decisions are based almost completely around what provides the most benefit while tanking (this is of course ignoring the few single tank fights).

    That being said, with the +25% mastery bonus and the announce T15 2P/4P bonus an unforged H Bottle could end up looking pretty good going into next tier.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  13. #1813
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    Yes I understand what your saying but my whole point is I'm looking at the snips of the fight where you are actually tanking the boss. Our job is to tank the boss and not die and not drain our healers of mana, no matter how you want to look at it Bottle is still only providing you agil for 20% of this time.
    Yes, but the static agility is also only providing you agility for 50% of the time if you want to look at it that way. Because as you said, you don't care about what it's providing for you when you are not tanking.

    So you can either say that:

    Proc is providing agility 20% of the time, static agility providing agility 50% of the time

    or

    Proc is providing agility 40% of the time, static agility providing agility 100% of the time.

    You cannot say that proc is worth 20% and static is worth 100%.

  14. #1814
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paraalso View Post
    Yes, but the static agility is also only providing you agility for 50% of the time if you want to look at it that way. Because as you said, you don't care about what it's providing for you when you are not tanking.
    You are still missing what I'm trying to convey I guess.
    1) Static agility: During all periods of tanking this will be active on you. Up time is 100% in any length of time you look at during the fight.
    2) Agility proc: Fight uptime is ~40% on average from my experience over the course of the fight. Since only 50% of that fight involved tanking the boss you have to assume that 20% of the proc was while tanking and 20% was during off tank periods.

    I'm not saying proc's have no value but if you are asking yourself what provides the most useful mitigation benefit you have to factor in that trinket uptimes occur both when you are and are not tanking. So the only gaurenteed benefit is the static stats.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  15. #1815
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    You are still missing what I'm trying to convey I guess.
    1) Static agility: During all periods of tanking this will be active on you. Up time is 100% in any length of time you look at during the fight.
    2) Agility proc: Fight uptime is ~40% on average from my experience over the course of the fight. Since only 50% of that fight involved tanking the boss you have to assume that 20% of the proc was while tanking and 20% was during off tank periods.
    I am not the one who is not understanding here. You keep calculating the uptime of the useful proc based on total fight length but say that you only care about stats in the 50% of the fight you are tanking! That makes no sense whatsoever.

    Lets say you have a 360 second fight and you are tanking 180 seconds. Let's completely ignore the parts of the fight you are not tanking, since you are saying that those stats don't matter.

    During those 180 seconds
    Static agility is up 180 seconds
    Agility proc is up for 72 seconds on average or 40% of the time you are tanking

    On top of this you are including the full value of the agility from other parts of the fight, but no value from the proc.

  16. #1816
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    My point is that that 20 second buff doesn't give you all that much b/c of the small time window. It's not just averaging...you are taking 2nd and 3rd order products of that block of agility.

    3236 agility on regular bottle will give you 2.6% crit and 3.4% dodge for 20 seconds. The AP gain is moot b/c the majority of our AP is coming from vengeance. 2.6% crit over 20 seconds will get you about .74 extra charges of EB. Not .74 more crits just .74 more charges. the 3.4% dodge will let you dodge about .45 of an attack on a average boss over 20 seconds.

    This is why procs are shit for BrM. 20 seconds is too short of a time frame for any meaningful increase to our mitigation.

  17. #1817
    Proc agility will still work out to have a value akin to passive agility over an entire fight, the only real difference is whether or not you may be tanking with the proc on cooldown but it takes so much agility to gain any tangible benefits(crit/dodge) that I'd just take whatever gave me the most agility in total and that's bottle everytime.

  18. #1818
    Still thinking of the weapons. Currently I have a 1h fist weapons. I looked at wowprogress.com - the best gear monk - Brewmaster and most of them are just staff.

    If you know that 1h weapons support rapid charging CHI.

    Or am I wrong?

    I rather focus on staff?

    Or is it basically the same?

    thanks

  19. #1819
    Several potential reasons:

    1. They haven't had 2x drops of Claws of Shek'zeer heroic (or 1x heroic Gara'kal and 1x Claw), but they have seen the Tsulong staff drop
    2. They don't want to spend VP on 2 weapons when they could just spend it on 1 weapon and get a bigger upgrade, and more VP to spend on the rest of their gear
    3. They prefer the higher agility/stamina that a 2 hander provides over dual wielding

    Also dual wielding doesn't do anything to boost Chi income. The only benefits that dual wielding provides are higher DPS and more smooth EB stacks. For this tier specifically, the 1 handers are better itemised than the 2 handers (crit/exp and haste/mastery, or exp/mastery and haste/mastery) so that's why you'd prefer dual wielding there. But who knows how the new items will be itemised in ToT?

  20. #1820
    Since we are talking about weapons which would be better: normal tsulong staff (with 500 agi gem and 320 crit gem) or heroic spirit kings staff? (both fully upgraded). I have tsulong staff and I'm wondering if I should use coin for spirit kings. Thanks

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