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  1. #21
    I've refreshed my Brewmaster guide with latest info from the patch (was working on it when it dropped, now I get to go back and fix the other two, yay).

    Short version:

    In order to use your survivability abilities, you need Chi, and you need energy to generate Chi. Since the three primary energy-consuming moves cost 40 energy, your chi generation be a roughly 8 second cycle centered around KS and Jab/Expel Harm. Without taking talents into account, you’ll have 3 Chi to use every 8 seconds (with Power Strikes, 3.5ish).

    For survivability, you’ll want to prioritize:

    1. Elusive Brew, Guard, and Dampen Harm (if available) All else being equal, you’ll want to rotate through these. Good to follow Guard with an immediate Healing Sphere.
    2. Blackout Kick to generate Staggers.
    3. Purifying Brew to mitigate Stagger damage.
    4. Healing Sphere yourself. Currently spammable, which is probably not intended.
    5. Tiger Palm to boost the strength of Guard. (5% buff is a bit weak.)

    Your oh #!$% button is Fortifying Brew or Avert Harm (but be careful with AH, that’s more of a see damage coming button). Meditation is also a possibility depending on enemy kitability/tauntability, as is playing around with Leer of the Ox. For AoE, Dizzying Haze/Breath of Fire.

    Erp, just realized I need to check if you can still buff yourself with statue clicks, forgot to check that tonight.
    Visit World of Monkcraft, my monk blog, for guides and discussion. Currently a WIP.
    Visit The Fluid Druid, my druid blog, for all your druid needs. Mostly covers Feral currently, but will cover all specs for Mists.

  2. #22
    Whether you can self buff would be very useful for me, as well as the effectiveness of mastery, seeing as how my own monk is still very low right now.
    ~ The Moderator Previously Known as The Madgod ~
    ~ My Youtube Channel ~ The Lore Corner Podcast ~ My Roleplaying Characters ~

  3. #23
    @ Alarondruid

    1) Tiger Palm adds 5% stacking 3 times to 15%. I think that's a pretty hefty boost, and have tested it in dungeons @ level 87. I'm absorbing 150k~ with a 300k health pool.

    2) I don't understand what you mean by healing sphere being spammable. The only change they made is that it's instant cast, so the energy cost (60) is still there making it easy to get 2 off quickly with a full energy pool.

    Fortifying brew was a lot of fun in instances today. I was hitting 700k+ HP ontop of a 150k guard absorb optop of 50k absorb from our statue.

    My question is this... Say I put up the statue absorb first, then the guard absorb second, will the guard absorb be effective by incoming damage first? If that's the case (or if any combination of absorbs protects the statue absorb), that makes the 34% additional healing from the statue absorb incredibly powerful.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Byronyk View Post
    @ Alarondruid

    1) Tiger Palm adds 5% stacking 3 times to 15%. I think that's a pretty hefty boost, and have tested it in dungeons @ level 87. I'm absorbing 150k~ with a 300k health pool.

    2) I don't understand what you mean by healing sphere being spammable. The only change they made is that it's instant cast, so the energy cost (60) is still there making it easy to get 2 off quickly with a full energy pool.

    Fortifying brew was a lot of fun in instances today. I was hitting 700k+ HP ontop of a 150k guard absorb optop of 50k absorb from our statue.

    My question is this... Say I put up the statue absorb first, then the guard absorb second, will the guard absorb be effective by incoming damage first? If that's the case (or if any combination of absorbs protects the statue absorb), that makes the 34% additional healing from the statue absorb incredibly powerful.
    1) My point was that I'd much much rather spend 2 Chi on BOK and the 3 attack Stagger than on boosting a 30s CD's effectiveness by 10%. Obviously, if you have enough Chi that you can get 100% Stagger uptime, then TP becomes more attractive.

    2) When I tested it after the patch last night, HS had no cost at all, so you could just spam heal yourself. They may have hotfixed that.

    3) Can't really say, but a good question to footnote somewhere.
    Visit World of Monkcraft, my monk blog, for guides and discussion. Currently a WIP.
    Visit The Fluid Druid, my druid blog, for all your druid needs. Mostly covers Feral currently, but will cover all specs for Mists.

  5. #25
    when i first ran TotJS on my pre-made I felt WAY too squishy, & it felt fiddly, after some advice from a user on this board, & the patches since, I tried again...

    I really like it as it stands. the toggle on/off for Dizzying Haze, coupled with the lack of stacks, plus the effect added to Keg Smash. & the tiger palm x 3 & guard effect, plus I got more comfortable with it. yeah, its really good!

    2 things I would like them to address:

    1) Parry, theres no point to having it now, as it gives no benefit that I could see.

    2) Energy Regen was a little too low for my liking.

    what I'd like, & I did put this on the forum, was that parry could increase energy regen rates by x% for y. given gear & whatnot, & assuming agility will grant dodge like Bears meaning it'll be lower than dodge inherently it could work. & solve both problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    [12:07:45] <+Radux> i think Bibi should post a super passive agressive message in there. like "OH NO LOVE FOR BIBI. I SEE HOW IT IS. YOU'RE WELCOME FOR CREATING THE SITE. CARRY ON."

    OH NO LOVE FOR BIBI. I SEE HOW IT IS. YOU'RE WELCOME FOR CREATING THE SITE. CARRY ON.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Girouette View Post
    when i first ran TotJS on my pre-made I felt WAY too squishy, & it felt fiddly, after some advice from a user on this board, & the patches since, I tried again...

    I really like it as it stands. the toggle on/off for Dizzying Haze, coupled with the lack of stacks, plus the effect added to Keg Smash. & the tiger palm x 3 & guard effect, plus I got more comfortable with it. yeah, its really good!

    2 things I would like them to address:

    1) Parry, theres no point to having it now, as it gives no benefit that I could see.

    2) Energy Regen was a little too low for my liking.

    what I'd like, & I did put this on the forum, was that parry could increase energy regen rates by x% for y. given gear & whatnot, & assuming agility will grant dodge like Bears meaning it'll be lower than dodge inherently it could work. & solve both problems.
    I do have to agree that since we don't really get much parry it's rather useless aside from reforging to balance out dodge's DR. And I also have to agree that energy regen was low. I think it happened in the patch before this one, it got nerfed a bit, which was sad because I liked where it was at before.

    And I think that your solution could possibly work, I haven't really thought of it in that way. I was just thinking bump up energy regen again. Saves a lot of trouble in terms of coding.
    ~ The Moderator Previously Known as The Madgod ~
    ~ My Youtube Channel ~ The Lore Corner Podcast ~ My Roleplaying Characters ~

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    I do have to agree that since we don't really get much parry it's rather useless aside from reforging to balance out dodge's DR. And I also have to agree that energy regen was low. I think it happened in the patch before this one, it got nerfed a bit, which was sad because I liked where it was at before.

    And I think that your solution could possibly work, I haven't really thought of it in that way. I was just thinking bump up energy regen again. Saves a lot of trouble in terms of coding.
    I'd agree with that sentiment. If I was to predict how they'll balance our energy I'd have gone with either a bump in regen, or possibly an addition to the spec skill adding parrying granting 5 energy as well as dodge.

    interesting to see how they balance it.
    Last edited by Girouette; 2012-04-28 at 09:51 PM. Reason: Wording.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    [12:07:45] <+Radux> i think Bibi should post a super passive agressive message in there. like "OH NO LOVE FOR BIBI. I SEE HOW IT IS. YOU'RE WELCOME FOR CREATING THE SITE. CARRY ON."

    OH NO LOVE FOR BIBI. I SEE HOW IT IS. YOU'RE WELCOME FOR CREATING THE SITE. CARRY ON.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Girouette View Post
    I'd agree with that sentiment. If I was to predict how they'll balance our energy I'd have gone with either a bump in regen, or possibly an addition to the spec skill adding parrying granting 5 energy as well as dodge.

    interesting to see how they balance it.
    The parry / dodge (/ stagger) model would potentially be nice. I mean either way as long as we get the regen I'm fine with whatever method they give us. As long as, you know, it's an effective, non-convoluded method :P
    ~ The Moderator Previously Known as The Madgod ~
    ~ My Youtube Channel ~ The Lore Corner Podcast ~ My Roleplaying Characters ~

  9. #29
    I just thought of an idea: how about instead of just giving us a flat armor boost, we make it so we stagger every attack ( fixing numbers where needed ), and are balanced around managing stagger ticks, and guard. We could also make purifying brew a 30-45sec CD, and have Elusive brew be on the same CD as PB, so we could make a decision is the stagger DoT is too high, and we need to clear it, or do we want to dodge. To make Tiger Palm, and Black out Kick more fun we could make them both benefit Guard in some fashion for example: Tiger Palm above 50% ( your own health, not target's ), increases the absorb potential of Guard, while using Black out Kick below your own health increases the self-healing benefits. To keep Guard from being too OP we could also change it into a %DR bubble, for example: You build up a 50k bubble, and you take a 25k from enemy, you absorb X% of it and take Y% dmg, leaving Z% of the shield left. That would also be unique instead of just calling Guard our version of Blood Shield.

  10. #30
    just ran Stormstout Brewery, last boss is still bugged & gives no loot, but hey ho...

    The changes are actually pretty good, despite me dying because of a clueless pre-made paladin healer on EVERY. SINGLE. BOSS.

    Energy regen is pretty fluid, the parry changes work, & blackout kick now increasing parry chance via Brewmaster Training is pretty cool, I run with Zen Sphere for a little self-healing too though it doesn't seem to be enhanced by guard from what I can tell.

    The bad news is, stagger is 30% baseline, the extra 20% from Blackout kick via Brewmaster Training, which means you feel a tad squishier early in the fight, but once you're rolling its not a big deal. 2 things I noted: the Ox statue still stacks guard on top of your own, thought that was gonna get culled somehow, & the new icon for stagger damage is MUCH more useful, its colour-coded, green for light, yellow for moderate, & red of Heavy. at-a-glance its much better to tell if its ticking hard or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    [12:07:45] <+Radux> i think Bibi should post a super passive agressive message in there. like "OH NO LOVE FOR BIBI. I SEE HOW IT IS. YOU'RE WELCOME FOR CREATING THE SITE. CARRY ON."

    OH NO LOVE FOR BIBI. I SEE HOW IT IS. YOU'RE WELCOME FOR CREATING THE SITE. CARRY ON.

  11. #31
    Whew, you've really been working on keeping this up to date! I wondered whether I could refer to this guide after all the recent changes so I came to take a look ^^ Thanks for all your work, sane-ish mad one.

    -Vegepan, Vegebear, etc

  12. #32
    First of all, thanks for updating this guide (I was literally halfway through with mine, but got caught up with work so you saved me the trouble and even came out better than mine would have lol)

    Only thing I can suggest for now is the stat priority although it may be a bit off (again, been away from the computer for a while) but what I use is Agi > Parry > Dodge > Mastery (which is still weak even after the change imo) > Stam

    other stats after that would be Hit/Exp (but I don't really worry too much about it) > Haste > Crit

    The only reason I value Haste over Crit is the posibility that it may help with energy regen like other energy classes (not confirmed and I haven't seen much info on it, but better safe than sorry right?)

    let me know how it looks (send me a private msg if you want and I'll do what I can to help you keep this guide up and running)

    EDIT: Also worth mentioning is the Passive Ability: Gift of the Ox which seems to proc a lot, esp on AoE during SCK... have not tested proc rates between DW and 2h weps, but so far as DW (which is not fail for monks like it has been for DKs for a while now) they proc all over the place even on single target fights... also noteworthy: they don't cap at 3 like the casted version

    EDIT2: So far while DWing (white hits only) I am getting about 7-8 orbs per minute and while using a staff I also got about 7-8 orbs per minute.... however these were just quick tests (2 min fights on a dummy with only white hits) and while DWing gave me the same average of orbs per minute, the staff test gave me 12 orbs the first minute and only 4 the next minute, but total orbs procced were about the same... will do longer and more accurate tests later though to remove the seemingly random procs.
    Last edited by Cracka_Bob; 2012-05-05 at 09:44 AM.
    Oh yes, there is a method to my madness O.o
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    We generally consider 0 / 0 / 71 builds to be a failure.
    ^win

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracka_Bob View Post
    First of all, thanks for updating this guide (I was literally halfway through with mine, but got caught up with work so you saved me the trouble and even came out better than mine would have lol)

    Only thing I can suggest for now is the stat priority although it may be a bit off (again, been away from the computer for a while) but what I use is Agi > Parry > Dodge > Mastery (which is still weak even after the change imo) > Stam

    other stats after that would be Hit/Exp (but I don't really worry too much about it) > Haste > Crit

    The only reason I value Haste over Crit is the posibility that it may help with energy regen like other energy classes (not confirmed and I haven't seen much info on it, but better safe than sorry right?)

    let me know how it looks (send me a private msg if you want and I'll do what I can to help you keep this guide up and running)

    EDIT: Also worth mentioning is the Passive Ability: Gift of the Ox which seems to proc a lot, esp on AoE during SCK... have not tested proc rates between DW and 2h weps, but so far as DW (which is not fail for monks like it has been for DKs for a while now) they proc all over the place even on single target fights... also noteworthy: they don't cap at 3 like the casted version

    EDIT2: So far while DWing (white hits only) I am getting about 7-8 orbs per minute and while using a staff I also got about 7-8 orbs per minute.... however these were just quick tests (2 min fights on a dummy with only white hits) and while DWing gave me the same average of orbs per minute, the staff test gave me 12 orbs the first minute and only 4 the next minute, but total orbs procced were about the same... will do longer and more accurate tests later though to remove the seemingly random procs.
    Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad that my guide's helped out other Brewmasters.

    I've yet to add in stats mainly because I haven't had the opportunity yet to do a big test of damage intake, and without recount it is especially difficult. However, I think that mastery is stronger than you give it credit. As well, hit and expertise will be more important for us so that our attack abilities that provide mitigation and such will be more guaranteed to hit. Adding the effect of Recoil onto that, and I think hit in particular will be a very important stat for us, though not as much as defensive stats.

    I will also be editing in Gift of the Ox and the latest patch notes sometime this weekend. Haven't had much time as of late, mainly because I'm building a new computer, which is taking up a bit of time. I don't think that its supposed to have a difference between the two weapon styles. There are other things though that make staves and dual wielding different, though.
    ~ The Moderator Previously Known as The Madgod ~
    ~ My Youtube Channel ~ The Lore Corner Podcast ~ My Roleplaying Characters ~

  14. #34
    I personally don't feel a need for hit/exp (I just take whatever is on gear and reforge according to stat prio.)... I might reforge for it here and there if I miss too much, but in general I still feel like I can do my job without it. Of course, things may change later in the game so we'll see how it plays out.

    As for mastery, I definitely see potential in it (and it is certainly better than the previous mastery), but right now it scales poorly. I mean, we get 1% (parry and shuffle) per 2 points of mastery... in higher gear levels, it could pull ahead but right now in current gear it seems weak compared to straight dodge/parry, although I agree more testing needs to be done

    EDIT: As far as weapon choice is concerned, I like the feel of DW especially after taking into account that I can have 2 wep enchants vs just one (right now I have Windwalkx2 and yes, they can both proc at the same time, and they DO stack)
    Last edited by Cracka_Bob; 2012-05-05 at 11:01 PM.
    Oh yes, there is a method to my madness O.o
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    We generally consider 0 / 0 / 71 builds to be a failure.
    ^win

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracka_Bob View Post
    I personally don't feel a need for hit/exp (I just take whatever is on gear and reforge according to stat prio.)... I might reforge for it here and there if I miss too much, but in general I still feel like I can do my job without it. Of course, things may change later in the game so we'll see how it plays out.

    As for mastery, I definitely see potential in it (and it is certainly better than the previous mastery), but right now it scales poorly. I mean, we get 1% (parry and shuffle) per 2 points of mastery... in higher gear levels, it could pull ahead but right now in current gear it seems weak compared to straight dodge/parry, although I agree more testing needs to be done

    EDIT: As far as weapon choice is concerned, I like the feel of DW especially after taking into account that I can have 2 wep enchants vs just one (right now I have Windwalkx2 and yes, they can both proc at the same time, and they DO stack)
    Blizzard has said that they want hit and expertise to play a bigger factor in tanking, so it will probably be needed to a certain extent.

    And yes, mastery is definitely scaling a bit poorly at the moment, but it is still a major factor, since it is doing a good bit to deal with our largest damage intake, the initial hit.

    In terms of weapon enchants, they are PPM if sources are correct, which means that they proc twice as much with two handers, so it really evens out. And right now, staves provide better stats, so they're ahead. Though there is something to be said about expertise racials. I'd still feel more comfortable with a two hander, if only for nostalgia purposes.
    ~ The Moderator Previously Known as The Madgod ~
    ~ My Youtube Channel ~ The Lore Corner Podcast ~ My Roleplaying Characters ~

  16. #36
    tested enchant procs just now.... 5 min test with DW and 2h:

    DW - 10 procs from Windwalk in 5 mins
    2h - only 4 procs in 5 mins

    During the DW test the enchants stacked 1 time (meaning it procced from one wep and then again from the other shortly after) but occaisionally would refresh the buff (meaning it procced from one wep and then again from the same shortly after)... counted the refresh as another proc since that is essentially what happened... Also as stated before, the dodge does stack, but the movement speed does not

    During the 2h test, it only refreshed the buff once before expiring (counted this as another proc; see DW)... the other 2 procs did not refresh and I also didnt get my first proc until about 1:05 into the test

    What does this mean? If anything it means that at best this particular enchant is 1PPM for each weapon that it is applied to
    Last edited by Cracka_Bob; 2012-05-06 at 02:54 AM.
    Oh yes, there is a method to my madness O.o
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    We generally consider 0 / 0 / 71 builds to be a failure.
    ^win

  17. #37
    I'll leave these here for you to consider. If your tests are true, then there's probably a bug at the moment.

    http://www.wowpedia.org/PPM

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorgl View Post
    I'm not 100% sure but I think you're wrong with "PPM or not". The thing is, with PPM, you'll have Uptime(proc on a 2H) = 2 x Uptime(proc on 1H) basically. This would be slightly untrue if on the 1H you'd use the same enchant but here, that's not the case. And as there will certainly be an proc more suited to us, you'll end up loosing survivability using having both.
    I see the appeal, but I'm pretty sure it's a misconception.

    So my point is : 2H have better stats and not less enchant uptime, with one that is more optimal for us (whichever it is between Colossus or Flowing River).


    Edit : By the way, aren't we also overlooking the Windsong enchant http://www.wowdb.com/items/74723 ? If it proc on the higher stat it's worth comparing it to the other. Of course, if it's a random one it's useless. (And if they want it to be DPS exclusive, they might make it random.)
    ~ The Moderator Previously Known as The Madgod ~
    ~ My Youtube Channel ~ The Lore Corner Podcast ~ My Roleplaying Characters ~

  18. #38
    http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t21822-proc_mechanics/
    http://wow.allakhazam.com/wiki/PPM_%28WoW%29

    the proc rate is still approx. 1 per minute whether it is a 1.0 wep or a 4.0 wep (extreme speeds, but the point remains). It is possible to see more than 1 proc in a single minute (as in my tests) especially in cases where there is no ICD (as with this enchant), but the average stays the same. The reason I had double the procs when DWing is simple: 2 wep enchants each with their own separate proc rate (hence the one case of stacking). I did not specify which weapon procced which buff (as the only way I know how is through addons which are disabled atm) so I simply added the procs together.

    I shall say it again... the proc rate for this enchant is approx. 1 PPM per weapon

    However, I still agree with what you said earlier. 2h weps have better total stats than 2 1h weps (not including enchants) but after enchants are included, this gap becomes a little closer (at least with the windwalk enchant). I can't say that they are equal, and a lot of people don't like to rely on procs, but so far it seems that both DW and 2h are just as viable at this point in the beta. We will have to wait until we have more tools to confirm all of this though.

    P.S. my intention is not to argue, only to provide some information to keep this guide as updated and accurate as possible, keep up the good work
    Oh yes, there is a method to my madness O.o
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    We generally consider 0 / 0 / 71 builds to be a failure.
    ^win

  19. #39
    Argument in the form of debate is a good thing! Keep's one's mind sharp. However, it seems like we're both looking at this from two different perspectives. Procs and Uptime are two separate things. I don't think that dual wield is supposed to have a bigger uptime than 2h. The elitist jerks page somewhat hints at this, discussing proc overlap.

    And don't forget about Recoil. With that focusing on white hits and the energy created halved while dual wielding, it seems like dual wielding will produce less energy than going with a staff or polearm.
    ~ The Moderator Previously Known as The Madgod ~
    ~ My Youtube Channel ~ The Lore Corner Podcast ~ My Roleplaying Characters ~

  20. #40
    on a single 1h vs 2h you would be correct that the 2h would have a bigger uptime.... but we are talking about DW with 2 of the same enchant which stack thus increasing the uptime of the 2 1hs. Proc overlap (aka refreshing the buff) does in fact reduce uptime since we cut off the last x seconds of the buff to refresh it, but we have 2 weps and therefore 2 enchants each with their own uptime.

    *sigh* once addons are enabled I will download a proc/uptime addon just to check this once and for all >.< lol

    As far as Recoil is concerned, I think you hit more often with 2 1hs vs 1 2h... even after the monk ability (the name escapes me atm) that increases attack speed with 2h even under hit cap... but I will have to run more tests I'll be back soon with the results

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-06 at 07:32 AM ----------

    ok 5 min test with just white hits (and hit/exp/haste/crit listed) as a lvl 87 Pandaran

    DW:
    hit% - 5.38% (952 rating)
    exp% - 0.53% (93 rating)
    haste% - 4.44% (981 rating)
    crit% - 11.61% (1,084 rating)

    white damage - 193 hits, 25 crits (865.8k damage done)
    Tiger Strikes - 62 hits, 8 crits (284.0k damage done)
    Total - 255 hits, 33 crits (288 total melee hits) 1,149.8k total damage done

    2h:
    hit% - 5.38% (952 rating)
    exp% - 0.53% (93 rating)
    haste% - 45.55% (876 rating + Way of the Monk)
    crit% - 11.76% (1,097 rating)

    white damage - 117 hits, 22 crits (882.1k damage done)
    Tiger Strikes - 61 hits, 10 crits ( 426.7k damage done)
    Total - 178 hits, 32 crits (210 total melee hits) 1,308.8k total damage done


    Also added damage done to settle the damage argument. As you can see, a 2h will do about 200k more damage (approx 667 dps if my math is correct), however the total amount of white hits is greater while DWing. I won't bother with Recoil just yet for a variety of reasons. It varies on weapon speed, type of weapon (1h or 2h) and I haven't seen any info on whether or not it procs from Tiger Strikes (which is counted as white damage). Hope the info I provided helps!

    P.S. I know some of you will be wondering after reading this... addons CAN be enabled through the use of a patched Beta.... a lot of them don't work, but this test was done with Skada (Recount didn't work for me). Go to Google and search for "mop addon beta patch". USE AT YOUR OWN RISK Shhhhhhh O.o
    Last edited by Cracka_Bob; 2012-05-06 at 02:05 PM.
    Oh yes, there is a method to my madness O.o
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    We generally consider 0 / 0 / 71 builds to be a failure.
    ^win

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