1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    So the question then becomes how many more stacks will you get per minute using, say, a 3.3 speed staff like Gao-Rei with 9% haste in comparison to base haste levels.

    So lets see here, if I'm right, the general formula should be...

    60 / (<base speed of weapon> * (1-(% haste/100) ) ) * (% crit / 100) * # stacks per proc = stacks of EB per minute



    It's not necessarily how easy it is to get it, it's how useful that extra energy per second is relative to the defensive abilities of other stats.
    I think what we need to figure out is at what point does haste start to drop off in terms of mitigation or what is the best area our EPS should be at. If we can figure out a generally safe area for our EPS/Haste then we can work around it to determine what we need in terms of Crit/Dodge/Parry.

    We know right know we should be hardcapping expertise/capping hit to gain the most optimal rotation. UNLESS they decide this week to remove the ability to parry our blackout kick and kegsmash.
    Last edited by Wreckage827; 2012-09-16 at 12:03 AM.

  2. #442
    I'm aware of the changes in stat weights due to their being different ways to tank on the monk and the amount it can change. I don't think most looking at this guide will bother to work out their own stat weights based on their playstyle etc but regardless...

    You was saying about backing this up, i've been following the discussion on Tankspot and have talked to people discussing it about the issue, here is the thread http://elitistjerks.com/f99/t129790-...iscussion/p14/

    There is also a handy spreadsheet in it that will calculate your own stat weight and everything else pretty much, i assume you could link it at the stat prio section as long as the guy who made it is fine with it (i'm sure he is)

    Thought i'd comment before i go to bed

  3. #443
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    So the question then becomes how many more stacks will you get per minute using, say, a 3.3 speed staff like Gao-Rei with 9% haste in comparison to base haste levels.

    So lets see here, if I'm right, the general formula should be...

    60 / (<base speed of weapon> * (1-(% haste/100) ) ) * (% crit / 100) * # stacks per proc = stacks of EB per minute



    It's not necessarily how easy it is to get it, it's how useful that extra energy per second is relative to the defensive abilities of other stats.
    I think it probably pertains more to the affect that haste does not have diminishing returns whereas parry and dodge do. Expanding the short list I gave early shows this:

    340 Hit Rating = 1% Hit
    340 Expertise Rating = 1% Expertise
    600 Crit Rating = 1% Crit
    425 Haste Rating = 1% Haste
    600 Mastery Rating = 1 Mastery
    885 Parry Rating = 1% Parry (before diminishing returns)
    885 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge (before diminishing returns)

    So it takes alot more parry/dodge to get 1% even before we have to start worrying about diminishing returns.

    1% Haste will give us CritChance number of crit swings every 100 of our swings, and then assuming a 2H multiply that times 3 for elusive brew, so boiled down crit*3 per 100 stacks of elusive brew per 1% haste.

    1% parry/dodge will gives us 1 avoided attack every 100 boss attacks.

    Then don't quite line up nice and even for eyeballing which is better, but I think this helps show why haste is beating out raw avoidance stats.

  4. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    That's all well and good, but I'm looking for haste RATING, not percent. We know how much haste percent it will take to get 1 extra chi per minute, but in order to translate that into terms of how good it is relative to other stats, we need to see the raw haste rating.
    We'll have a pretty high crit chance as an agility based class even without crit rating on our gear. I'll assume 20% base crit (though it'll probably be higher), 3.6 weapon speed, 40% attack speed buff, 10% attack speed buff and 5% crit buff. 9% haste is 6.37% crit at lvl 90 ratings.

    With 9% haste : 25% crit chance, 2.1446 attack speed, 27,98 attacks per minute = 27,98 * 0,25 = 6,994 crits per minute
    With 6.375% crit :31.375% crit chance, 2.33766 attack speed, 25,67 attacks per minute = 25,67 * 0,31375 = 8,05 crits per minute
    Crit gearing gains ~1 crit per minute

    * Crit gearing : You gain 1+ crit per minute, or a bit over 3 seconds of elusive brew, as well as increased healing from GotO/Expel Harm. Critical heals tend to be fairly unreliable and often overheal though, so I wouldn't count that too much in crits favor.
    * Haste gearing : You gain 4.5 second of shuffle or 1½ purifying brews, and increased GotO and enchant procs.


    On paper haste wins hands down, right? 3.1 seconds of EB vs 4.5 seconds of shuffle and more procs. Shuffle is a stronger buff than elusive brew (20% stagger + 20% avoidance vs 30% avoidance), so should it be clear? Well, not quite.

    We have shuffle up most of the time, while EB is rarely up. Going from 50% avoidance to 80% avoidance is extremely powerful, which makes elusive brew a very strong cooldown against melee damage. On the other hand we are very weak when shuffle isn't up, so even a modest increase in chi generation is a very powerful thing in making incoming damage smoother.

    TLDR Crit gearing lets you become super strong more often, but not reliably. Haste gearing makes you super weak less often. It'll depend on the situation which is better.

    Getting more haste will also make crit look better because it increases the number of EB charges you get from 1% crit, and you have less chi gaps to fill. Getting more crit will make haste look better as well, as it increase the number of EB charges gained from 1% haste.

  5. #445
    496-516 Raid Table
    If there was a Heroic item listed I didn't bother posting it's normal version. (Example Tier armor)

    Last edited by Hijiri; 2012-09-16 at 01:11 AM.

  6. #446
    Another thing to consider with haste is the fight type.

    If we are tanking against a boss that always hits hard, then haste is very valuable. 1 EPS (1 blackout kick in 80 seconds) in a 5 minute fight translates to 22.5 seconds of not shitting our pants because the boss could kill us any moment. That is not minor at all.

    Against a boss that does random burst, haste is still very attractive. Since we can't predict the burst, having a big spike come when shuffle is down is devastating.

    If we're tanking a boss 50% of the time, then haste is less attractive. We can stack shuffle while offtanking, and so there's less shuffle gaps for haste to fill. We'll have a much higher uptime on our defensive abilities when tanking half the fight even without haste focus.

    If the boss does predictable burst, then haste is less attractive. We'd already have shuffle and other things up for those burst situations. In that case haste would be helping more with the situations where the boss isn't bursting.

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by paraalso View Post
    TLDR Crit gearing lets you become super strong more often, but not reliably. Haste gearing makes you super weak less often. It'll depend on the situation which is better.

    Getting more haste will also make crit look better because it increases the number of EB charges you get from 1% crit, and you have less chi gaps to fill. Getting more crit will make haste look better as well, as it increase the number of EB charges gained from 1% haste.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Then don't quite line up nice and even for eyeballing which is better, but I think this helps show why haste is beating out raw avoidance stats.
    Mmh, certainly.

    Well, once I get back to me good computer I'll have to sit down for a spell and do some editing. What both of you are saying is definitely making sense, and my own bit of napkin math is conforming to what you're saying.

    Only thing to think about is whether or not my system of different gemming / reforging / enchanting for the three basic types of fights will still work or not... haste and crit are definitely tops compared to the others, but at least in terms of avoidance v mastery... I'd imagine it'd still be up to the type of fight for which is necessarily better.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-15 at 09:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by paraalso View Post
    If we're tanking a boss 50% of the time, then haste is less attractive. We can stack shuffle while offtanking, and so there's less shuffle gaps for haste to fill. We'll have a much higher uptime on our defensive abilities when tanking half the fight even without haste focus.

    If the boss does predictable burst, then haste is less attractive. We'd already have shuffle and other things up for those burst situations. In that case haste would be helping more with the situations where the boss isn't bursting.
    Of course, if haste will provide more damage reduction than dodge, parry, or mastery, then it will still be better, even during those times when we are taking less damage due to predictable burst, and when we aren't taking any physical damage at all due to not being the primary tank, if there's still damage that we need to minimize, haste provides the energy and chi for more self heals and the like.

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Of course, if haste will provide more damage reduction than dodge, parry, or mastery, then it will still be better, even during those times when we are taking less damage due to predictable burst, and when we aren't taking any physical damage at all due to not being the primary tank, if there's still damage that we need to minimize, haste provides the energy and chi for more self heals and the like.
    We can store a large amount of EB charges, but we can't store an infinite amount of chi. Assuming tank swaps aren't too far apart, we get 100% of the crit benefit stored even when not tanking the boss. We won't get 100% of the haste benefit stored, because chi can't be stored (beyond 4) and shuffle is always running down.

    In a fight where the boss is hitting us 50% of the time, we may have a very high uptime on shuffle even without heavy haste focus thanks to stacking it when offtanking. So increased haste will not have as big of an impact as if we are tanking 100% of the time. When the boss does heavy predictable burst rarely, we'll have 100% shuffle uptime during burst whether we have 0 haste or lot of haste. The less haste tank mostly has to sacrifice mitigation during the non-burst times. Haste can still be very good though.

    I generally see focusing on hit, expertise, haste and crit roughly in that order as our best bet. I don't see dodge or parry as valuable as any of those four stats, which is a little funny considering they are the actual tanking stats. Stamina and agility are very good too, but you only have to choose between secondary and primary stats with gems and trinkets. For trinkets we'll probably want to focus on agility and stamina, as 1 agility/1.5 stamina is still better than 1 of any secondary stat. Going for secondary stat gems is viable due to the double budget.
    Last edited by paraalso; 2012-09-16 at 01:34 AM.

  9. #449
    Hey guys,

    first of all, thanks for the guide and the theorycrafting. Very helpfull !

    Concerning the discussion about crit vs. haste i just wanted to add a idea. I am not a big theorycrafter but i think you assume a fix amount of PB uses per minute? If this is the case wouldnt a higher crit chance lower this amount, since with EB up we are at ~80% avoidance which means there is normally not much to purify.

    On Beta i am completely gemmed and reforged on crit (with exp and hit cap) and during EB times i can stack a lot of shuffle because i have nothing to purify --> all chi to shuffle. Wouldnt this shift the theory a bit?

    May be you have mentioned this already and i have overread it. If not i think this is a thing to consider.

    Cheers,
    Imbanane

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by paraalso View Post
    We can store a large amount of EB charges, but we can't store an infinite amount of chi. Assuming tank swaps aren't too far apart, we get 100% of the crit benefit stored even when not tanking the boss. We won't get 100% of the haste benefit stored, because chi can't be stored (beyond 4) and shuffle is always running down.

    In a fight where the boss is hitting us 50% of the time, we may have a very high uptime on shuffle even without heavy haste focus thanks to stacking it when offtanking. So increased haste will not have as big of an impact as if we are tanking 100% of the time. When the boss does heavy predictable burst rarely, we'll have 100% shuffle uptime during burst whether we have 0 haste or lot of haste. The less haste tank mostly has to sacrifice mitigation during the non-burst times. Haste can still be very good though.

    I generally see focusing on hit, expertise, haste and crit roughly in that order as our best bet. I don't see dodge or parry as valuable as any of those four stats, which is a little funny considering they are the actual tanking stats. Stamina and agility are very good too, but you only have to choose between secondary and primary stats with gems and trinkets. For trinkets we'll probably want to focus on agility and stamina, as 1 agility/1.5 stamina is still better than 1 of any secondary stat. Going for secondary stat gems is viable due to the double budget.
    This made me laugh, the fact that dps trinkets are pretty much going to be better on the average fight than most tanking trinkets are...

    Terror in the Mists is looking to be a very good trinket for us if i'm not mistaken... even if your reforging into haste the sheer amount of crit it has means it out weights any other haste trinket out there.

    I'm not too sure about stamina and mastery trinkets.. mastery doesn't seem to be that great compared to other stats and well stamina.. I can see it having some benefit on some hard hitting magic fights or on a move like impale where you need a big health pool to survive it but other than that I don't really see myself using stamina trinkets, or maybe one stamina and a 'dps' trinket.. thoughts?

  11. #451

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurhlag View Post
    This made me laugh, the fact that dps trinkets are pretty much going to be better on the average fight than most tanking trinkets are...

    Terror in the Mists is looking to be a very good trinket for us if i'm not mistaken... even if your reforging into haste the sheer amount of crit it has means it out weights any other haste trinket out there.

    I'm not too sure about stamina and mastery trinkets.. mastery doesn't seem to be that great compared to other stats and well stamina.. I can see it having some benefit on some hard hitting magic fights or on a move like impale where you need a big health pool to survive it but other than that I don't really see myself using stamina trinkets, or maybe one stamina and a 'dps' trinket.. thoughts?
    I don't see why I wouldn't want to pick up that agility trinket. Agility provides us with:

    Crit (Elusive brew, and the statue bubbles)
    Dodge (No explanation necessary)
    Attack power (which affects our guard, gift of the ox, expel harm, and our raid wide bubbles our statue gives).
    On top of that you get a sweet Crit proc for more chances at elusive brew.

    Although, I don't know that this trinket is better than the new darkmoon card in terms of agility. http://mop.wowhead.com/item=79328
    Last edited by Wreckage827; 2012-09-16 at 06:28 PM.

  13. #453
    Erm i said it would be one of the best trinkets to have

    Personally i'd pref that over a stam trinket
    Last edited by Nurhlag; 2012-09-16 at 06:50 PM.

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurhlag View Post
    Erm i said it would be one of the best trinkets to have

    Personally i'd pref that over a stam trinket
    I know, I was agreeing with you and explaining why to those who may view this thread.

    We essentially pick up DPS agility trinkets like Bears did throughout Cata. I don't mind it, but the difficulty comes when having to share the AGI trinkets with DPS in the raid.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Wreckage827 View Post
    I know, I was agreeing with you and explaining why to those who may view this thread.

    We essentially pick up DPS agility trinkets like Bears did throughout Cata. I don't mind it, but the difficulty comes when having to share the AGI trinkets with DPS in the raid.
    Oh sorry got you mixed up Yeah im pretty sure it'll be BiS atleast for some fights

  16. #456
    Hello.
    I was wondering if any of you guys tested brewmaster vs. windwalker lvling speed (questing 81-90).
    Is brewmaster even close to being viable powelvling specc?

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadi View Post
    Hello.
    I was wondering if any of you guys tested brewmaster vs. windwalker lvling speed (questing 81-90).
    Is brewmaster even close to being viable powelvling specc?
    There's been threads on the subject, but from my experience, it's fine to level as a tanking spec. The ability to hold more mobs and still kill them allows for arguably faster grinding, and you have instant queues for dungeons when you want to level via those (or do the quests for each at least once).

  18. #458
    Mechagnome MisterSoup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by imbanane View Post
    Hey guys,

    first of all, thanks for the guide and the theorycrafting. Very helpfull !

    Concerning the discussion about crit vs. haste i just wanted to add a idea. I am not a big theorycrafter but i think you assume a fix amount of PB uses per minute? If this is the case wouldnt a higher crit chance lower this amount, since with EB up we are at ~80% avoidance which means there is normally not much to purify.

    On Beta i am completely gemmed and reforged on crit (with exp and hit cap) and during EB times i can stack a lot of shuffle because i have nothing to purify --> all chi to shuffle. Wouldnt this shift the theory a bit?

    May be you have mentioned this already and i have overread it. If not i think this is a thing to consider.

    Cheers,
    Imbanane
    I've been running dungeons on my Brewmaster with various setups in gear to test this out - each dungeon with the same group of people to prevent player variances from messing with numbers.

    From what I can tell so far, it seems like it all comes down to weapon choice for me.

    If I use a polearm/staff weapon, then I tend to favor crit rating to see critical hits more often.
    When I dual-wield, I've been favoring haste rating just because I already see my critical strikes much more often with two weapons.

    I've actually been favoring dual-wielding lately for several reasons. Further testing will have to be done to make any finite choices though
    Last edited by MisterSoup; 2012-09-17 at 04:56 PM.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    There's been threads on the subject, but from my experience, it's fine to level as a tanking spec. The ability to hold more mobs and still kill them allows for arguably faster grinding, and you have instant queues for dungeons when you want to level via those (or do the quests for each at least once).
    I tested this lately on beta (currently leveling to 88) and my personal feeling is ww > bm currently. Personaly i have the feeling that ww is a bit faster. I tried bm in both stances but outside of ox stance you lose nice abilities.
    And since BoF was nerfed way back downing groups isnt thaaat much faster. And Flying serpent kick > clash.
    For me at least.
    Dem Rising Sun Kick crits rips holes into mobs.

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmalya View Post
    I tested this lately on beta (currently leveling to 88) and my personal feeling is ww > bm currently. Personaly i have the feeling that ww is a bit faster. I tried bm in both stances but outside of ox stance you lose nice abilities.
    And since BoF was nerfed way back downing groups isnt thaaat much faster. And Flying serpent kick > clash.
    For me at least.
    Dem Rising Sun Kick crits rips holes into mobs.
    100% agree after the bremaster energy nerf

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