1. #1441
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    I must admit I do like that about Monks. I've never really felt in any other class that there was any level of 'personal preference' involved: it was all, 'read this guide! Do it this way! ANY OTHER WAY IS FAAAAAAIIIIILLLLLLL'; with Monks, it's 'well this way works, but so does this, just get what you feel comfortable with really'.

    I mean yeah, there's some things that just don't work at all, but the leeway we're given to make our own decisions is rather refreshing I find. Not sure if this is a general MoP thing or a Monk only thing.

    As clarification, I'm referring to stuff like hit/exp caps (getting an amount that works for you), and the PS/Asc debate, where both are good for different reasons and it's up to you to decide which works for you.

    And that's my 'yay I love my class' message for the week!
    IMO it's a monk thing.


    And I share your joy at it.

  2. #1442
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    On that note now that the DPS in my guild are getting geared up I'm noticing some threat issues at the start of fights that wasn't there before, which usually happens because of missed/parried keg smashes. Kind of frustrating.
    I've found a bit the opposite myself with the tank swaps mostly, without a lead on vengeance I seem to be able to strip threat away easy during the first few swaps even letting him go first. Does the /walk + roll trick work where you don't move from your place? I was thinking of trying it glyph'd sadly...

    Still going with 7.5% expertise, had tried 15% and it felt weird and a waste of 2500 Crit/Haste and going less and missing more than I am would piss me off.

    Made the mistake of leaving Ascension selected for when I tried out WW yesterday in HoF and had Chi/Energy coming out my big panda butt at ~6200 haste =P Have to switch down to Power Strikes if I'm not going to gear away any more haste as BrM.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  3. #1443
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    I've found a bit the opposite myself with the tank swaps mostly, without a lead on vengeance I seem to be able to strip threat away easy during the first few swaps even letting him go first. Does the /walk + roll trick work where you don't move from your place? I was thinking of trying it glyph'd sadly...
    I've had pally's in LFR complain that Keg Smash is a taunt. Empress the other day I had to even stop auto-attacking or I'd pull off the poor guy.

  4. #1444
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    I've found a bit the opposite myself with the tank swaps mostly, without a lead on vengeance I seem to be able to strip threat away easy during the first few swaps even letting him go first. Does the /walk + roll trick work where you don't move from your place? I was thinking of trying it glyph'd sadly...
    Just tested it and it doesn't appear to work anymore. Alas.

    And oh yeah, on tank swaps I'm still having to hold back a ton, haha. Just on the pull... I think the issue was that I needed to move the boss to a specific location to tank in straight away, and while moving at range we only really have Dizzying Haze which can be tricky to aim. Whereas warriors can heroic throw, Paladins Avenger's Shield, and DKs Icy Touch. A fair bit more reliable I think.

    It's a very minor thing and honestly, tanks need to have their pros and cons. So I'm not too bothered by this. Just a little frustrating sometimes, haha! I've made a post on my guild's forums to inform my guildies of this unfortunate deficiency of mine, so it shouldn't be an issue any longer I hope. :P

  5. #1445
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    Just tested it and it doesn't appear to work anymore. Alas.
    Bleh figured they would knock out the bug that actually was useful right away =P

    Which bosses does this seem to be an issue on? I can see Amber Shaper being a PITA if your doing the pull and initial positioning due to his stupid initial LOS starting spot but not sure what else?

    I usually let our DK pull he can have the initial vengeance while I sit on my panda butt building shuffle and sipping my beer, last night during Tsulong my very last GCD apparently pulled threat right as I had turned to roll into the Sunbeam and clear my stacks resulting in the raid and I being bathed in shadowy death breath =P I've been finding Omen to be really unreliable after 5.1

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  6. #1446
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    yh also having a tough time spending my energy in the start if the fight without getting the aggro, letting our other tank start so I can build some shuffle but theres no way I can even use keg smash within the first 15 sec

    Basicly just jabbing untill i'm full on chi and then slowly spending it keeping a close eye on my name bumping up on that threat meter :P

    Aw well

  7. #1447
    Quote Originally Posted by Morion View Post
    This is false, you gain the buff Power Strikes every 20 sec even if you don't use Jab. The icd on Power Strikes begins when you get the buff, not when you consume it, so you can delay your Jab, as long as you use it at least once in the 20 sec window (and you will), you'll still get the maximum benefit from Power Strikes. A time frame could look like
    So if you keep a timer that tells you exactly when you will get PS, you could have a boss opening of PS + PS if you time the first jab within 1-2 seconds of getting the buff? for example:

    19s: You jab an get extra Chi.
    20s: You get PS.
    21s: You jab and get extra Chi.

  8. #1448
    Quote Originally Posted by Iry View Post
    So if you keep a timer that tells you exactly when you will get PS, you could have a boss opening of PS + PS if you time the first jab within 1-2 seconds of getting the buff? for example:

    19s: You jab an get extra Chi.
    20s: You get PS.
    21s: You jab and get extra Chi.
    No, using PS initiates a 20 second cooldown on it. Can't be used until it's done.

  9. #1449
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    Bleh figured they would knock out the bug that actually was useful right away =P

    Which bosses does this seem to be an issue on? I can see Amber Shaper being a PITA if your doing the pull and initial positioning due to his stupid initial LOS starting spot but not sure what else?
    Yeah, Un'sok is the worst offender. Shek'zeer was a bit funny too (since we pull her to the middle of the room, just about). Other potential problem bosses I can think of:

    Stone Guard
    Spirit Kings
    Ta'yak
    Mel'jarak
    Un'sok
    Shek'zeer

    Not too many but there's a few to keep in mind I think. I'm essentially defining these problem bosses as those which need to be pulled to a specific spot at the start, thus meaning you're not in melee range for a few valuable seconds (so can't keg smash). Which means we have to rely on Crackling Jade Lightning or Dizzying Haze, which both have their issues (CJL is channeled so needs you to stand still, while DH has a travel time so needs to be aimed properly... whilst bosses move really fast).

    But yeah, not a huge issue, just something to keep in mind really I guess.

  10. #1450
    Well DEAR Monk friends!


    I have a huge problem with my monk tank. I go with the full mastery thing on my monk. So its like 7,5 % hit, 7,5 % exp and rest mastery/stamina/haste. also have the heroic elegon mastery trinket and the oxcard set stamina trinket.

    first 5 bosses in mogu heroic 0 PROBLEM, then "Will of the Emperor" NHC i drop from 100 % to 10 % in 2 sec. same thing with "Empress Shek'zeer" NHC and "Sha of Fear" NHC. I get my Guard up with a 350+ k Shield and its gone in 2 sec, after that i get melee hits for 150k + every 1 or 2 sec.


    What could be the problem with this? Should i regem for every hard melee hitting boss or is there a other way to solve my problem. To gem hast/crit ...... Can i still be okay with that in a heavy magic damage fight .... etc.

  11. #1451
    Your problem is that mastery doesn't actually reduce the damage you take in any direct way. You're probably also prioritising stamina and mastery far too much, neglecting your haste (which would provide more Chi for better Shuffle uptime), and your crit (which would provide more Elusive Brew stacks, thus more dodge).

    Haste and crit are our best methods of reducing the damage we take. You absolutely should gem for haste until you get enough resource income to feel comfortable (this amount varies, but it's generally 14-15 ER with Ascension, or 13.33 ER with Power Strikes), then get more crit. Gemming for mastery won't help you at all.

    I've occasionally advocated getting a stam/mastery set for hard hitting bosses, which I still do to an extent. By a 'stam/mastery' set I basically mean getting stamina trinkets, having a helm with the stamina meta, having shoulders/legs enchanted with stamina instead of agility, etc. Those sorts of things. Not changing entirely to stamina/mastery with full gems/enchants, since even with a high stam/mastery set you'll still want a decent amount of haste/crit for better Shuffle/EB uptime.

    Take a look at my armory for a rough idea of how to gem/enchant. I've got a few stamina enchants and some hybrid stam gems, but even those probably aren't necessary; I've just gone for them because I feel a bit more comfortable with the slightly higher stamina they provide. Mostly though I've got a lot of haste (equals roughly 14.3 ER from what I remember), and otherwise gemmed for crit for higher EB uptime. Works very nicely I find.

    Could you also provide your armory and some WoL reports if possible? I can see you have a low post count so can't post direct links, but if you give us your character name, server, and guild name we should be able to find them.

    Oh and on the concept of heavy magic fights: we basically have only one way to gear for those. Stamina, and lots of it! Since Stagger only works for Physical damage, so mastery won't help at all. We'd also use the Guard glyph and talent into Diffuse Magic.
    Last edited by Kisho; 2012-12-13 at 11:28 AM.

  12. #1452
    I find that rather ironic, since mastery's supposed to help you survive burst for longer than that, especially if you actually gear for it.

    Armory / logs link, please?
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2012-12-13 at 11:35 AM.

  13. #1453
    Ok, thanks in advance for ur support!

    This are the logs from Sunday

    w w w . worldoflogs.com/reports/nhy47r59kpzthhnz/dashboard/?s=14173&e=14568

    and to my armory ...

    i just regemmed, BUT i nearly have the same gear, and also reforged and gemmed like this one ..

    eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/wrathbringer/Ohd%C3%A4mn/advanced

  14. #1454
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...%A4mn/advanced (changed to 'en' to make it english for those of us not fluent :P)

    And http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/n...=14173&e=14568

    Will post more in a min, just wanted to make clickable links for people

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-13 at 01:31 PM ----------

    Hm, I'm a bit confused. Ohdamn in the armory, Screwmoo in the WoL? Is that correct?

  15. #1455
    Quote Originally Posted by Screwlee View Post
    Ok, thanks in advance for ur support!

    This are the logs from Sunday

    w w w . worldoflogs.com/reports/nhy47r59kpzthhnz/dashboard/?s=14173&e=14568

    and to my armory ...

    i just regemmed, BUT i nearly have the same gear, and also reforged and gemmed like this one ..

    eu.battle.net/wow/de/character/wrathbringer/Ohd%C3%A4mn/advanced
    First of all I think you need to choose to either go for agi/haste/crit OR sta/mastery, the armory you linked (assuming it's you) has a bit of a mix of both. I am personally going for sta/mastery like you said you are, but I have much more health and mastery even though my ilvl is lower.

    Prioritize shuffle more, 44% is to low. I know that at the start you're not really tanking anything but as soon as you are tanking 1 of the Emps it needs to be a 100% up. Will of the Emperor is one of the hardest hitting bosses at the moment.

    This discussion might be complicated as the playstyle between the 2 BRM builds is actually very different.

    cheers,
    Xarmon

  16. #1456
    Assuming it is correct, the immediate issue is that your shuffle uptime is pretty low, and I'm almost 100% certain that's due to your low haste. You have half the haste that I do (while we both have Ascension), so I'd imagine your ER is about... 12 ER or so? Maybe 13? You're missing out on a lot of Chi which in turn means you're either missing out on Purifying Brews (thus taking more damage from stagger), or letting Shuffle drop off (meaning you take a lot more instant damage and avoid a lot less often).

    But yeah, swap pretty much all those gems for Haste. Then focus on improving your Shuffle uptime. You should see a pretty significant improvement in your survivability with those two changes. Once you get comfortable with your resource income and are confident with keeping Shuffle up, you can try changing some of the haste gems for crit to improve EB uptime: but first, Shuffle takes priority.

    Oh, here's another thing (which again, is a symptom of low haste thus low chi income): on Will of the Emperor, you have 9 instances of Heavy Stagger. That's fair enough, but then the uptime is a mind-boggling 81 seconds. 9 seconds of heavy stagger per application? Ouch! That should've been purified immediately, if not sooner!

    But again, you need the haste to get the chi to be able to purify all that whilst keeping shuffle up. So yep, there you go: get haste. Then sort out Shuffle and Purifying Brew (perhaps get an addon to track your Stagger amounts). Sorting those two out will significantly improve your survivability.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-13 at 02:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Xarmon View Post
    First of all I think you need to choose to either go for agi/haste/crit OR sta/mastery, the armory you linked (assuming it's you) has a bit of a mix of both. I am personally going for sta/mastery like you said you are, but I have much more health and mastery even though my ilvl is lower.

    Prioritize shuffle more, 44% is to low. I know that at the start you're not really tanking anything but as soon as you are tanking 1 of the Emps it needs to be a 100% up. Will of the Emperor is one of the hardest hitting bosses at the moment.

    This discussion might be complicated as the playstyle between the 2 BRM builds is actually very different.

    cheers,
    Xarmon
    What is this other playstyle that focuses on stam/mastery? Never really heard of it talked about in any serious manner, nor can I imagine the playstyle being wildly different. While I have a separate stam/mastery set, it's not much beyond swapping to a 2 hander, using stamina trinkets and swapping my helm and a couple other items of gear. I also play exactly the same as I would with my regular tanking set.

    I also can't help but imagine a full stam/mastery set to be a complete mana sponge, taking an absolute ton of damage and draining healer mana. Sure, you'd be able to survive more burst damage, but is that really necessary? I can only imagine it being useful at the very start of progression, when undergeared, so would only really be useful for super hardcore guilds.

    More info on this would be greatly appreciated, in case I'm missing something.

  17. #1457
    To add to what Kisho has already said, assuming that this log is indeed yours, you've got an uptime of 32.5% for Zen Sphere, that's almost as much as your shuffle! That's not good, Zen Sphere is shit compared to shuffle.

    As well, your elusive brew uptime is lower than that of your fortifying brew, which means your crit is very low, and you aren't able to dodge a majority of the physical attacks of the boss, something which I've found very useful. If a stamina / mastery setup is still getting you burst down, then you're lacking your active mitigation, which we can see here. If you want to boost your active mitigation, you go into haste and crit.

  18. #1458
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    First of all you should not be taking Ascension in a mastery build. Power Strikes gives more chi per haste until 9k+, and in a mastery build you need all the chi you can get. Also in a mastery build I would not recommend gemming anything except mastery; no stam and no haste. The reason is that with double stam trinkets, stam meta, and stam enchants you should have enough...and mastery take alot (1200) to get 1% so you are gonna need all the stat points you can get. You should be reforging out of crit, hit, exp in that order and putting mastery on every piece you have, and then haste if the piece already has mastery. The hit and exp caps won't help you if you can't clear the stagger and you die, and the extra haste you should have will compensate.

    I think it is possible, in a technical sense, to be able to take less damage in a mastery build than the 'standard' build, but you would need to be purifying 10+ times a min, which means phenomenal amounts of haste.

  19. #1459
    What is this other playstyle that focuses on stam/mastery? Never really heard of it talked about in any serious manner, nor can I imagine the playstyle being wildly different. While I have a separate stam/mastery set, it's not much beyond swapping to a 2 hander, using stamina trinkets and swapping my helm and a couple other items of gear. I also play exactly the same as I would with my regular tanking set.

    I also can't help but imagine a full stam/mastery set to be a complete mana sponge, taking an absolute ton of damage and draining healer mana. Sure, you'd be able to survive more burst damage, but is that really necessary? I can only imagine it being useful at the very start of progression, when undergeared, so would only really be useful for super hardcore guilds.
    With a sta/mastery build more damage will be staggered so Purifying Brew becomes much more important. On heavy damage fights you'll spend pretty much all of your Chi on Shuffle and Purifying Brew. Guard can still be used on occasion but stuff like Chi Wave is pretty much neglected. The advantage however is that the initial hits are only 40-45% damage and with good Purifying Brew management you can sit on light stagger mostly. Combine that with a big health pool and it will be easy for healers to heal, you won't get any spike damage.

    With an agi/crit/haste build you'll have much more Chi to spend and can use all the Chi abilities available much more frequent which is good for most current content but none of these things help with incoming direct hits that are not avoided which are so deadly on some (HC) fights. Monk armor is so shit compared to the other tanks that you have nothing to fall back on when you get a string of unavoided attacks. I'd be surprised to see this build work on fights like Sha (HC), Empress (HC) and Will (HC), atleast not with the current gear levels.

    cheers,
    Xarmon

  20. #1460
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    I think it is possible, in a technical sense, to be able to take less damage in a mastery build than the 'standard' build, but you would need to be purifying 10+ times a min, which means phenomenal amounts of haste.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarmon View Post
    With a sta/mastery build more damage will be staggered so Purifying Brew becomes much more important. On heavy damage fights you'll spend pretty much all of your Chi on Shuffle and Purifying Brew. Guard can still be used on occasion but stuff like Chi Wave is pretty much neglected. The advantage however is that the initial hits are only 40-45% damage and with good Purifying Brew management you can sit on light stagger mostly. Combine that with a big health pool and it will be easy for healers to heal, you won't get any spike damage.

    With an agi/crit/haste build you'll have much more Chi to spend and can use all the Chi abilities available much more frequent which is good for most current content but none of these things help with incoming direct hits that are not avoided which are so deadly on some (HC) fights. Monk armor is so shit compared to the other tanks that you have nothing to fall back on when you get a string of unavoided attacks. I'd be surprised to see this build work on fights like Sha (HC), Empress (HC) and Will (HC), atleast not with the current gear levels.
    Ahhhh, I get the theory there now. Thanks. Definitely still going to need a lot of haste though to make it work, to generate all that Chi that's necessary to handle PB. If at any point Shuffle drops off for any length of time then the build would be rendered pointless, as you'd need a silly huge amount of mastery to compensate for the 20% from Shuffle. So yeah, you'd still need a fair amount of haste to make it work, as Chuupag says.

    Sounds pretty interesting! Definitely worth keeping in mind once I reach the bosses you mention, Xarmon. Thanks for the clarification.

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