1. #2241
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Again...I just really have a problem with you saying that a full mastery build can be a good way to play the class. The problem with a full mastery build is that unless you are getting more chi(read haste) than you would have otherwise you are going to take more damage, plain and simple. Your spikiness argument really isn't valid as it takes 1200 points to get 1% less upfront damage and if 1% spike is killing you you have other problems. Let's assume for a moment you were going to sink as many points as you could into mastery, you could maybe get another 6-8% off the top...but you would lose so much EB procs, possible loss of shuffle uptime, and your dps would go to shit meaning less raid guards. Kisho has said just a few posts back that mastery's real only niche is mitigating the effects of an under geared tank. I fully agree with that assessment. Even with the buffs next patch anyone who is not bleeding edge who is stacking mastery is most likely doing something wrong.

  2. #2242
    Ghostcrawler had this to say about monk healing numbers:

    Likewise, I wouldn't worry about the details of monk numbers, especially healing, too much yet. If you want to keep track however, here are recent changes: (stuff for Mistweavers)
    So there may be hope for the lvl 30 talents yet. Right now Zen Sphere especially is in a rather sorry state. It's healing for ~3k ticks ~8k explosions with no vengeance. You'll need a high amount of vengeance just to reach the amount it's healing on Live with zero vengeance.

  3. #2243
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Asking if someone can review my Logs and see how I went. Any feedback on my play/character build is appreciated. Only my 2nd time playing Brewmaster in a dungeon/raid setting but looking at getting into tanking alt raids on it.

    I had Power Strikes for every boss but on review I think maybe Ascension would have been better for Wind Lord (solo tanking) because I was having to hit purify every 4-5 seconds and was struggling to maintain Chi.

    Currently stacked all-out haste and I quite like it, not sure if I should be looking into crit or not.

    Logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-p19uc58zg6qiytw0/
    Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...pjeep/advanced
    Since you have roughly the same level of haste as I do, I'd say now is a good time to go for crit. That said, ultimately it's up to you whether you like your current haste levels: if you feel you need more, get more. If you feel you have too much, lose some. If you have it just right, maintain that level and get more crit.

    As for the PS/Asc thing: going Asc won't help you with that specific problem. Power Strikes is more Chi at the haste levels where it matters, including yours, so switching to Asc would actually make your problem worse. Mel'jerak is a real test for tanks and learning the balance between PB and BoK, as well as when to PB without wasting it, is key to successfully tanking that fight. I'd imagine that if you're purifying every 4-5 seconds then you're doing it for Moderate staggers, which you can't really maintain (as you found out). Only purify at Heavy stagger for that fight; your healers will manage healing through the DoT as they can afford to focus on you more, since your raid Guards will be going out a lot and for a very high amount. You'll significantly reduce the healing they need to do, so they can focus on you.

    Your Shuffle uptime seems to be pretty consistently around the 80-85% mark, which is a good start, but could be improved. You need to aim for as close to 100% as possible, which should be doable with the amount of haste you have. This could be a symptom of purifying too much, so you don't have enough Chi to keep Shuffle active.

    You're doing pretty good on using EB; your duration on the buff and amount of stacks gained are fairly close together, so that's working out well. You're using it often and not wasting many stacks.

    You could potentially use Keg Smash more often, judging by amount of Chi gained compared to the overall length of the fight. Very important you use this on CD.

    Overall you're doing good: there's room for improvement, but you're definitely on the right track. Keep up that active mitigation, use Keg Smash on CD to help with that. Get the balance between PB and BoK right. It's a matter of experience; you'll get it. Good luck!

  4. #2244
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Again...I just really have a problem with you saying that a full mastery build can be a good way to play the class. The problem with a full mastery build is that unless you are getting more chi(read haste) than you would have otherwise you are going to take more damage, plain and simple. Your spikiness argument really isn't valid as it takes 1200 points to get 1% less upfront damage and if 1% spike is killing you you have other problems. Let's assume for a moment you were going to sink as many points as you could into mastery, you could maybe get another 6-8% off the top...but you would lose so much EB procs, possible loss of shuffle uptime, and your dps would go to shit meaning less raid guards. Kisho has said just a few posts back that mastery's real only niche is mitigating the effects of an under geared tank. I fully agree with that assessment. Even with the buffs next patch anyone who is not bleeding edge who is stacking mastery is most likely doing something wrong.
    Different strokes and all.

    Some groups have healers who tend to have, well, lets say less than stellar reaction times. And any amount of spike damage reduction is a boon in that case.

    Sure, 1% less upfront damage isn't going to be a huge difference one way or another, but if you're going that route, why bother enchanting every piece of gear? Man, it's 10k for the sha gem, 500 agil isn't going to save you from death anyway, why bother getting that?

    So if you didn't have those mastery stats, they'd be somewhere in haste or crit, I'd imagine. Just look like five posts up where Madgod says he ends fights with 2 min worth of shuffle. What's the point of that? Ideally, you end a fight somewhere between 10 and 30 sec worth of shuffle. If you have 30 chi more worth of shuffle then that, it's 30 chi worth of haste (that's a helluva lot of haste, btw) that's basically wasted. It's not even more dps since 3x tigerpalm > 2x jab + 1 bok. I try to run with as little haste as possible, usually around 2-3k unavoidable haste.

    You can't just look at stats in a vacuum and go "yeah, 1% less initial damage is pointless, I'd rather get more haste" because you could almost say the same of every stat.

    As far as I can tell:

    Optimal damage - hardcap hit/exp then stack crit
    Optimal EH/time until death - stack mastery/stam
    Optimal lowest damage taken - stack haste to a point then crit

    Different situations call for different builds.

  5. #2245
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    Possibly! People are saying it could be a nice emergency cooldown, to help you when you get low on HP. The main issue with Zen Sphere in 5.0/5.1 is the extremely prohibitive Chi cost, so since that's gone it could be quite nice. It's worth testing and seeing how it is for you, though.

    Personally I quite like being able to throw Chi Waves on the raid, for those who need the heals. But y'know, choose on a per-boss basis.
    Chi Wave > any of the other healing talents there. Even with the increased cooldown, it blows everything out of the water on PTR.

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  6. #2246
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Mastery is probably one of the better stats to look at in a vacuum b/c all it does it reduce initial damage, nothing else. All the other stats we care about; hit, exp, haste, and crit all have synergistic effects with each other. A weak relationship exists between mastery and haste where if you have more mastery you need more haste, but that does not come close to the effects the other 4 have with each other.

    Mad said he sometimes comes out of the fight with 2+ minutes, not that he comes out of every fight with 2+ mins. I would assume since he is an intelligent individual that he is gearing for the more annoying/difficult fights in the tier, ones where you do need more haste to purify, and he has excess haste, therefore chi, on the easier fights, hence the long length of shuffle.

    Your enchanting comparison also doesn't have much weight. Why would you not enchant something, it's not a tradeoff. You either have an enchant or you don't. Every point of mastery is one less point of haste/crit/hit/exp you don't have, all of which have been shown mathematically, ages ago, to be better than mastery.

    I'm all for the devil's advocate type of debate, but don't throw bad math or anecdotes into something when 99.9% of the community knows that mastery is at worst a bad stat to stack, and at best a very narrow tool to use in niche circumstances.

  7. #2247
    Well brotherbrian monk tank from midwinter stacked mastery througout his progression and i dont think many brewmasters killed conteng as early as he did. If you dont believe that mastery works, you can check my vid on youtube on empress was full mastery at that time and acording to my healers easier to heal than our pally. When you get to a boss with 500k hp that swings for 250 (will hc) half on blues you try to get solutions, mine was stacking mastery. And that 3-4% helped a lot. It might not be the best build but it does work.

    Cheers

  8. #2248
    Our mastery is the absolute worst designed out of all the tanking classes. As the expansion continues and item level budgets increase, they are going to have to make a change to the way our mastery and stagger in general works because at a high enough mastery level, all you will be doing is casting purifying brew every 5 seconds.

    Not my idea of fun, honestly. I personally find the whole idea of purifying brew to be retarded and unnecessary. The fact that the stagger damage is taken off the top and applied over time is benefit enough over other tanking classes. Giving an ability which forces people to micromanage stagger size is redundant to our playstyle. Our active mitigation plate is already more than full having to manage shuffle uptime, guard, expel harm, and elusive brew stacks.

    If they wanted to develop monks tanks and give them a way to decrease damage taken, they honestly should have just given brewmasters a straight up bonus to armor rather than forcing us to deal with something as stupid as purifying brew.

    Blizzard just got far too fancy with this mechanic. They wanted to give us an ability like block, but you can't call it block because that's already in the game and warriors/paladins have it. Instead we get this over complicated system where some morons insist the only proper way to play a brewmaster is to use PB whenever you get heavy stagger. I'd rather do damage with my chi. It's not like healers have a problem healing anything this tier, and if they do, they need to be replaced.

    Also, one single brewmaster tank stacking mastery during progression does in no way indicate that is the proper way to play. Looking at this guy brotherbrian's armory, he hasn't even completed full gold challenge modes yet, which speaks volumes about his playskill more than the progression of an entire guild. He clearly picked what worked for him and his guild, but let's not all treat it as gospel. Do we know what would have happened if a skilled brewmaster had been stacking crit during progression? No, because the vast majority of guilds did not use brewmasters because they had no clue how the hell they worked.

    People are going to play the game however they want, my opinion on brewmaster tanking was actually changed about a month back where I decided to abandon haste stacking and went with straight up crit gemming. I don't find myself missing the haste, in fact, I barely noticed a difference in playstyle going from 9000 haste to right around 2500. More than anything, you just fill the occasional gcd in with an additional tiger palm. A lot of this impact on my playstyle was actually running challenge modes where you lose a large portion of your stats. Running them repeatedly with a different buyer every weekend helped me realize what was really necessary to the brewmaster class, and stacking haste wasn't it.

    My opinion on the matter, at least.

  9. #2249
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Mastery is probably one of the better stats to look at in a vacuum b/c all it does it reduce initial damage, nothing else. All the other stats we care about; hit, exp, haste, and crit all have synergistic effects with each other. A weak relationship exists between mastery and haste where if you have more mastery you need more haste, but that does not come close to the effects the other 4 have with each other.

    Mad said he sometimes comes out of the fight with 2+ minutes, not that he comes out of every fight with 2+ mins. I would assume since he is an intelligent individual that he is gearing for the more annoying/difficult fights in the tier, ones where you do need more haste to purify, and he has excess haste, therefore chi, on the easier fights, hence the long length of shuffle.

    Your enchanting comparison also doesn't have much weight. Why would you not enchant something, it's not a tradeoff. You either have an enchant or you don't. Every point of mastery is one less point of haste/crit/hit/exp you don't have, all of which have been shown mathematically, ages ago, to be better than mastery.

    I'm all for the devil's advocate type of debate, but don't throw bad math or anecdotes into something when 99.9% of the community knows that mastery is at worst a bad stat to stack, and at best a very narrow tool to use in niche circumstances.
    There is a great deal of difference between spike (initial) damage and dot (stagger) damage. Example:

    Damage taken on 4 min Stone Guards (Total tank damage: 61 mil)
    Damage taken on 19 min Sha (Total tank damage: 58 mil)

    And yet Sha is significantly more likely to kill a tank than stone guards, despite doing roughly 20% as much dps as stone guards does on tanks. Dot damage is significantly easier to heal.

    Reducing initial damage - even if you don't purify the stagger at all - is almost as good as completely negating it. Overall damage taken doesn't change too much from a mastery/no mastery build but then again, overall damage taken is quite worthless as a metric for basically anything.

    Mathematically, ages ago, it's been shown that crit/haste reduce more damage over a long period of time than mastery, which I assert is worth diddly squat. Tanks don't die during long periods of time due to healers running oom, tanks die to spikes. Just look at how much damage my druid took during our sha kill: slightly more than HALF the melee damage of either of the other tanks - heck, even less than one unlucky dps - and never spiked as high. Yet, all of us are in agreement that my druid is the crappiest tank of our group for Sha because the druid gets spiked. Every third pull or so, a thrash will happen when all my cds are gone, hit me 3 times, and take me from 100 to 0 and there's nothing I can do about it. People don't really look at those wipes but I'd much rather not cause a rng wipe every hour or so and take comparable damage.

    Take a look at the following example:

    I was tanking 3 windblades on heroic Empress last night with my (crit gemmed/reforged exp capped) 496 brewmaster alt.

    The result? When my avoidance failed, I died: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=13629&e=13977
    Shuffle was up, stagger was only ticking for a mere 17k right before the burst, and all of my cds had been exhausted by that point. Yet I still splatted inside 3 seconds with random spot heals. EH is still a decently important consideration.

    If I had say, 5% more mastery, then I would most certainly have survived that section, and we would've killed empress yesterday instead of having to go back and reclear trash today. But since I mainly tanked normal and challenge modes on that character, I was not geared correctly for such a fight and caused at least one wipe.

    -----

    While my enchant comparison was a little off, it certainly still carries weight. At the instant of death (and for the preceding five seconds or so), crit and haste are irrelevant. You either didn't have the elusive brew buff up or you got hit through the avoidance, doesn't matter. Shuffle is always up and a significant stagger is almost always purified (in above example, stagger was ticking for 17k until the final second before death where it jumped to 50k). The only thing that will save you at that point is stamina, armor, and mastery, of which armor we have basically no control over.

    So yes, in life-or-death scenarios, having a significant amount of mastery helps, and it takes from stats that are irrelevant to your death. While the majority of these situations occur during progression, there are just some fights that still stress tank survivability - like empress, apparently.

    -----

    Well brotherbrian monk tank from midwinter stacked mastery througout his progression and i dont think many brewmasters killed conteng as early as he did.
    I want to emphasize this, not just because it's my guild, but because of the ideology behind this. For progression, it's absolutely not ideal to choose a spec and gear that results in lower overall damage 98 times out of 100, and you fall over the other 2 times. Time and again, rng strikes and those 2 times just happen to be when you've overcome everything and are close to a kill.

    ------

    Our mastery is the absolute worst designed out of all the tanking classes. As the expansion continues and item level budgets increase, they are going to have to make a change to the way our mastery and stagger in general works because at a high enough mastery level, all you will be doing is casting purifying brew every 5 seconds.
    If this happens, monks would become the answer to every healer's prayers. Dot damage is so much incredibly easier to heal through even if it's a huge amount more.

    Also, one single brewmaster tank stacking mastery during progression does in no way indicate that is the proper way to play.
    Nearly every high end tank stacked EH stats. See Absalom, Riggnaros, Sjeta, etc. Stamina/mastery gems and enchants galore during progression. Also, he didn't get gold mostly because he had basically only time to raid and very few other things. Those times you see on his page are basically his first (and likely only) pull of each challenge mode.

    No, because the vast majority of guilds did not use brewmasters because they had no clue how the hell they worked.
    Please, give us some credit here. Every high end guild tested the shit out of them on the months of PTR leading up to MoP launch to ride the OP bandwagon if they ended up where DKs were at the start of Wrath, if nothing else.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-02-14 at 06:33 AM.

  10. #2250
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    Mastery was useful in early progression ... Essentially it's a tool for mitigating the effect of an undergeared tank.

    There really isn't a fight that I can think of where stacking mastery would be beneficial beyond mitigating the effects of an undergeared tank. That's it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Takerpt View Post
    Well brotherbrian monk tank from midwinter stacked mastery througout his progression and i dont think many brewmasters killed conteng as early as he did ... When you get to a boss with 500k hp that swings for 250 (will hc) half on blues you try to get solutions, mine was stacking mastery. And that 3-4% helped a lot. It might not be the best build but it does work.
    You're making mine and Kisho's point with this post.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-13 at 07:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Mathematically, ages ago, it's been shown that crit/haste reduce more damage over a long period of time than mastery, which I assert is worth diddly squat. Tanks don't die during long periods of time due to healers running oom, tanks die to spikes, such as this following example:

    I was tanking 3 windblades on heroic Empress last night with my (crit gemmed/reforged exp capped) 496 brewmaster alt.

    The result? When my avoidance failed, I died: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=13629&e=13977
    Shuffle was up, stagger was only ticking for a mere 17k right before the burst, and all of my cds had been exhausted by that point. Yet I still splatted inside 3 seconds with random spot heals. EH is still a decently important consideration.

    If I had say, 5% more mastery, then I would most certainly have survived that section, and we would've killed empress yesterday instead of having to go back and reclear trash today. But since I mainly tanked normal and challenge modes on that character, I was not geared correctly for such a fight and caused at least one wipe.

    -----

    While my enchant comparison was a little off, it certainly still carries weight. At the instant of death (and for the preceding five seconds or so), crit and haste are irrelevant. You either didn't have the elusive brew buff up or you got hit through the avoidance, doesn't matter. Shuffle is always up and a significant stagger is almost always purified (in above example, stagger was ticking for 17k until the final second before death where it jumped to 50k). The only thing that will save you at that point is stamina, armor, and mastery, of which armor we have basically no control over.

    So yes, in life-or-death scenarios, having a significant amount of mastery helps, and it takes from stats that are irrelevant to your death.
    People who make this argument fail to take into account that that life of death situation could have been avoided entirely by more haste/crit or better play in the first place. Pendulum swings both ways.

  11. #2251
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    The result? When my avoidance failed, I died: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=13629&e=13977
    Shuffle was up, stagger was only ticking for a mere 17k right before the burst, and all of my cds had been exhausted by that point. Yet I still splatted inside 3 seconds with random spot heals. EH is still a decently important consideration.
    This is a bad example with that particular log. I see 5 seconds of you taking hits without a single direct heal over 10k. You received 2 wild growth ticks for 15k combined and a renewing mist tick for 7800. A little earlier you got gift of the ox on your own for 83k. This is a complete healer fail rather than a problem with your gear choices. Healer's not paying attention is the reason you died, not a bad string of avoidance. You had 67% avoidance over the course of the fight. The problem I find most in raids is that healers become complacent because brewmasters sometimes have these amazing strings when they don't take damage due to avoidance. Then it all goes to shit when you have a few hits, and healers simply do not possess the appropriate reaction time to this occurring.
    Granted, you took a combined damage of approximately 550k in 5 seconds, but in that phase of the fight, that enemy dps is to be expected and anticipated by healers, and is easily healed through.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-14 at 01:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Nearly every high end tank stacked EH stats. See Absalom, Riggnaros, Sjeta, etc. Stamina/mastery gems and enchants galore during progression. Also, he didn't get gold mostly because he had basically only time to raid and very few other things. Those times you see on his page are basically his first (and likely only) pull of each challenge mode.
    I also remember reading their logs, their tank DPS was absolute dogshit during progression. How many fights would have been won earlier if they had played their classes correctly to abuse gigantic vengeance stacks rather than jumping on the old "EH is king" bandwagon?

    Granted, you can just tell me to fuck off because I will never subject myself to progression raids, as many of those guilds are run by gigantic douches. I raid two nights a week in a GDKP, but that doesn't mean my points do not have merit.

  12. #2252
    People who make this argument fail to take into account that that life of death situation could have been avoided entirely by more haste/crit or better play in the first place. Pendulum swings both ways.
    How on earth could you possibly say that gearing for haste/crit will completely remove all chances of instagibs? At best it lowers the possibility. At worst it causes you to die every time one of those situations pop up while the EH build barely survives - but more importantly, survives.

    Edit: Also, I have to point out that my brewmaster was geared specifically for max damage avoidance (crit) at that point and stagger damage was almost a non-factor in my death. And if I didn't play well, then modesty aside, I'd wager the overwhelming majority of the population wouldn't be considered playing well too and we'd all benefit from more EH

    This is a bad example with that particular log. I see 5 seconds of you taking hits without a single direct heal over 10k. You received 2 wild growth ticks for 15k combined and a renewing mist tick for 7800. A little earlier you got gift of the ox on your own for 83k. This is a complete healer fail rather than a problem with your gear choices.
    No, this is a realistic raid scenario. My healers have done the fight a dozen times or more. My main healer was fixated and my backup healer was either fixated as well, had to run goop, or was healing something else that seemed to be more dire at that point. Players aren't perfect, you'd be surprised at how much tolerance for failure exists in every raid setup. I actually called out for sac about 7 or 8 seconds before my death but didn't receive it either.

    But that's not the point - if I were geared more appropriately, I wouldn't have died. My brewmaster was simply not built for enough tolerance.

    I also remember reading their logs, their tank DPS was absolute dogshit during progression. How many fights would have been won earlier if they had played their classes correctly to abuse gigantic vengeance stacks rather than jumping on the old "EH is king" bandwagon?
    Let me assure you that everyone in top guilds theorycraft to some degree, tanks significantly more so. We all rolled characters on the PTR, leveled multiple toons to 90, and pulled LFR, normal, and heroics as many times as we could. We practiced, theorcrafted, reforged, and tried out new shit all the time.

    The overwhelming conclusive result was that surviving 99% of the time with dogshit dps > surviving 90% of the time with a pristine damage taken/done parse. There -is- a reason those guys are world first/second/third etc. and it's not [just] because they throw tremendous amounts of time at the game.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-02-14 at 01:27 AM.

  13. #2253
    No, this is a realistic raid scenario. My healers have done the fight a dozen times or more. My main healer was fixated and my backup healer was either fixated as well, had to run goop, or was healing something else that seemed to be more dire at that point. Players aren't perfect, you'd be surprised at how much tolerance for failure exists in every raid setup. I actually called out for sac about 7 or 8 seconds before my death but didn't receive it either. But that's not the point - if I were geared more appropriately, I wouldn't have died. My brewmaster was simply not built for enough tolerance.
    I disagree. If you had stacked mastery in this instance you would have lived for another 2 seconds without heals and then died to the next melee swing. The problem with your death was lack of healing, straight up, using your particular example to justify your opinion about proper gearing is just misleading everyone who reads this forum, many of whom are extremely impressionable people.

    There -is- a reason those guys are world first/second/third etc. and it's not [just] because they throw tremendous amounts of time at the game.
    I disagree with this as well. Many of the top guilds had tons of attempts at progression fights before scoring a kill. The fact that their tanks would stick with EH builds when dying to enrages shows that they are unwilling to take additional risk for greater reward in the form of earlier boss kills.

    I specifically remember watching blood legion's first heroic elegon kill where riggnaros is the last man standing and kills the boss during purgatory, and was applauded for it. Well, do you honestly believe the other 24 people in the raid would have gotten faceplanted after 20 stacks of overcharged due to the extended amount of time their phase three took if their tank was doing the amount of dps he should have been doing?

  14. #2254
    Quote Originally Posted by djtravitrav View Post
    I disagree with this as well. Many of the top guilds had tons of attempts at progression fights before scoring a kill. The fact that their tanks would stick with EH builds when dying to enrages shows that they are unwilling to take additional risk for greater reward in the form of earlier boss kills.
    The only thing these guilds care about is earlier boss kills. If you pull a boss 10 times and your tank lives every time so you can practice the mechanics, roll the RNG etc you give your guild the best chance of learning/killing bosses as fast as possible. If one 1-2 of those pulls the tank dies, you've wasted time and pulls. Minimising RNG for additional learning is a far better approach as a tank than min/maxing your DPS and acknowledging that chance of you randomly dying is higher, unless you have already learned the fight and you're wiping solely to the DPS check, which is very unusual.

    Essentially it's just a priority system. When it comes to gearing, the most important thing for a tank during progression is to die as little as possible to burst/bad RNG etc and to require the minimum possible level of performance from your healers to keep you alive. On any hard-hitting boss, sometimes you will get unlucky and take a string of hits or healers will be unable to help for some reason or whatever. In those situations, you want to live if it's at all possible. If that's not an issue, you can consider other factors like the healer mana situation and your DPS. On a fight like Ultraxion where the chance of a tank death is close to nil and DPS is an issue, you should absolutely be gearing for DPS. On a fight like Sha you should absolutely be gearing for effective health, since the DPS check isn't going to be your primary cause of wipes during learning, it's going to be mechanics fails (which a tank can't control of course) and tank deaths to dread thrash spikes.

    At no point should you ever be gearing to take the smallest amount of damage over the course of a whole boss fight, since that's a completely irrelevant number.
    Last edited by Gondlem; 2013-02-14 at 02:02 AM.

  15. #2255
    Quote Originally Posted by djtravitrav View Post
    I disagree. If you had stacked mastery in this instance you would have lived for another 2 seconds without heals and then died to the next melee swing. The problem with your death was lack of healing, straight up, using your particular example to justify your opinion about proper gearing is just misleading everyone who reads this forum, many of whom are extremely impressionable people.
    Surviving for another 2 seconds when I died in 5 is a world of difference and would probably have allowed me to live. I never promoted any sort of gearing. My latest three posts have merely been stating that mastery stacking is -justified- in certain scenarios, one of which I provided. If you notice, after yesterday, I gemmed/enchanted/retooled some reforges on my monk and his like 7 or 8 new upgrades and I still haven't moved (completely) away from crit/expertise hardcap yet.


    I disagree with this as well. Many of the top guilds had tons of attempts at progression fights before scoring a kill. The fact that their tanks would stick with EH builds when dying to enrages shows that they are unwilling to take additional risk for greater reward in the form of earlier boss kills.

    I specifically remember watching blood legion's first heroic elegon kill where riggnaros is the last man standing and kills the boss during purgatory, and was applauded for it. Well, do you honestly believe the other 24 people in the raid would have gotten faceplanted after 20 stacks of overcharged due to the extended amount of time their phase three took if their tank was doing the amount of dps he should have been doing?
    I think you overvalue tank dps in 25m settings. Top blood dk tank dps for Elegon is around 180k. Even if Riggnaros was half of that, upgrading to 180k would only have been 3% of the raid's total DPS. It took 70 seconds for their raid to wipe in phase 3. 3% of that is 2.1 seconds. Shortening phase 3 by 2.1 seconds vs living for another 15 seconds after raid wipe and soloing the boss?

  16. #2256
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Surviving for another 2 seconds when I died in 5 is a world of difference and would probably have allowed me to live. I never promoted any sort of gearing. My latest three posts have merely been stating that mastery stacking is -justified- in certain scenarios, one of which I provided. If you notice, after yesterday, I gemmed/enchanted/retooled some reforges on my monk and his like 7 or 8 new upgrades and I still haven't moved (completely) away from crit/expertise hardcap yet.
    It's not my intention to nitpick your points, but what I meant is that if you had focused on a mastery build in that particular scenario, you would have lived an additional period of time, but it would not have solved the ACTUAL problem of your healers not healing you properly, and you would have died shortly after regardless.

    I think you overvalue tank dps in 25m settings. Top blood dk tank dps for Elegon is around 180k. Even if Riggnaros was half of that, upgrading to 180k would only have been 3% of the raid's total DPS. It took 70 seconds for their raid to wipe in phase 3. 3% of that is 2.1 seconds. Shortening phase 3 by 2.1 seconds vs living for another 15 seconds after raid wipe and soloing the boss?
    Probably correct. But I get the feeling he would have lived the same amount of time regardless of how he geared. Using a DK tank was a bad example to make my point.

  17. #2257
    Rune of Re-Orgination: I believe it takes all your lower stats and bumps it up to the highest level number.

    Haste: 9500
    Crit: 6000
    Mastery: 3000.

    Trinket procs, all are at 9500 for 20 secs. IMHO this isnt too great unless you stack one really high. Most of us are not, stacking that high except an occasional few. If you stacked Mastery, this would be a pretty sweet deal as I have seen monks hit 14k mastery rating while reforge/gemming for it.
    Last edited by gynshon; 2013-02-14 at 06:43 AM.

    Sig made by Shyama. Click sig for current Warlock armory.
    Forthright Website - Blog coming soon.

  18. #2258
    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    Rune of Re-Orgination: I believe it takes all your lower stats and bumps it up to the highest level number.

    Haste: 9500
    Crit: 6000
    Mastery: 3000.

    Trinket procs, all are at 9500 for 20 secs. IMHO this isnt too great unless you stack one really high. Most of us are not, stacking that high except an occasional few. If you stacked Mastery, this would be a pretty sweet deal as I have seen monks hit 14k mastery rating while reforge/gemming for it.
    Actually GC just this evening confirmed how the trinket procs

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    - Rune of Re-Origination – 0.46 RealPPM on landing harmful abilities and spells, and melee/ranged abilities and swings. 22 sec ICD
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Warning: technical mumbo jumbo follows.

    At proc time, it checks how much crit, haste, and mastery you have (yes, this is a snapshot, and does NOT include the mastery raid buff). It finds which is the highest of those 3 (tie breaking rule: crit trumps haste trumps mastery), and gives you a buff of +[sum of lowest two stats] to your highest stat, and -[lowest stat A] and -[lowest stat B]. For example, if you have 6000 mastery, 3000 crit, 2000 haste, and the proc goes off, it gives you a buff that provides [+5000 mastery, -3000 crit, -2000 haste]. It does not continue adjusting that buff as stats change during its duration. Yes, this means that if you have a temporary buff to a stat that is not your highest (even with the temporary buff), and that temporary buff falls off during Re-Origination, you *could* end up with negative rating. In this obscure edge case, negative crit does reduce your crit chance, negative mastery does reduce whatever it normally does, and negative haste is ignored.

  19. #2259
    Wow, then this trinket sucks for us then.

    Sig made by Shyama. Click sig for current Warlock armory.
    Forthright Website - Blog coming soon.

  20. #2260
    High Overlord
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    176
    That's very disappointing for that trinket. I had higher hopes...
    I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

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