1. #2281
    Quote Originally Posted by siccora View Post
    yeah but the lower the hp, the greater the heal. that's why shamans don't have that oh shit button spell.
    It's tied directly to healing, which means you can be in the middle of a cast and your tank can die on you, even if that cast, due to mastery, would have saved his life.

    A constant damage reduction (or increase of effective health) is much more favorable.

  2. #2282

  3. #2283
    Quote Originally Posted by Zonex View Post
    Well that's a dissapointment, all the trinkets are absolutely dogshit compared to the VP vendor one. Guess that's gonna stay BiS even whilst being 522...

    Might as well take Talisman of Bloodlust as the 2nd BiS, there isn't anything better
    Rune of reorigination is dogshit for sure,
    but overall im much more pleased with trinket alternatives for t15 then i have been as tank in a long time.
    2nd stat + agi proc
    agi + 2nd stat proc
    some on use, some equip
    "low hp heal"
    and so on.
    for 522 (including the 2 VP trinkets) there is about 6 trinkets i consider viable, and not sure which is best. Dont think that has been the case, EVER really.

  4. #2284
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Also, why didn't you ever consider externals? Whenever I was tanking three windblades, I was rolling cooldowns. You had seven paladins in your raid. That's at MINIMUM seven cooldowns (14 if they were talented) you could have called upon. Why didn't you?[/size]
    Unless Fort Brew is up you should make a habit of calling for an available external (already listed by others) when the reinforcements arrive, that is always the spikiest time for me outside of the initial pull.

    In regards to the ramblings of mastery vs X the way I see it is that the conversion rate of 1200 rating for 1% is so poor you are better off focusing on Stamina instead if you are going for EH. You can easily pick up at least 100k HP without to much of a hit to your other stats through trinkets, flask, food, and tradeskill options (I love my choice of LW).

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  5. #2285
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    There -is- a reason those guys are world first/second/third etc. and it's not [just] because they throw tremendous amounts of time at the game.
    There are certainly good, of course who can't deny. But :

    a) In a whole, good players, not juste some people in their raid. In "normal guilds", some players are kinda "not that good" and lower the progression.

    b) Please, I remember checking the PTR videos on MMO with top guild raiding during hours I could NEVER AFFORD (on US time, 12h or so on a classic working day). I also saw that guy crying for mummy while she calls him for dinner and finally wins out "Please, I can't control schedule !". Also, I'm the right person to tell what is the truth, cause we have a friend / old WoW buddy that switched from Method to our guild. As he said :

    - No rest
    - No time to eat (scheduled !)
    - 6h to sleep, no more !
    - Raid leader wake up everyone

    This is just insane and I assure you I'm more confident in my cleverness from being engineer from one of the highest school while playing and making right choices than following what "the top players" are doing. They certainly are good but I'm almost also pretty sure that most of them don't have my brain potential even if I like to debate. Your [just] has to be ponderated cause their raiding schedule is at least 75% of their success being first.

  6. #2286
    There are tons of people that are individually better than most BL players. However, they cannot play the same hours. BL requires you to have 3 geared alts, able to raid 12+ hours a day every day for progression, etc. They take people that can do that, not necessarily the best players.

    The most impressive guilds are the ones that have a set raiding schedule that fits within normal hours and are competitive in the race. Will they finish first? Nope, they don't have the time invested. Are they competitive? Yep. Put those two on a LAN event and battle it out, I would venture to say the less hardcore guild would win out because they have more skill and use their time efficiently, instead of throwing numbers at an encounter.

    With that said, it is quite funny to see people compare Rigg and Brotherbrian and Mastery stacking and compare that to a 10 environment. Can't do that. Progression dps checks in 10 man were extremely tight that you needed solid dps from tanks to beat them. Additionally, you don't have 4+ healers to keep up with the damage, and Monks didn't have the resources to purify if they stacked full Mastery in those wonderful blues during progression.

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  7. #2287
    If I'm reading this right, looks like you could have reapplied EB prior to your death (at least the second one).

    You also only used Guard twice, so having that up would have helped.

    Also, why didn't you ever consider externals? Whenever I was tanking three windblades, I was rolling cooldowns. You had seven paladins in your raid. That's at MINIMUM seven cooldowns (14 if they were talented) you could have called upon. Why didn't you?

    If you had 5% more mastery, you would have lost out on 6000 rating on other stats. You would have to lose your hardcap and take a severe dip in crit... and your energy regeneration is already going to be low at the haste levels you're at... and it shows with your shuffle uptime. I would say that's starting to get into dangerous territory with your active mitigation.

    Honestly I don't think that it was because you lacked mastery that you died here. I see a lot of avenues you could have taken that would have highly reduced the likelihood of your death that you ignored.
    Here's the situation I was in: I survived the initial pileup of 3 adds, and they started to focus on various other targets by then. Fortifying brew, painsuppression, and ironbark were exhausted, and I had called for the sac (which never came, but that's another story.) Those were the external cds I had been assigned.

    If I had any cooldowns left at that point (stacking brew back up, guard, etc.), I would have saved them for when I had 3 adds back on me, or if someone accidentally kited another windblade through my pile. Neither of my deaths were when three adds were on me, they were from 2.

    My shuffle uptime is 100% when I'm actually alive the entire time (just check any other fight in that log), haste seems to be completely irrelevant to that. I believe I had 25 seconds left on shuffle for my first death. If I had reforged to mastery, I would've taken a chunk out of crit to be sure, but crit is basically a dps stat as far as I can tell (as an aside, are there basically no tanking 25H brewmasters? I ranked top 100 every single fight I was in apparently this week).

    Finally, while I could have done some things better (chi wave, maybe), that's skill and reaction reliant, either of which is possible for me to screw up. Mastery on gear is always there.



    Now imagine if you would've had more haste instead of all that useless mastery

    Then you could've thrown out some chi waves that take <1s to bounce inbetween you and the adds and heal for 100k+

    That would've helped you live through the adds, guaranteed.

    I honestly don't get people gemming mastery, it's terrible. IF you need EH you should go with stamina, it's better. (pre 5.2)
    The problem with avoidance tanks that is you can't really predict your burst periods. Furthermore, I'm not the only one that's taking damage, and I'm usually topped within <1 sec whenever I do. It's really hard to say whether chi wave would've healed me or not. Sometimes I sit fine at 3 adds with my cds running, sometimes I get demolished by 2. /shrug. I'm sure I'll get a better feel for chi wave as I continue, but at that point, mastery would have *definitely* saved my life for another ~2 seconds, while haste would *maybe* have done so dependent upon me actually using the right ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorgl View Post
    How is that supposed to be the lack of Mastery ? Your shuffle uptime is 73% (which, on a tank swap fight where you have a lot of time to build shuffle for when you taunt back is REALLY low), you have windsong enchant and, the most horrifying, you only cast TWO freaking guards in 6 min. I know you're not supposed to have 12 in that time, but two... :-/
    I'm not blaming you for not mastering perfectly your BrM (who, moreover is an alt if I undertand correcltly) and I remember myself having the same difficulties not so long ago, and actually I'm still not at the skill cap I wish I was. But this is not because you weren't full mastery, really.

    Edit : By rereading that I feel that this might sound mean. I'm not trying to patronize or anything ; I should add that english is not my native language at all so tones are a bit hard for me. If my post seems mean, I'm honnestly sorry !
    No worries, I'm just as critical of my play as anyone else. Here's some more background: a.) yeah, this was an alt. I usually run with an alt group. I didn't even know I was going to tank anything on Tuesday until I logged on like 10 min before raid time, so no preparation at all. Thus, the shoddy crit stacking. b.) 489 Garajal offhand. I decided it wasn't worth dancing steel.

    Anyway, the shuffle I mentioned earlier - I was alive for roughly 75% of the wipe and I had shuffle up 73% of the time. I'm also not a huge fan of guard spam. I try to use guard if and only if I know damage is incoming and I have no other cds available. If I use it any other time, all it does is make the healers overheal. Here's an example of what I would consider fair guard usage from me.

    However, I don't deny that for cutting edge players that do content for which they are undergeared, that's a logical choice. But not for 99.9% of the players, including those who have a decent HC progression ; therefore there's no point advising for that (in guides mostly).
    You stack mastery/stamina for EH, and EH is for those times when tanks keep dying. I'm sure every raid at some point or another had issues with tank deaths, which EH can help mitigate. Blindly going for the max damage avoidance builds sounds equally as silly as advising full mastery builds - each has their place and situation where they shine.

    This is just insane and I assure you I'm more confident in my cleverness from being engineer from one of the highest school while playing and making right choices than following what "the top players" are doing. They certainly are good but I'm almost also pretty sure that most of them don't have my brain potential even if I like to debate. Your [just] has to be ponderated cause their raiding schedule is at least 75% of their success being first.
    I wouldn't be. I converse with a fair number of "top players" and I'm an engineer as well from a top college as well, and I don't feel as if I'm particularly any smarter or dumber than they are.

    There are tons of people that are individually better than most BL players. However, they cannot play the same hours. BL requires you to have 3 geared alts, able to raid 12+ hours a day every day for progression, etc. They take people that can do that, not necessarily the best players.
    Their progression is also ridiculously short. All you need is a job that allows you a month or two of vacation time a year and you're set. After progression is over - like 3 weeks per tier, I'm sure they spend less time in the instance than 90% of raiders, who for whatever reason, feel better that they're doing 10-15 hour raid weeks while BL clears it all in 5.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-02-14 at 07:18 PM.

  8. #2288
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Here's the situation I was in: I survived the initial pileup of 3 adds, and they started to focus on various other targets by then. Fortifying brew, painsuppression, and ironbark were exhausted, and I had called for the sac (which never came, but that's another story.) Those were the external cds I had been assigned.

    If I had any cooldowns left at that point (stacking brew back up, guard, etc.), I would have saved them for when I had 3 adds back on me, or if someone accidentally kited another windblade through my pile. Neither of my deaths were when three adds were on me, they were from 2.

    My shuffle uptime is 100% when I'm actually alive the entire time (just check any other fight in that log), haste seems to be completely irrelevant to that. I believe I had 25 seconds left on shuffle for my first death. If I had reforged to mastery, I would've taken a chunk out of crit to be sure, but crit is basically a dps stat as far as I can tell (as an aside, are there basically no tanking 25H brewmasters? I ranked top 100 every single fight I was in apparently this week).

    Finally, while I could have done some things better (chi wave, maybe), that's skill and reaction reliant, either of which is possible for me to screw up. Mastery on gear is always there.
    I don't know what to tell you, then. I have never had any trouble surviving with much less mastery than you at similar periods of progression whilst undergeared.

    Also did you just call crit a DPS stat?

  9. #2289
    As I said earlier, there are just simply time and places where having more mastery than the base possible amount is useful and it's not a complete waste of stats.

    I'm fairly sure I was tremendously undergeared for heroic grand empress25 - even when we were attempting her during progression I think everyone's ilvl was roughly 500 and my little dude was 496 and dps specced to boot.

    And yes, crit seems to be the highest dps secondary (the only one, in fact). That it happens to generate more elusive brew as a byproduct is a small bonus in my view.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-02-14 at 07:43 PM.

  10. #2290
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    As I said earlier, there are just simply time and places where having more mastery than the base possible amount is useful and it's not a complete waste of stats.

    I'm fairly sure I was tremendously undergeared for heroic grand empress25 - even when we were attempting her during progression I think everyone's ilvl was roughly 500 and my little dude was 496 and dps specced to boot.

    And yes, crit seems to be the highest dps secondary (the only one, in fact). That it happens to generate more elusive brew as a byproduct is a small bonus in my view.
    Youuu might want to reword that.

  11. #2291
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    (as an aside, are there basically no tanking 25H brewmasters? I ranked top 100 every single fight I was in apparently this week).
    I run H 25m but only 7/16 so far though that does include Lei Shi, ranked on every one but some have fallen off from gear being pretty stagnant outside of VP updates. Hoping to push that along a bit more before 5.2 but the announcement has peeps a bit unfocused on if they want to down new bosses vs farm gear for 5.2 (I wanna down moar bosses!).

    Doubt I'll stack any mastery on purpose for T14 ever and instead will continue to stack Stam if I feel EH is an issue for any fight. Also don't agree with your view on Crit and see it as a mitigation stat first with resulting DPS as a bonus (especially with tighter enrage timer bosses).

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  12. #2292
    Yep there are few brewmasters on 25m HC I ranked on pretty much everyfight as well (16/16hc), but keep in mind that some guild keep their logs private, some until they clear the last boss others just keep them private forever!!

    As far as crit vs mastery, even for cutting edge progression guilds where they're undergeared on t15 crit will be a clear winner when you get the tier bonus since if you can keep elusive brew stacking quickly you'll gain 12% extra staggered dmg (same as 12% mastery), it will require huge amounts of crit, to get to a point where you'll have a high uptime of the buff while you're tanking but we'll see. If some math genius could make some math to see aproximatly how much crit/haste you'd need to have 9 stacks every 9 seconds would be awesome. It might something to aim for if it's reachable

    For 10man vs 25man, usually what i see people doing is on 10man going full agi on echants and food, and on 25man hc for stamina enchants, food and trinkets. that's how blizzard design the fights on 10man boss's hit for less and the tank dps is more important than on 25man. I don't think it's really comparable 10vs25man and I also don't think one is easier than the other. I just think they're completly diferent fights and should award different achievements.
    Last edited by Takerpt; 2013-02-14 at 10:50 PM.

  13. #2293
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Takerpt View Post
    If some math genius could make some math to see aproximatly how much crit/haste you'd need to have 9 stacks every 9 seconds would be awesome. It might something to aim for if it's reachable
    It's not that hard. Think Surreal has even asked me it before in another thread. It's roughly 75% crit you'd need. That number is problematic however because of the crit cap on the combat table. Unless they have changed it, and I haven't seen any good data showing that they have, with just the 7.5/7.5 caps the crit cap is 70%. You can push that up to 77.50% if you go hard cap on exp, or push it down if you don't take the 7.5/7.5 numbers. That amount of crit is not realistic next tier. 50% however could be possible with raid buffs if you stack crit extensively.

  14. #2294
    Pandaren Monk Hinalover's Avatar
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    Mist did change the Crit reduction on bosses. Bosses have a 4.5% Melee Crit Reduction (1.5% Crit Reduction per level over the character [1.5% verses 91; 3% verses 92; 4.5% verses 93/Boss])

  15. #2295
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post

    The problem with avoidance tanks that is you can't really predict your burst periods. Furthermore, I'm not the only one that's taking damage, and I'm usually topped within <1 sec whenever I do. It's really hard to say whether chi wave would've healed me or not. Sometimes I sit fine at 3 adds with my cds running, sometimes I get demolished by 2. /shrug. I'm sure I'll get a better feel for chi wave as I continue, but at that point, mastery would have *definitely* saved my life for another ~2 seconds, while haste would *maybe* have done so dependent upon me actually using the right ability.



    No worries, I'm just as critical of my play as anyone else. Here's some more background: a.) yeah, this was an alt. I usually run with an alt group. I didn't even know I was going to tank anything on Tuesday until I logged on like 10 min before raid time, so no preparation at all. Thus, the shoddy crit stacking. b.) 489 Garajal offhand. I decided it wasn't worth dancing steel.

    Anyway, the shuffle I mentioned earlier - I was alive for roughly 75% of the wipe and I had shuffle up 73% of the time. I'm also not a huge fan of guard spam. I try to use guard if and only if I know damage is incoming and I have no other cds available. If I use it any other time, all it does is make the healers overheal. Here's an example of what I would consider fair guard usage from me.



    You stack mastery/stamina for EH, and EH is for those times when tanks keep dying. I'm sure every raid at some point or another had issues with tank deaths, which EH can help mitigate. Blindly going for the max damage avoidance builds sounds equally as silly as advising full mastery builds - each has their place and situation where they shine.



    I wouldn't be. I converse with a fair number of "top players" and I'm an engineer as well from a top college as well, and I don't feel as if I'm particularly any smarter or dumber than they are.



    Their progression is also ridiculously short. All you need is a job that allows you a month or two of vacation time a year and you're set. After progression is over - like 3 weeks per tier, I'm sure they spend less time in the instance than 90% of raiders, who for whatever reason, feel better that they're doing 10-15 hour raid weeks while BL clears it all in 5.

    I dunno man either you're just bad or you haven't learned how to play monk yet

    I did empress hc with ~5-8 less ilvl than you and had no problems what so ever surviving the adds dps with full haste gems.

    It's either that or mastery sucks - which is something I've been saying all along (Would explain the flat out mastery buff in 5.2? )


    I'm sorry but you're wrong and I really hope nobody listens to you. You have even gone for Chi Brew which is plain and simple terrible for BM monks - pretty much just as bad as mastery is.

    Not saying this to be mean but sometimes the truth hurts, sorry.


    Edit:
    I mean I understand that everyone may not spend as much time as others in this game and theorycraft as much as it's needed to be in the top ranks but please don't recommend some sub-optimal gemming for someone who doesn't know better. If you like going to bad stats thats your way of rolling but you shouldn't let it carry out on others. Let them go for the best possibly theorycrafting stats and learn from there.
    Last edited by Larrabee; 2013-02-14 at 11:56 PM.
    Monk tank in <Liquicity>, a Swedish 10m guild on Neptulon-EU 16/16 HC

  16. #2296
    Even not being possible to reach "crit cap" for 9 elusive brew stacks every 9 seconds since rarely you have fights where you tank 100% of the time you have time to build up elusive brew stacks, and even with "low crit" compared to 70% value I sometimes get that 9 stacks right after a 9 seconds elusive brew, but even if you can't keep the buff 100% of the time (the 12% extra stagger) you may be able to have 100% of elusive brew OR 12% extra stagger, delaying the elusive brew until the buff expires having a avoidance/mitigation rotation and that may be something easier to get and to aim for.

    something like this you have 12 stacks of elusive brew when you taunt, use it and you get 12sec of increased dodge and then 12sec of increased stagger amount, after that 24seconds are finished you most likely will have a high amount of EB stacks to use again. and in most fights you never tank much more than that before a cross taunt. so until I test it properly (been in ptr but without weakauras to track that buff) I think that crit will still be the stat to go after you reach your haste "soft spot"

    another thing to test (I can't atm because i'm not at home) is to see if the buff you get from tier bonus "stacks" for instance you get 15stacks EB when it expires you get 15 sec's of 12% extra stagger amount, if you use 3 stacks EB right when the 15 secs EB end's when the 3 sec's EB ends what happens? your 12% extra stagger amount gets replaced by a lower duration 3 sec's one or its duration is extended? or neither and works like "a more powerful spell it's already in use" and it just ignores the 3 sec's EB buff
    Last edited by Takerpt; 2013-02-15 at 12:07 AM.

  17. #2297
    Quote Originally Posted by Takerpt View Post
    asd etc

    I think that crit will still be the stat to go after you reach your haste "soft spot"
    Crit is guaranteed the way to go on PTR

    I've been going all out haste in 5.1 and it's worked wonderful, never had any survivability issues but crit definitely is the way to go in 5.2 seeing as our chi wave (I mean really, who picks anything else? the others just suck) heals for incredibly amounts but no longer costs chi.

    Edit: After todays PTR (and earlier) I had a pretty sick uptime of elusive brew yet keeping shuffle up + PB whenever needed. Crit is the way to go in 5.2!
    Last edited by Larrabee; 2013-02-15 at 12:18 AM.
    Monk tank in <Liquicity>, a Swedish 10m guild on Neptulon-EU 16/16 HC

  18. #2298
    with the free purify and chi cost gone from lvl 30 talents they'r trying to make haste less apealing for brewmasters they said something that they rly didn't like tanks stacking haste (more for pallys) but it seems they don't like it on brewmasters aswell

  19. #2299
    Quote Originally Posted by Larrabee View Post
    I dunno man either you're just bad or you haven't learned how to play monk yet

    I did empress hc with ~5-8 less ilvl than you and had no problems what so ever surviving the adds dps with full haste gems.

    It's either that or mastery sucks - which is something I've been saying all along (Would explain the flat out mastery buff in 5.2? )
    You killed Grand Empress three weeks after the first kills (two weeks after us, which I said we had an ilvl of around 500ish) and claim that you had an ilvl of roughly ~490? Somehow I doubt that. You also mentioned you were tanking the reavers & an occassional windblade in 10m, which is completely different from tanking 3 windblades in 25m.

    I do believe you are completely misinterpreting the situation as well. I was NOT mastery/stam specced at the point of death. I was in fact completely specced away from mastery/stam, which I further imply that if I had some more of those stats, I would probably not have died. After changing some reforges, enchants, and a couple gems around to provide more mastery/stam, I went back yesterday and killed her with no issues.

    I'm sorry but you're wrong and I really hope nobody listens to you. You have even gone for Chi Brew which is plain and simple terrible for BM monks - pretty much just as bad as mastery is.
    Really? I'd love to hear your reasoning on why chi brew isn't as good as ascension or power strikes. Please, enlighten me.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-02-15 at 12:29 AM.

  20. #2300
    Quote Originally Posted by Takerpt View Post
    with the free purify and chi cost gone from lvl 30 talents they'r trying to make haste less apealing for brewmasters they said something that they rly didn't like tanks stacking haste (more for pallys) but it seems they don't like it on brewmasters aswell
    but its a setbonus. If thye really dont want us to go so much less for haste it would be a passiv.
    Last edited by Asmalya; 2013-02-15 at 12:32 AM.

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