1. #3821
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Other than a small fraction of crit's dps, what else does haste bring to the table? I assert that mastery is real-world dps increase over haste.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Haste is also about 1/3 as effective as crit at EB. Why don't people just replace "300 haste" in their heads with "100 crit".
    It will take between 6 and 8% haste to increase your dps by 1% just from going over some of my logs. But my post from earlier I think still makes haste more important than mastery.

    It's what...960 points of mastery for 1% at this point? Vs 425 for 1% haste. I don't even see that as a comparison.

  2. #3822
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    It will take between 6 and 8% haste to increase your dps by 1% just from going over some of my logs. But my post from earlier I think still makes haste more important than mastery.

    It's what...960 points of mastery for 1% at this point? Vs 425 for 1% haste. I don't even see that as a comparison.
    I mean, obviously I can't disagree with formulations that haste, on paper, is more dps than mastery. Haste has -some- value while mastery has 0, in theory. That much is obvious. I'm saying that we get tossed in to situations where more mastery allows us to play more aggressively because mastery curbstomps haste in terms of survival, so having 5k more haste might increase your theoretical dps by 1.5%, but having 5k more mastery allows you to eg. comfortably use a breath of fire when otherwise you'd be tempted to purify a red stagger, and little opportunities like that add up over the course of the fight to something significantly more than 1.5% dps.

    I don't have mathematical support, because there is none. What I do have is the experience of playing in a top end guild and pushing the boundaries of what a tank is able to do. Any model, even as accurate (or inaccurate as it may be) as simcraft will only show what a computer playing a character would perfectly do, and it's my contention that maybe ten players of each spec, worldwide, even approach 90% of a "perfect" rotation. In my judgment, you'd only have to execute at maybe 50-60% to rank at all, or only about 80% to rank #1. It's quite obvious to me, at least, that stats which allow you to more comfortably and consistently play your class are worth far, far more than min/maxing that last 1% of stats on your gear and saying that "yep, I'm good enough to handle this." Because you are not. I'm not. No one is. Everyone is prone to panic and mistakes; everyone will screw up their priority. I probably spend a good few percentages of each fight energy capped - not ideal, duh. I often delay keg smash for a jab. Wrong move there, retard - self. You know how many times I failed to get a keg smash off on a wave of ball lightnings for my Lei Shen parse? Four. Yeah, 4 out of 11 times the ball lightning spawned, I didn't even use one of my highest damaging aoe abilities. Am I still higher on that fight than the next highest player in the West by 20k? sure am.

    Doing the most damage isn't a matter of what your optimum gear allows you to do, but rather a function of how much you will screw up multiplied by your gear, and mark me, you WILL screw up. So full crit ahead with all excess stats shunted towards haste might gain you a theoretical 1-2% damage but if you mess up even 5% more, then you've lost all your advantages and more besides, and a single panic situation is easily enough to lose you that 5%. I've dabbled with full crit, I've played full mastery more than probably anyone in the world, I've reforged excess stats to haste and mastery, and the ultimate conclusion I've come down to is - haste is garbage in any situation. 10n, 10h, 25n, 25h, LFR, challenge mode, soloing, scenarios, etc. etc.

    I currently roll with ~11k mastery, which actually costs me somewhere in the realm of 4-5k crit even. And yet, my results speak for themselves. Can you come up with a better reason for why my gear, which is roughly 8-9% below "optimum dps stats", allows me these numbers?



    I am a failure at tank damage. I absolutely miss chances to increase my damage. I incorrectly avoid the wrong mechanics, and incorrectly get hit by ones that I shouldn't. I don't always move the correct bosses in for cleave, and I most certainly don't optimally position mobs all the time. I fully admit that I fail over and over again as a tank. But that is immaterial as no one is perfect, and it seems that everyone else fails just as much if not more. Reducing the number of player fails will affect your damage far more than any gear optimization - this I can guarantee.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-06-18 at 12:14 AM.

  3. #3823
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    I currently roll with ~11k mastery, which actually costs me somewhere in the realm of 4-5k crit even. And yet, my results speak for themselves. Can you come up with a better reason for why my gear, which is roughly 8-9% below "optimum dps stats", allows me these numbers?
    Now, I just looked at one fight in particular...

    If optimum stats means tanking the boss for most or all of the fight and abusing vengeance, sure.

    LeiShen - You took 66m~ (melee) damage whereas your warrior tank took 9m~

    I totally understand where you are coming from that, in comparison to a warrior tank, monks do way more damage with ridiculously high vengeance however; most guilds aren't like that. I know that my guild isn't like that. Nobody in my guild really appreciates the "scumbag" mentality of DPS, tanks or healers where someone is pimping their numbers.

    I realize that in the top 20~ guilds or whatever that you do absolutely whatever you can to min-max and benefit the raid as much as possible but in more semi-hardcore (though we've only been raiding 2 days for 3hrs if that for the past 8 weeks~ so don't even think we deserve to be called that anymore) raiding guilds, you tend to play it more safe and you don't make other players doing the same job as you feel like they're there just to support you. A raiding guild is supposed to be a collaboration between 10 or 25 people where they support each other in killing bosses while having fun.

    It's totally unfair to say that people who aren't in place #1 aren't pulling even 80% of their capacity, whereas you can use extreme tactics to inflate your numbers just because you have an unfair advantage over them, and manage to place #1. Sure I may not play at 100% of the theoretical maximum as played by a simulator however I believe that many people do play to the best of their ability, within marginal error of the simulations and won't be recognized because they don't essentially solo-tank bosses for truck loads of vengeance.

    Those logs don't show that you're particularly good in any way, except that your healers are willing to heal you through a truck load of damage while essentially solo-tanking encounters.

    Iron Qon is generally solo-tanked by a wide range of people, but I don't see you placing top there (granted that you're 12th), I wonder why...
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  4. #3824
    I assure you, the top ranks of every fight are more or less completely dominated by players cheesing damage. My contention is that mastery makes you a better damage cheeser, if you call that cheesing. After all, that boss is going to be hitting someone, does it make that much of a difference whether it's hitting one tank or the other?

    I'd have solo-tanked LS but for the fact that the warrior alt (we run two raids, half mains/half alts) needed gear - which as far as I'm concerned is a further handicap. A lot of the top ranks are made by fully solo-tanking, I lose a (small) percentage of vengeance to the second tank. Fair is fair - in the other run where the other tank is playing his main, I'm his debuff bitch as well

    As for the 80% capacity thing? I totally stand by it. I don't just play a tank; throughout the expansions I've been a warlock, hunter, mage, rogue, druid (all 4 specs), paladin, and monk. I've ranked #1 dozens of times, and if I was honest with myself and reviewed my videos, I'd be able to nitpick an error every few seconds.

    As for Iron Qon (I'm 6th there btw, duplicates & Asian monks), my theory is that our kill timings doesn't align well with cds, or that I haven't figured out the best way to game impale damage (the #1 guy didn't use hand of protection once to reset his impale stacks, whereas I did twice, for example). That's something for me to work on, but doesn't detract from my overall statement, now does it? If my mastery were high enough to enable to me to comfortably never reset impale, then I probably would've done more damage. If you want to compare another fight that's essentially uncheesable, look at Jin-rokh where I actually managed to tank less than my partner tank due to inopportune aggro pulls (*grumble*).
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-06-18 at 12:50 AM.

  5. #3825
    I can agree that generally people in the top several places "cheese" encounters however; I greatly disagree with you on people that aren't in the top few (or may even just miss out on ranks) aren't even playing 80% of their potential, due to the cheesing. Like I said, sure you can argue that cheesing is the way to go according to the meters but it doesn't actually make you any better, and if you cheese it doesn't properly translate how good you are.

    Again you could say that cheesing can be part of the idea that makes you good (managing cheesing with the normal spiel) but not all guilds can allow you to cheese or even want you to cheese and you may not have the gear to do it.

    If you can "cheese" freely then fine, believe that it makes you a good or better player than someone who for whatever circumstances can't, when you may actually not be.

    I've played WoW for 7 years, played a Warlock, Shaman, Druid as main characters and have leveled all other classes to at least 85 and spent a fair amount of time on them, so I can understand where you're coming from that you could have done this or that better and I've played in a variety of guilds and with a variety of people with different skill levels.

    For sure, there are really, really bad players out there and the trend is that if you do really, really well that you'll be in the top few ranked, but then "cheesing" throws that out of balance. I've played my 500ilevel~ warlock in LFR and beaten a 525ilevel~ warlock in a pure damage fight, both of us as destruction and I wasn't cheesing just focusing on DPS. Now that guy was purely bad and where i'm not claiming that i'm amazing at warlock (i'm not for sure!) it's just that I think the average player is *better* (taking out the extremes, so 70-80%~ and the people who put 0 effort in and randomly mash keys) than you might think but the good guys that do actually work hard, are hitting that 80%+ of their potential, I'd go as far to say that most people who are enthusiastic about improving themselves without necessarily cheesing more dps from encounters are hitting 95%+.
    Last edited by Yohassakura; 2013-06-18 at 01:36 AM.
    Kuroiwolf - 90 Brewmaster Monk
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  6. #3826
    Epic! Radio's Avatar
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    We've had heroic Ji-Kun on farm for a while now, but our farms are almost always a little dicey, this week was special though:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...FD7L8bI#t=423s

    My guild was reminded why monks are the master race.

  7. #3827
    @the dps thing. Doesn't WoL count stagger damage as stagger done BY you therefore increasing your dps? No wonder mastery is incorrectly inflating your dps daught

  8. #3828
    I'm probably doing it wrong, been reading the topic back and I wonder why some monks say haste is totally useless, I'll be honest, we aren't doing any bleeding edge content and I'm not the best tank of the world(neither our healers are the best out there) but I just can't play well enough without 4+k haste at least, I find myself chi starved and with stagger falling off. I also noticed lately that my stagger sometimes falls off more often than I'd like, I'll try and post a log tomorrow after our lei shen tries(damn 19% wipe due to wrong tactics...switching at 25 stacks is so wrong XD) but I feel I either have to purify too often or I just do something wrong because I don't see myself able to sustain stagger without 4k+ haste.I don't have 4 pieces of the tier, stuck at 3, and I was even considering going upwards of 5-6k haste since I just can't find the chi.

    For the record i don't ever breath of fire since it's really rare that I need to use it since I like to purify a bit more, and I also feel fine on my purifies/staggers, maybe I'm a bit undergeared or just failing at something? Noteworthy fights where I found my stagger uptime to be lacking are the harder hitting ones for me like durumu jikun, iron qon, and now lei shen.

    I never died in these fights and the healers feel I'm totally fine and even better than other tanks but I'm worried I'm failing at something I can't grasp.Currently running RoRo LFR with crit build with mastery as the lowest stat.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...uyuki/advanced current equip. I'm also considering for our upcoming heroics to gear more for mastery in 10 mans, not sure if for jin'rokh and ji-kun if I need to do that though.

  9. #3829
    So i just joined my old raid team, and it looks like im up against heroic horridon tomorrow. I havent raided seriously" in about 2-3months, so my gear is only 511 ilvl, allthough i do have my 2set bonus of t15. My guildies told me horror stories about the tank damage in the fight, so im a little concerned. So if anyone has any tips for him, would be greatly appreciated. I will most likely be tanking the 1st and 3rd door.

    Thanks.

  10. #3830
    Epic! Radio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ergar View Post
    So i just joined my old raid team, and it looks like im up against heroic horridon tomorrow. I havent raided seriously" in about 2-3months, so my gear is only 511 ilvl, allthough i do have my 2set bonus of t15. My guildies told me horror stories about the tank damage in the fight, so im a little concerned.

    Thanks.
    You generally want some form of external / self cooldown up at all times while tanking him in the final enrage phase. Having an armour potion around works wonders at lower gear levels too, 25 seconds of a very nice amount of physical damage reduction (not sure of the exact percentage, but I definitely can tell that it works very well). Don't pile up everything at once, just make sure you have 1-2 things up at a time at most times. The healers have to also be ready to heal the damage, it will be high, but tanks are the only people they have to worry about healing during that phase (dire call only hits non tanks once per minute or so).

    As for add tanking, 3rd and 4th door do hurt quite a bit but good usage of Ring of Peace, and having appropriate DPS on the right adds should make the damage manageable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Neviskio View Post
    I'm probably doing it wrong, been reading the topic back and I wonder why some monks say haste is totally useless, I'll be honest, we aren't doing any bleeding edge content and I'm not the best tank of the world(neither our healers are the best out there) but I just can't play well enough without 4+k haste at least, I find myself chi starved and with stagger falling off. I also noticed lately that my stagger sometimes falls off more often than I'd like, I'll try and post a log tomorrow after our lei shen tries(damn 19% wipe due to wrong tactics...switching at 25 stacks is so wrong XD) but I feel I either have to purify too often or I just do something wrong because I don't see myself able to sustain stagger without 4k+ haste.I don't have 4 pieces of the tier, stuck at 3, and I was even considering going upwards of 5-6k haste since I just can't find the chi.

    For the record i don't ever breath of fire since it's really rare that I need to use it since I like to purify a bit more, and I also feel fine on my purifies/staggers, maybe I'm a bit undergeared or just failing at something? Noteworthy fights where I found my stagger uptime to be lacking are the harder hitting ones for me like durumu jikun, iron qon, and now lei shen.

    I never died in these fights and the healers feel I'm totally fine and even better than other tanks but I'm worried I'm failing at something I can't grasp.Currently running RoRo LFR with crit build with mastery as the lowest stat.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...uyuki/advanced current equip. I'm also considering for our upcoming heroics to gear more for mastery in 10 mans, not sure if for jin'rokh and ji-kun if I need to do that though.
    Do you have the T15 4 set? It helps a shitload for having more chi to play with while still purifying. If you don't, then you will basically have to balance your purify usage with your haste, some monks purify way too often (work it out to however you and your healers are comfortable).
    Last edited by Radio; 2013-06-18 at 02:23 AM.

  11. #3831
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    It will take between 6 and 8% haste to increase your dps by 1% just from going over some of my logs. But my post from earlier I think still makes haste more important than mastery.

    It's what...960 points of mastery for 1% at this point? Vs 425 for 1% haste. I don't even see that as a comparison.
    Yeah, but you start with 0 haste, compared to stagger where you start at 46.25% from stance + shuffle + base mastery. (45% before 5.1.)

    I think Blizzard balanced the mastery rating conversion around damage reduction compared to baseline, not the stagger% itself. You start at 53.75% damage taken, so a swing for 186,046 damage will hit for 100k at 0 mastery. At 960 rating, you now only take 52.75%, so 98139 damage. So what would have been a 100k hit at 0 rating has been reduced by 1861 -- 1.86% DR. This is entirely linear, so 9600 rating would cut that same hit to 81395 damage for 18.6% DR.

    Looking at it this way, it's exactly 516 rating for 1% DR. This is why it's only 51600 mastery for 100% stagger and not 96000. That's a lot closer to the 400-500 ballpark that the other stats are in. (This is also why FB is so great; it's 20% stagger, so 19200 rating, so 37% stagger-DR, which combines with the 20% real DR for pretty much exactly 50% total. The T15 2pc is a stupidly-broken 22% DR on a 6s cooldown.)

  12. #3832
    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    Do you have the T15 4 set? It helps a shitload for having more chi to play with while still purifying. If you don't, then you will basically have to balance your purify usage with your haste, some monks purify way too often (work it out to however you and your healers are comfortable).
    Sadly no, missing the fourth piece, normal for us dropped 2 weeks in a row only pala/priest/lock pieces.All of the bosses...Coined tonight the head tho.

    I usually purify ONLY IF I get red stagger or a 50+% yellow one, might be that I'm energy capping sometimes since I'm also raidleading(have to basic call everything or someone dies) so most of the times I'm checking on the boss + bigwigs+ who's screwing up on a void zone to call them out, organizing all the cds, I definitely feel I'm doing something wrong if people think haste is useless I basically would want more right now xD

  13. #3833
    Quote Originally Posted by Redsparowe View Post
    @the dps thing. Doesn't WoL count stagger damage as stagger done BY you therefore increasing your dps? No wonder mastery is incorrectly inflating your dps daught
    It does on your damage readout, but you'll notice that it's not counted as overall dps (WoL is weird /shrug), and is not apart of your dps(e) which counts for ranking.

    I'm probably doing it wrong, been reading the topic back and I wonder why some monks say haste is totally useless, I'll be honest, we aren't doing any bleeding edge content and I'm not the best tank of the world(neither our healers are the best out there) but I just can't play well enough without 4+k haste at least, I find myself chi starved and with stagger falling off.
    Lack of chi can be attributed to either low chi generation or high chi usage. Make sure you're not energy capping too much, and using keg smash more or less on cd, that's about it for chi gen, but as for chi usage, also make sure you aren't going purify happy and you're not using guard on cd, that's one of the biggest brm sins.

    So i just joined my old raid team, and it looks like im up against heroic horridon tomorrow. I havent raided seriously" in about 2-3months, so my gear is only 511 ilvl, allthough i do have my 2set bonus of t15. My guildies told me horror stories about the tank damage in the fight, so im a little concerned. So if anyone has any tips for him, would be greatly appreciated. I will most likely be tanking the 1st and 3rd door.
    Tank damage is somewhat trivial until after you kill War-God Jalak. Then it's just chain cooldowns until either the raid or the boss dies.

  14. #3834
    High Overlord Dirtdogs's Avatar
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    >< I want a 600 back then Id rank higher than 4 on durumu 10H
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/pmx8ldfwm38yt3d1/

  15. #3835
    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    Do you have 2p tier? You will be squishier when it procs, which is why 2p helps make up for some of that. However on 10m? Probably not that big of a deal tbh.
    I do have 2pc but not the 4pc.
    Beside 2 hm bosses i do mostly normals, when i've time to raid.

    I guess i'll go with regular massive Crit reforge, RoRo and piss even more my friends DPSers.

  16. #3836
    See that's what makes the world of difference, youre a almost fully BiS geared tank in a half main/ half alt raid. Meaning Your kills are quite a bit longer than if you were full mains. That has a big impact on the dps you can push out. I'd love to rank on a lot of these fights since i cheese the dmg taken regardless, but we still do full main runs. This along with the fact that i tank along side a pala so either of us being the debuff bitch is very little gain/loss.

    In our alt runs sure, i play a guardian druid so i let the pala whore the vengeance and i just take debuffs, and thus he ranks higher than he normally would have.

    The point is, your rankings really mean jack. You are comparing yourself to other players in the world to the degree of how much they've optimized their raid to let them do higher dps. Now I'm not saying skill isn't an obvious factor is moderating the increased dmg taken, but at some pont it'll come down to how much total raid dps there is, and how many healers youre taking.

    You mention mastery allows you to play aggressively. I assure you, in a 10m H, i can play PLENTY aggressively with sub 2k mastery. Most of the time, when im at full hp, ill just take an attack or 2 sitting down, and then unload the chi. Then building to about 4/5 chi again, sit down and unload chi again, stopping when shit gets serious on the raid healing side (as you know, no dedicated tank healers). There are obviously other ways to cheese the vengeance, but this is the most fun one and controllable one, the others are kinda baaseline and just compliment this one. Shame its gone in 5.4.

    Anyway, I'm not going to disagree, mastery lets use play more aggressively with less worry about death, but as it is ow, i pretty much have the sequence of most bosses memorized. If i ever do go mastery it'll be because a boss in 5.4 hits like ra-den/horridon enraged. Everything is pretty easily handleable

  17. #3837
    Epic! Radio's Avatar
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    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...radio/advanced

    dat cloak :3

    The health boost compared to a 522 is worth it alone, and then you add the gains in armour, mastery, crit and agi... can't wait to try this out.

  18. #3838
    Hello there,

    My monk is my main alt you could say, don't really play my other ones but I want to really gear this baby up and have him as a back-up tank for our guild. My main is a Blood DK.

    And I'm all about min/maxing so I'd like you guys to critique my brewmaster (who is still gearing up)

    I'm on 5k haste with Ascencion, my energy regen feels good at this point. Hit-capped, exp hard-capped.

    I'm curious what you guys think of my gemming, I wouldn't really gem stamina or enchant for it but at entry level it seems like the right choice as I've been told and read countless times how gear dependant brewmasters really are.

    I'll shut up now, any advice is welcome.

    Here's my armory - http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Xinji/advanced
    The dragons' flame sealed my fate. The world of the living can no longer comfort me.

  19. #3839
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    I'm not sure why mastery is so hotly debated still when it seems to be as much a personal/situational choice as haste is. From working "behind the curve" 25m H I've mostly run with a Crit > build but noticed that tank damage has huge swings depending on the fight.

    - Jin: Only died derp'ing into lighting balls after he started melee'ing again. Can't see mastery as needed here.
    - Horridon: Don't stand in stuff. Tank damage is insane after Jalak dies so good CD rotation and lots of healer love is key. Mastery has need but only for last phase.
    - Tortos: Tanking bats mastery would definitely be helpful and veng should fuel any loss in crit. I kite bats but still have a top 200 rank... lol.
    - Ji-Kun: Interesting tank damage, hits really hard when he actually melee's but it's so sporadic. Can easily kill a tank by dropping them to 50% right before Talon Rake but our CD kit is so strong it's not really an issue. Stacking mastery should be a non-issue as nest/add management is the whole fight.
    - Meg: CD's should cover breath damage but boss hits pretty fast and furious especially as Green gets stacks. Started stacking mastery during progression on this fight and while I wasn't dying healers felt it took some strain off them on a really healing intense fight.
    - IQ: Really disappointing fight P1-P3 are yawn fests then it turns into a cluster with all 4 bosses up. CD management seems more important at that point more than any gearing choice.

    That is as far as I've gotten will probably stick to current gearing set so long as I'm using RoRo. Might reconsider once I get H Bad Juju.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-18 at 10:24 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellkung View Post
    I'm curious what you guys think of my gemming, I wouldn't really gem stamina or enchant for it but at entry level it seems like the right choice as I've been told and read countless times how gear dependant brewmasters really are.
    AMR is pretty solid for BrM over all just adjust the haste caps, I assume your comfortable with 5k so that is what I used:
    http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/eu/hellscream/xinji

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  20. #3840
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    - IQ: Really disappointing fight P1-P3 are yawn fests then it turns into a cluster with all 4 bosses up. CD management seems more important at that point more than any gearing choice.

    That is as far as I've gotten will probably stick to current gearing set so long as I'm using RoRo. Might reconsider once I get H Bad Juju.
    That's the only reason I'm not using my normal RoRo, got H Bad Juju. Which isn't bad since I'm Crit and Mastery. And IQ is an AMAZING fight imo. I love it, we 2 tank it, but it's essentially me solo tanking it though lol.

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