1. #5701
    Thankyou for the advice! Is there an optimal rotation (again totally cluless about monk mechanics so you might have to educate me a bit) for a off tank BM monk opener where he can start building his stacks of shuffle without using his hardest hitting abilities right off the bat?? I faintly recall something about blackout kick but again I'm just pulling this from my you know what because I honestly know nothing about monks other than some basic stuff.

  2. #5702
    If you're not familiar with BrM, the first post on this thread will give you all the info you could want about BrM. You should read it instead of asking us to basically quote it for you. I'd also recommend that you give this thread a read: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...cs-of-survival.

    A quick rundown of the answer you're looking for:

    Blackout Kick requires 2 Chi and adds 6 seconds to your Shuffle buff. Shuffle increases your parry by 20% and your Stagger by 20%. Stagger is also increased by mastery. Basically, a percentage of the physical damage the BrM takes (which is the percent of the BrM's Stagger) is converted to a DoT on the BrM. At any time, the BrM can use Purifying Brew to remove that DoT, effectively negating any remaining damage on the DoT. Purifying Brew takes 1 Chi, so it can't be spammed for very long. Each time you use Blackout Kick, you gain an additional 6 seconds of Shuffle. The maximum time on Shuffle is above 5 minutes (That's as high as I've ever gotten it). Not sure if it's capped at all.

    The first objective of every BrM is to keep up Shuffle at all times. Without Shuffle, a BrM is about as good as a WW at tanking.

    Blackout Kick requires 2 Chi. To build Chi, you can use: Jab, Keg Smash, Expel Harm, and SCK/RJW on 3 or more adds. If your tank is speced for Chi Brew, that also gives Chi, but Ascension is generally better than Chi Brew for most fights. Expel Harm is of little use if you're not taking damage and with no vengeance. On Siegecrafter, SCK/RJW is of no use since it generates no chi while the mines aren't out. That leaves Keg Smash and Jab. For the opener as the offtank, you can start with Jab+Jab+BoK if your MT isn't able to hold threat. Keg Smash does a lot of damage and can easily pull threat with a crit. Just have your BrM open with a couple Jabs and BoK before he gets into his full rotation.

    If he insists on using his full damage rotation off the start, you could consider letting him tank first. That fixes the whole issue without having him change up his starting rotation.

    Not sure why this has been discussed as much as it has. Regardless of the specs of your tanks, if you're a tank pulling aggro off the other tank at an inopportune time, you have three options:
    1. Have the tank that you don't want tanking to reduce his threat.
    2. Have the tank you DO want tanking to increase his threat.
    3. A combination of the above two options.

    Unless you're bumping up against the enrage timer, option one is by far the easiest option.
    Last edited by Jocias; 2014-07-20 at 11:34 PM.

  3. #5703
    Thank you for giving me the rundown. I'll admit I only skimmed the initial post because I think a lot of it only comes into understanding/context if you have that toon available and can put what the guide is saying to use.

    So what you just wrote was very helpful, I appreciate you taking the time to sum that up for me. The reason I have been tanking first is because while on his DK he does have a difficult time even at his high ilvl he had trouble killing the add with only 3 stacks where I was able to. Him attempting it on his monk was just to see if he could do it since its the toon he would rather be playing on for our progression. So unless we changed our entire strat or the method we first used on our kill I'm not sure it would be worth having him take the boss first- but it is definitely something to consider. I'll try to look into what exactly he was opening with and see if he can give what you suggested a try

    Thank you again

  4. #5704
    Brewmasters,

    I have question for you. I mainly play a healer so I'm not as well versed with tanking or even dpsing at high level. So here is my question.

    Auto attacks. When they crit, they generate elusive brew stacks for you. I'm wondering if abilities like keg smash, jab, tiger palm and others interrupt autoattacks or prevent them from happening. If I wanted to generate more stacks, should i ever stop and let autoattacks happen without pressing jab and such(doesn't seem right..)? Or do they happen automatically. I'm asking cause I went to isle of giants yesterday to try and pull like 7 dinos at the same time and trying to survive. It went pretty well, but sometimes I ended up having like 5 stacks of EB after 10 seconds of brew. Other times, I'd have them coming in like crazy. So I wonder if it is pure rng or is there a way to speed up the process of obtaining stacks.

  5. #5705
    Legendary! Gallahadd's Avatar
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    Auto attacks are just that, automatic. No ability in the brewmasters single target kit will stop your EB from stacking. The only ability you'll regularly be using which DOES is Spinning Crane kick, which is why a lot of people say Rushing Jade Wind is the "Safer" option.

    As for your Isle of Giants fun, RNG is a motherfucker .
    Reading A Song of Ice and Fire is like playing with an adorable puppy, then someone comes up out of nowhere, shoots the puppy and punches you in the face.

    Stands in front of 100 enemies with 10% health left "Myeh, I'll save my potions for when I REALLY need them." - every rpg player ever.

  6. #5706
    Quote Originally Posted by Gallahadd View Post
    Auto attacks are just that, automatic. No ability in the brewmasters single target kit will stop your EB from stacking. The only ability you'll regularly be using which DOES is Spinning Crane kick, which is why a lot of people say Rushing Jade Wind is the "Safer" option.

    As for your Isle of Giants fun, RNG is a motherfucker .

    Great. thank you!

    I'll go there today and see how long I can survive Oondasta Between HWF Rook's trinket, guard, zen med, fort and diffuse magic, there should be a rotation to keep me up for a while.

  7. #5707
    This has probably been answered a million times before, but I was curious as to what the consensus was on amp trinkets. I've got a normal Thok's Tail Tip and a heroic Prismatic Prison of Pride. I usually run with a warforged TED and normal Haromm's and was wondering if an amp trinket would be better to use. If it helps any, my armory is en/character/zuljin/Tameiki/advanced.

  8. #5708
    Quote Originally Posted by Tameiki View Post
    This has probably been answered a million times before, but I was curious as to what the consensus was on amp trinkets. I've got a normal Thok's Tail Tip and a heroic Prismatic Prison of Pride. I usually run with a warforged TED and normal Haromm's and was wondering if an amp trinket would be better to use. If it helps any, my armory is en/character/zuljin/Tameiki/advanced.
    Highest amp + Haromm's is the most damage. If you care about mitigation TED is a lot better than another amp trinket.
    Brewmaster, Windwalker, and Mistweaver enthusiast and theorycrafter.

  9. #5709
    Thanks for the quick reply, I'll have to give it a shot.

  10. #5710
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Not by a long shot, a loooooong shot.

    I tank with a guy who's a superb tank, amazing skill and better geared then me, but if the RNG Gods align and grant me an amazing load of critical strikes, he'll be unable to hold off me without a taunt or two.

    It's just how Brewmasters work. Our threat is fine, but within a few seconds we can snap a boss onto us when we get lucky.
    Not against Warriors. Shield Slam crits are some of the hardest hitting abilities in the game on the last few bosses in SoO and it's only on a 6s CD with regular procs resetting that. Warriors are top DPS atm and Monks are last and that is where threat is tied. No idea how this guy is getting threat ripped from him even after a stack on Siegecrafter with Monks having crappy burst and no way to get any vengeance that early in the fight.

  11. #5711
    Moderator Babylonius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khorm View Post
    Warriors are top DPS atm and Monks are last and that is where threat is tied.
    Two anecdotal references to DPS from two different people in two different threads in the same day!?! What a way to start.

    Overall Prot Warriors are the top tank DPS, according to RaidBots Top 100 parses of the last 2 months, being the #1 or #2 parsed tank on every fight except Nazgrim. Brewmaster is the #2 overall tank DPS, being first on Fallen Protectors, Galakras, Dark Shaman, and Spoils. They are not last on any fight.

    If you look at all parses, not just Top 100, then Warriors fall to #3 and Monks stay #2. Far from "last" no matter how you look at it.
    - - Monk Class Forum Moderator - -
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  12. #5712
    Incidentally it would be great if Raidbots started to parse Warcraft Logs instead of World of Logs since no one uses that garbage site anymore.

    That said, BrMs as lowest tank DPS is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Prot Paladins clearly have the lowest potential for damage, seeing as they don't get ridiculous amounts of free crit like every other tank. I'm not sure if Blood DKs should be lower than them or not, I've seen quite a few that didn't learn how to stack dodge/parry like Warriors and are still stacking mastery for some crazy reason. Either way they're no where near Monks/Warriors/Druids.
    Brewmaster, Windwalker, and Mistweaver enthusiast and theorycrafter.

  13. #5713
    I'm new to tanking (and to BM as well):

    Should I have a backpedaling keybind? I haven't used one for ages, but monks can roll backwards....I like BM because I already saved myself of dying by simply rolling away when problems arise, but ain't I risking getting 1 shot by a raid boss if I roll sideways or even if I turn my back to the boss even for 1 second?

  14. #5714
    Backpedaling has its uses as a tank. It's slower than strafing sideways, so it can be useful to ensure a boss is being moved at a speed that melee will for sure keep up with, even if they realize you're moving a little late. Backwards roll is also cool .

    Re: BrM dps -- we have fantastic aoe and our low-medium vengeance dps is good. However, all of the other tanks outscale us at high vengeance. Look at H Garrosh (either 10 man where kiting doesn't usually happen, or 25 man where the monk didn't kite) on WCL. It's probably easiest to just look at 10H solo tanks and you'll see that the highest monk is 71st wrt tanks. He wore the tank legendary meta, but adding 5% to his damage would still put him at 34th or so which is behind all of the other tank classes (it would put him close to beating the highest blood dk, but the blood dk also didn't wear the dps meta and wore a tank trinket, so.. yea). I've only solo tanked 10H Garrosh on my monk and bear, and since my monk is squishier for it/her healer pair is a bit weaker she wore both tank legendaries and missed a few annhilates, but the bear did more than 215k dps more with ~identical gear and strats other than the legendaries.
    Anyways, while the difference is quite marked at high vengeance, it pretty much doesn't matter since vengeance is going away anyways.
    Last edited by Kitmajere; 2014-07-31 at 09:59 PM.

  15. #5715
    Moderator Babylonius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitmajere View Post
    Re: BrM dps -- we have fantastic aoe and our low-medium vengeance dps is fine. However, all of the other tanks outscale us at high vengeance. Look at H Garrosh (either 10 man where kiting doesn't usually happen, or 25 man where the monk didn't kite) on WCL. It's probably easiest to just look at 10H solo tanks and you'll see that the highest monk is 71st wrt tanks. He wore the tank legendary meta, but adding 5% to his damage would still put him at 34th or so which is behind all of the other tank classes (it would put him close to beating the highest blood dk, but the blood dk also didn't wear the dps meta and wore a tank trinket, so.. yea). I've only solo tanked 10H Garrosh on my monk and bear, and since my monk is squishier for it/her healer pair is a bit weaker she wore both tank legendaries and missed a few annhilates, but the bear did more than 215k dps more with ~identical gear and strats other than the legendaries. Anyways, the difference is quite marked at high vengeance, but it mostly doesn't matter since vengeance is going away anyways.
    You're again talking about one fight and one instance of your monk vs your bear. If you normalize all the sample sizes to the top 100 of each tank, then you can assume that each of those parses got the majority of vengeance and had the strategies most conducive to maximum tank DPS. Looking over the 11 fights that RaidBots covers, BrM monks come out #2. Since there's no data on the final 3 fights, you can predict/assume/etc whatever you'd like, but the maximum source of data available shows Monks as #2 behind Warriors and ahead of Druids in both 10H and 25H.
    - - Monk Class Forum Moderator - -
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  16. #5716
    Well you're also neglecting the three hardest encounters, which are arguably the most important. You can ignore WCL if you'd like but the evidence is there.

    Here, does this make you happier:

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/statisti...1000&boss=1623
    Feel free to play with the settings and come up with any way that monks aren't the worst tank dps on Garrosh.
    Last edited by Kitmajere; 2014-07-31 at 10:13 PM.

  17. #5717
    Quote Originally Posted by Kitmajere View Post
    Well you're also neglecting the three hardest encounters, which are arguably the most important. You can ignore WCL if you'd like but the evidence is there.

    Here, does this make you happier:

    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/statisti...1000&boss=1623
    They're also the most worthless comparisons to use because they all have of a ton of AoE throughout the fight... I don't really know what you think you're trying to prove, because all I'm seeing is that the only natural AoE BrMs are forced to do is Keg Smash while other tanks DoT every target or just straight up have almost every single ability do AoE (Paladins).

    I could point out Siegecrafter and say that BrMs have better DPS than any spec in the game because a BrM is on top on WCL, but that would be stupid because most of it is RJW and Chi Burst.
    Brewmaster, Windwalker, and Mistweaver enthusiast and theorycrafter.

  18. #5718
    Any top parse is cleaving as much as they can, incidental or not. If anything BrM parses are inflated on Garrosh relative to some other tanks since they are so great at aoe.
    And, um, do show me where BrM is higher than warrior/druid on H SC (not a single parse mind you, avg top 5% or all parses, whatever).

    I don't know what you want. I gave you data showing monks suck at H Garrosh dps, the most important fight of the tier, compared to the other tanks. I also threw in my personal experience. You can deny it all you want but the facts are there...

    If for some unknown reason you would like to throw out H Garrosh (??), you can look at all of the bosses:
    Top 5% 25H all bosses: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/statisti...1000&dataset=5 BrM third
    Top 5% 10H all bosses: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/statisti...aset=5&size=10 BrM third

    I by no means am agreeing with whomever said BrM dps is "dead last", I'm just pointing out that on the most important fight of the tier it is, and it's generally middle of pack. We're still very strong at aoe and we're good dps for the majority of the bosses; we just don't scale with vengeance as well as the other tanks and it shows on Garrosh. It's an okay place to be in, we're fine, and the vengeance issue will be removed in WoD.

    Edit: WCL has some awesome features. If you look at purely boss dps for all of the bosses, BrM is 4th in 25H all parses and last in the top 5%, 4th in 10H for both sets of parses. Obviously it's last for H Garrosh in both sizes any way you dice the parses.
    Last edited by Kitmajere; 2014-07-31 at 10:50 PM.

  19. #5719
    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings...601&metric=dps

    Wow, BrM such top DPS.


    Yes, sure, DPS is more important on Garrosh than any other fight in the raid, but only damage to Garrosh, no one cares how much padding happened in P1 to adds that are doomed to be flattened by Iron Stars anyways. It's just a general rule that you don't use either Garrosh or Paragons to compare DPS because padding screws up everything.

    BrM scales just fine with Vengeance, if you're looking at the proper metrics and not looking at overall damage on fights where padding happens daily (intentionally or not). It takes more than 5 seconds of searching, but when you actually look at single target damage done to bosses across a number of fights, you can arrive pretty easily at Druid > Warrior > Monk > DK > Paladin and it's not very difficult to figure out how they got there. Druids get extra crit and haste ratings, Warriors have Riposte and ridiculous DPS cooldowns, Monks have high damage skills but no cooldowns and 15% nerf, DKs have incredibly awful damage (tons of downtime) but have Riposte to make up for it, and Paladins stack haste but individual damage on skills is awful.
    Brewmaster, Windwalker, and Mistweaver enthusiast and theorycrafter.

  20. #5720
    I said not a single parse :-p.

    I also looked at purely boss dps and posted it in my edit, see above or [Edit: WCL has some awesome features. If you look at purely boss dps for all of the bosses, BrM is 4th in 25H all parses and last in the top 5%, 4th in 10H for both sets of parses. Obviously it's last for H Garrosh in both sizes any way you dice the parses.]

    Including the links this time:
    Top 5% 25H, all bosses, boss dps: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/statisti...&timespan=1000 BrM last
    Top 5% 10H, all bosses, boss dps: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/statisti...n=1000&size=10 BrM 4th

    And no, it's not even remotely shocking. We only have Xuen as a dps cd to use at high vengeance, and quite a few bosses he's not optimal to use on, and we got a blanket unnecessary 15% damage nerf. Riposte propped up dks, warriors got riposte+they have burst cds+safeguard lets them keep vengeance/riposte up when not tanking, bears have stupid amounts of crit, and pallys scale extremely well with vengeance (god they are awful damage without it).

    Regardless, I think we can all safely agree that BrM is *at best* middle of the pack tank-dps-wise, and if all you care about is boss damage roughly 4th or last. In reverse, if you need some more tank aoe, a BrM is quite good at it!
    Last edited by Kitmajere; 2014-07-31 at 11:32 PM.

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