1. #1201
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paraalso View Post
    Again you fail to understand.

    We are comparing 2500 haste with Power Strikes to 2500 haste with Ascension. We are not making the comparison you are talking about. If you are at 2500 haste (or whatever haste rating you have that is below the number Ascension catches up with PS), then Ascension is worse than Power Strikes for chi generation, period.

    The 13,33 soft cap was calculated with Power Strikes included. If you leave out Power Strikes, then you have less chi, and need to adjust your soft cap to compensate.

    So with your example with Ascension you have x% crit and 27 chi with Ascension. With Power Strikes you still have x% crit and more than 27 chi available. You don't need to change anything in your gear. By switching to Power Strikes you just simply gain chi. Your crit stays the same and the amount of chi you have available increases.

    It is better to be at 11.6 energy/s and Power Strikes than to be at 13,33 energy/s without Power Strikes. There's no advantage to the latter except for aoeing.
    I think you are failing to understand. I am making the point that those extra chi are not worth as much.

    I'll take your numbers, 11.6 w/ PS and 13.33 w/ Asc.

    11.6 nets you 696 energy/min, for 17.4 chi producing attacks. 7 of those will be KS, the other 10 jab/expel, for 24 chi plus 3 from PS for 27 chi.

    13.33 nets you 800 energy/min, for 20 chi producing attacks. 7 KS, 13 jab/expel, for 27 chi.

    Using your numbers, Power Strikes gives you 1 extra chi every 2 and a half minutes over Ascension with the same haste rating. That amount of chi is negligible over the course of a fight and having faster resources and the ability to bank more chi more than makes up for the 1 extra PB every 2.5 min.

    It doesn't really matter how we compare, the end result is going to be the same. Yes you get a tiny but more chi, but you have other benefits that you trade that for.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-11-28 at 01:32 PM.

  2. #1202
    Quote Originally Posted by paraalso View Post
    The 13,33 soft cap was calculated with Power Strikes included.
    Where can we see such calculation? From my understanding, 13,33 'cap' just gives as 40 energy every 3 secs, wich allows us to use Jab|Keg|EH every third gcd.

    Quote Originally Posted by paraalso View Post
    If you leave out Power Strikes, then you have less chi, and need to adjust your soft cap to compensate.

    ...

    It is better to be at 11.6 energy/s and Power Strikes than to be at 13,33 energy/s without Power Strikes. There's no advantage to the latter except for aoeing.
    Let's assume that fight is started some time ago and our monk is having 0 energy. Then on a first minute after that event:
    a) he'll have 11,83 * 60 = 709,8 energy to spend;
    b) 7 times he will use Keg Smash, which would give him 14 Chis and consume 7*40 = 280 energy;
    c) latter of 429,8 energy will be spend on Jabs, which would give him 529,8 / 40 = 10,745 Chis;
    d) plus 3 'free' Chis from PS, which gives us total of 14 + 10,745 + 3 = 27.745 Chis per minite of fight with PS and 11.83 e|sec regen.

    For monk w|o PS and with Ascension results will be:
    a) 13,33 * 60 = 799,8 energy;
    b) same 7 Kegs with same 14 Chis per 280 energy;
    c) (799,8 - 280) / 40 = 12,995;
    d) total: 14 + 12,995 = 26.995;

    Less than 1 Chi (0.75) difference for every 'not first' minute of a fight, where we do not have extra 100 energy.
    (27,745 - 26,995) * 10 = 7.5 Chi difference on a 10 minute fight.

  3. #1203
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    I think you are failing to understand. I am making the point that those extra chi are not worth as much.

    I'll take your numbers, 11.6 w/ PS and 13.33 w/ Asc.

    11.6 nets you 696 energy/min, for 17.4 chi producing attacks. 7 of those will be KS, the other 10 jab/expel, for 24 chi plus 3 from PS for 27.

    13.33 nets you 800 energy/min, for 20 chi producing attacks. 7 KS, 13 jab/expel, for 27 chi.

    Using your numbers, Power Strikes gives you 1 extra chi every 2 and a half minutes over Ascension with the same haste rating. That amount of chi is negligible over the course of a fight and having faster resources and the ability to bank more chi more than makes up for the 1 extra PB every 2.5 min.

    It doesn't really matter how we compare, the end result is going to be the same. Yes you get a tiny but more chi, but you have other benefits that you trade that for.
    That's not what you were claiming originally at all. But it's good that we agree now. Ascension gives you less resources, but gives you higher maximum chi. Which is what I was saying from the very beginning.

    And that still doesn't change the fact that you need to adjust your soft cap. If it was worth going for 13,3 energy/s with Power Strikes before, then it's worth going for more than 13,3 energy/s without Power Strikes. If it's not worth going above 13,3 energy/s with Ascension, then it was never worth it to go that high with Power Strikes.
    Last edited by paraalso; 2012-11-28 at 01:36 PM.

  4. #1204
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paraalso View Post
    That's not what you were claiming originally at all. But it's good that we agree now. Ascension gives you less resources, but gives you higher maximum chi. Which is what I was saying from the very beginning.

    And that still doesn't change the fact that you need to adjust your soft cap. If it was worth going for 13,3 energy/s with Power Strikes before, then it's worth going for more than 13,3 energy/s without Power Strikes. If it's not worth going above 13,3 energy/s with Ascension, then it was never worth it to go that high with Power Strikes.
    As Seigert said...the soft cap didn't have much to do with PS, and really the soft cap was such a nebulous term that it's not that much of a milestone. It had more to do with the value of each additional chi at reducing damage taken, which is what my original point was. Once you have sufficient chi to keep shuffle and guard up, and use purifying brew when you hit yellow/red, additional chi isn't as useful and putting those stat points into crit would benefit you more.

    Power Strikes and Ascension are so similar that the "convenience" as you put it outweighs the tiny bit of extra chi, which wasn't very valuable at that point.

  5. #1205
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    As Seigert said...the soft cap didn't have much to do with PS, and really the soft cap was such a nebulous term that it's not that much of a milestone. It had more to do with the value of each additional chi at reducing damage taken, which is what my original point was. Once you have sufficient chi to keep shuffle and guard up, and use purifying brew when you hit yellow/red, additional chi isn't as useful and putting those stat points into crit would benefit you more.
    But you are missing the fact that you have less chi now than you had before. So effectively you are saying this:

    Pre patch : 30 chi/minute is good. After that crit is better
    After patch : 27 chi/minute is good. After that crit is better

    You have less chi with 13,3 energy now (that you needed Ascension to get) than pre-patch with 13,3 energy and PS. If it's good to go for less chi now, then it was always worth it. So you should have been gearing for less haste and more crit all along.

  6. #1206
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paraalso View Post
    But you are missing the fact that you have less chi now than you had before. So effectively you are saying this:

    Pre patch : 30 chi/minute is good. After that crit is better
    After patch : 27 chi/minute is good. After that crit is better

    You have less chi with 13,3 energy now (that you needed Ascension to get) than pre-patch with 13,3 energy and PS. If it's good to go for less chi now, then it was always worth it. So you should have been gearing for less haste and more crit all along.
    I actually have been gearing that way, see post #1179.

  7. #1207
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    I actually have been gearing that way, see post #1179.
    I think it's possible that may have been the right thing to do all along. However, it does mean that the idea of the old softcap was always wrong.

    The whole softcap concept is misleading to a lot of people. It just means that crit and haste are roughly equal around that point for average damage reduction. But that point depends on a lot of factors like your gear, boss attack speed, damage per hit and fight mechanics. Haste and crit give very different types of benefits, so depending on the fight one or the other may be better far above or below the point where they give equal average damage reduction. That's a lot more complex though, and it's easier for people to grasp a single cap to try to reach for general gearing.

  8. #1208
    So, who else woke up and saw our hotfix and got pretty excited?

    Desperate Measures now also resets the cooldown on Expel Harm when the Monk is below 35% health.

  9. #1209
    Legendary! Gallahadd's Avatar
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    I did and I actually cheered! which resulted in being splashed with hot coffee....

    Totally worth it though
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    Stands in front of 100 enemies with 10% health left "Myeh, I'll save my potions for when I REALLY need them." - every rpg player ever.

  10. #1210
    thanks for putting what i wanted to say in much better terminology Chuupag, lol. I agree with the less Chi overall, but personally i like the idea of being able to free up so much more haste to play with more crit on my monk. I feel like i have greater survivability with so much more EB procs now.

  11. #1211
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iamgob View Post
    thanks for putting what i wanted to say in much better terminology Chuupag, lol. I agree with the less Chi overall, but personally i like the idea of being able to free up so much more haste to play with more crit on my monk. I feel like i have greater survivability with so much more EB procs now.
    No problem, just happy to help further the understanding of the spec. Yea once you have enough chi/min to have shuffle, guard, and a decent amount of PB anything more you can only dump in either more PB or lvl 30 talents, so why not throw it into crit for more EB. I'd rather dodge the hit completely than have to stagger it and PB it off.

  12. #1212
    I think you're missing a very important point in the PS/Asc debate. When you pull the boss, PS gives you not only one, but two Chi. Indeed, if your last jab was more than 20 sec before you pull (which is likely), Power Strikes will work for your first Jab, and you'll get the buff again, a short time after your Jab. This is a really welcome resource gain at the beginning of the fight, which enables you to build a safer initial Shuffle. Yet it seems this doesn't always work ; i guess there is a sort of icd on the buff gain, maybe you get it once every 20 sec unless you consumed it less than X sec ago.

    And... did anybody notice that Dampen Harm now works on all damage, no matter how large it is... even the Stagger DoT consumes stacks (rapidly !).
    Last edited by Morion; 2012-11-28 at 04:19 PM.

  13. #1213
    Quote Originally Posted by Morion View Post
    And... did anybody notice that Dampen Harm now works on all damage, no matter how large it is... even the Stagger DoT consumes stacks (rapidly !).
    Strange, with the change they made it should be proccing on fewer attacks not more frequently.

  14. #1214
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morion View Post
    I think you're missing a very important point in the PS/Asc debate. When you pull the boss, PS gives you not only one, but two Chi. Indeed, if your last jab was more than 20 sec before you pull (which is likely), Power Strikes will work for your first Jab, and you'll get the buff again, a short time after your Jab. This is a really welcome resource gain at the beginning of the fight, which enables you to build a safer initial Shuffle. Yet it seems this doesn't always work ; i guess there is a sort of icd on the buff gain, maybe you get it once every 20 sec unless you consumed it less than X sec ago.
    I don't think that is much of an issue. You should be using expel harm before the pull if you are worried about getting shuffle and guard up ASAP. The difference is 4 gcds w/ PS or 5 w/ Asc for shuffle and unbuffed guard. Using expel harm prior to the pull equalizes that at 4 each.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-11-28 at 05:12 PM.

  15. #1215
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    Thanks for the answer. I guess I'll stick to ascension and see how it pans out. As for Power Guard I'll check if it persists after updating addons.
    My Weak Aura for both TP and Guard totally broke last night, haven't had a chance to rebuild them. I did have the Power Guard icon appearing on my buff list though so it is proc'ing but your UI may not catch it.

    Anyone know an easier way of seeing the # of PB's you cast per fight outside of the expression editor? Based on Chuupag's # numbers it takes me on average 27 chi/min to keep guard+shuffle+PB (31 PB's over 7:14 min) but my moderate stagger % is a bit higher than I like as I would hit yellow at times when Shuffle or Guard were coming off CD.

    So the question becomes would the extra resources in haste to clear more Stagger be worth more than the crit to improve EB (which in theory could prevent stagger in the first place)?

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  16. #1216
    I checked and there is no 'power guard' (at least on my monk). Am I bugged or did I miss some change?

  17. #1217
    Power Guard is still there, it just doesn't stack anymore, and immediately gives 15% more to guard with the one stack.

  18. #1218
    Really? Good to know, I was worried that somehow some of my addons is interfering with that or that I'm doing something wrong. Thanks.

  19. #1219
    Quote Originally Posted by Morion View Post
    I think you're missing a very important point in the PS/Asc debate. When you pull the boss, PS gives you not only one, but two Chi. Indeed, if your last jab was more than 20 sec before you pull (which is likely), Power Strikes will work for your first Jab, and you'll get the buff again, a short time after your Jab. This is a really welcome resource gain at the beginning of the fight, which enables you to build a safer initial Shuffle. Yet it seems this doesn't always work ; i guess there is a sort of icd on the buff gain, maybe you get it once every 20 sec unless you consumed it less than X sec ago.

    And... did anybody notice that Dampen Harm now works on all damage, no matter how large it is... even the Stagger DoT consumes stacks (rapidly !).
    if you arent using keg smash on the pull you're doing it wrong anyway.

    :{

    Expel harm->Dizzying Haze->Keg Smash->bok->jab->bok.

  20. #1220
    Stood in the Fire Yorgl's Avatar
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    Not to mention that I find rarely useful to use Guard right after the pull. It makes it almost half the size of what you would have after waiting for a little bit of Vengeance.

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