1. #1261
    So last night i got both lfr gaorei staff and 1 lfr shek'zeer claw thingy. Im using gaorei atm, since it replaced my inscription staff, But should i start using the shek'zeer claw when/if i get a normal garakal fist from garajal?

  2. #1262
    Quote Originally Posted by Ergar View Post
    So last night i got both lfr gaorei staff and 1 lfr shek'zeer claw thingy. Im using gaorei atm, since it replaced my inscription staff, But should i start using the shek'zeer claw when/if i get a normal garakal fist from garajal?
    Whichever is higher ilevel is the general rule of thumb. That said, the stats on Gao'rei are kinda poop, while Shek'zeer and Gara'kal have crit and haste on them respectively. Much nicer.

    That said (again), 2 handers generally have more stamina on them, and since it has mastery it makes a good stat stick for a high stam/mastery set of gear. So if I were you, I'd use shek'zeer/gara'kal in a regular tanking set, then switch to Gao'rei when you need more stamina/mastery (heavy hitters, basically).

  3. #1263
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Intangible benefits are hard to quantify...and you don't really need that much chi.

    13.33 w/ Power Strikes you have 61 chi every 2 mins. You only need 48 to keep up shuffle and guard, and in actual situations less. 80% is a good average, which means you only need 40 to keep shuffle up 80% and guard on CD. PB has diminishing returns, meaning the more you use it the less effective it is per chi(therefore energy, therefore haste) at reducing damage.

    13.33 w/ Ascension is alot less haste needed, ~5k, which you can throw into crit for more EB...therefore less damage and less need for PB, and you get 55 chi per 2 min.
    I know that I'm a bit late to quote this, but hear me out.

    I think that the problem with this is that if you want a high shuffle uptime (greater than 80%) your PB is going to suffer much more harshly with ascension and that the dodge gained from crit won't be able to help mitigate it.

    Doing some testing with my own stats, currently my build provides me with an average of about 10.27% dodge. If I suddenly decided to move 5000 haste rating to crit rating, I would gain about 2.36% dodge. Obviously, that number is very difficult to put into perspective because its affected by four different variables (weapon speed after haste, crit chance, chargers per crit, and if you have tier 14 2 piece or not), however it's not going to fluctuate much. I don't think that much dodge will be able to help mitigate the increase in direct damage taken or longer periods of time between PB usage. Getting to 13.33 energy regen + PS seems to be better for smoother damage intake.

    To clarify, the formula I used is below

    c(60 / t) x Y = S

    (S x E) / 60 = d

    c = crit chance in decimal form
    t = weapon speed after haste
    Y = EB charges per crit
    S = EB charges per minute
    E = % dodge gained via elusive brew (either 30 or 35)
    d = average % dodge

    I think the math's right. Mind, it's a bit after 6:00 in the morning here and I haven't slept a wink. Perhaps you could do a better job of figuring out exactly how much dodge you'd get from going into ascension and switching to crit.

  4. #1264
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    I think that the problem with this is that if you want a high shuffle uptime (greater than 80%) your PB is going to suffer much more harshly with ascension and that the dodge gained from crit won't be able to help mitigate it.
    I guess that's if you're comparing 13.33 ER + PS vs 13.33 ER + Ascension. But what if you compare, say, 14 ER + Ascension vs 13.33 ER + PS?

    13.33ER/PS gives 61 chi per 2 mins, while 14ER/Asc gives 57 chi per 2 mins. But 14ER/Asc requires around 4,500 haste rating, while 13.33ER/PS requires around 9,000.

    So it's slightly less Chi, but is that 4 Chi going to make much difference? Compared to the ~4,500 haste rating saved which can be put into crit? Depends on how much you need to PB, I guess.

    You could always push for 15ER/Asc, which if I calculated correctly would require roughly 6,750 haste rating. Still a lot less than the haste required for 13.33ER/PS, and you'd be getting 60 chi per 2 mins.

  5. #1265
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    I guess that's if you're comparing 13.33 ER + PS vs 13.33 ER + Ascension. But what if you compare, say, 14 ER + Ascension vs 13.33 ER + PS?

    13.33ER/PS gives 61 chi per 2 mins, while 14ER/Asc gives 57 chi per 2 mins. But 14ER/Asc requires around 4,500 haste rating, while 13.33ER/PS requires around 9,000.

    So it's slightly less Chi, but is that 4 Chi going to make much difference? Compared to the ~4,500 haste rating saved which can be put into crit? Depends on how much you need to PB, I guess.

    You could always push for 15ER/Asc, which if I calculated correctly would require roughly 6,750 haste rating. Still a lot less than the haste required for 13.33ER/PS, and you'd be getting 60 chi per 2 mins.
    I think that's a fair point and a fair possibility... but you'd need a lot of calculation to see which point would yield a net benefit.

    However if we're talking a difference of 60 chi and 61 chi, then that's negligible. You could get a bit less than 5% crit with the extra haste rating, but I'm willing to bet that the crit from that will also be negligible in terms of the amount of dodge gained.

  6. #1266
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    I know that I'm a bit late to quote this, but hear me out.

    I think that the problem with this is that if you want a high shuffle uptime (greater than 80%) your PB is going to suffer much more harshly with ascension and that the dodge gained from crit won't be able to help mitigate it.

    Doing some testing with my own stats, currently my build provides me with an average of about 10.27% dodge. If I suddenly decided to move 5000 haste rating to crit rating, I would gain about 2.36% dodge. Obviously, that number is very difficult to put into perspective because its affected by four different variables (weapon speed after haste, crit chance, chargers per crit, and if you have tier 14 2 piece or not), however it's not going to fluctuate much. I don't think that much dodge will be able to help mitigate the increase in direct damage taken or longer periods of time between PB usage. Getting to 13.33 energy regen + PS seems to be better for smoother damage intake.

    To clarify, the formula I used is below

    c(60 / t) x Y = S

    (S x E) / 60 = d

    c = crit chance in decimal form
    t = weapon speed after haste
    Y = EB charges per crit
    S = EB charges per minute
    E = % dodge gained via elusive brew (either 30 or 35)
    d = average % dodge

    I think the math's right. Mind, it's a bit after 6:00 in the morning here and I haven't slept a wink. Perhaps you could do a better job of figuring out exactly how much dodge you'd get from going into ascension and switching to crit.
    Mad was kind enough to let me use his numbers...since I'm DW and it's annoying to calculate EB for DW. They should provide exactly the same number though.

    If you were able to transfer 5100 points of haste into crit in order to keep the same energy regen as Power Strikes when taking Ascension, the gain would be just less than 4 seconds of EB a minute and a dps gain of roughly 8% that you would have traded 3 chi for. It's worth noting that that 4 seconds is about a 15% increase in relative uptime. Averaged out that is 1.9229% dodge (2.2434% with 2-set) over the course of the minute, but I don't think that is a very good estimation for EB...since when it's active we have about 70% avoidance vs 40% when not. I think those 3 chi are more important on some fights than on others, like in heavy hitting fights you'll want to clear PB more often whereas in others you don't.

    Going to go do some more math.

  7. #1267
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Alright gang, I just dinged 90 last night. What should I reforge my gear towards? Here's a link to my armory. I appreciate the help;

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Shaima/simple

  8. #1268
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Alright gang, I just dinged 90 last night. What should I reforge my gear towards? Here's a link to my armory. I appreciate the help;

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Shaima/simple
    Haste. If you just dinged then some more hit/exp would be helpful whilst tanking heroics, as well (but don't sacrifice haste for that).

    Also don't use Zen Sphere, the cost is WAY too high for the return. Use Chi Wave instead.

  9. #1269
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Mad was kind enough to let me use his numbers...since I'm DW and it's annoying to calculate EB for DW. They should provide exactly the same number though.

    If you were able to transfer 5100 points of haste into crit in order to keep the same energy regen as Power Strikes when taking Ascension, the gain would be just less than 4 seconds of EB a minute and a dps gain of roughly 8% that you would have traded 3 chi for. It's worth noting that that 4 seconds is about a 15% increase in relative uptime. Averaged out that is 1.9229% dodge (2.2434% with 2-set) over the course of the minute, but I don't think that is a very good estimation for EB...since when it's active we have about 70% avoidance vs 40% when not. I think those 3 chi are more important on some fights than on others, like in heavy hitting fights you'll want to clear PB more often whereas in others you don't.

    Going to go do some more math.
    Alright more maths.

    In those 4 seconds you will either take 2 or 3 hits from the average boss. Bosses reduce our avoidance through depression, so after taking that into account the numbers of taking consecutive hits and misses are:

    2 hits
    Shuffle only: 44.69% taking both, 10.99% avoiding both
    Shuffle+EB: 13.58% taking both, 39.88% avoiding both

    3 hits
    Shuffle only: 29.87% taking 3, 3.64% avoiding 3
    Shuffle+EB: 5.00% taking 3, 25.18% avoiding 3

    I'd like to point out that due to avoidance depression EB just about doubles our avoidance, and with the 2-set more than doubles. Again using Mad's kindly shared numbers with just Shuffle he has 33.15% chance to avoid an attack vs 63.15% chance with Shuffle and EB, and that would become 68.15% with the 2-set. My own numbers, with lower ilvl gear, is 29.47% with Shuffle and 59.47% with Shuffle and EB. Your numbers most likely fall between these two.[COLOR="red"]

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-30 at 08:36 AM ----------

    But wait...there's more maths.

    So using statistical analysis of those previous avoidance numbers, with shuffle up over 3 boss attacks you will on average take 1.4 of the attacks. With the EB up you only take 1.1 of those attacks, or roughly 21% less damage taken while EB is up. So then the PB/Asc is chi worth debate becomes is 4 sec of 21% reduced damage worth more than 3 chi. Which at this point I think is more dependent on the individual boss. And using stats in such small windows as this becomes less and less accurate since you could just as well avoid 3 attacks and it might be worth more than 3 chi, or you could not avoid any and it would be less.

    RNG is a fickle mistress, and I think the best course may be what Kisho was suggesting at getting up to 14 or so to get back some chi while still being able to move some to crit. B/c just IMO 4 sec of EB is most definitely better than 1 chi, it's the 2 and 3 chi statements that have more caveats.

    Yes I know you wouldn't get the full 4 sec if you moved less haste, but I still have feeling that Asc is a more convenient talent as we don't have to worry about capping chi and chi spheres popping up and getting missed...therefore wasted, e.g. sitting at 2 chi...PS comes up as you KS and you miss the chi sphere in the clusterf--- of crap on the ground.

    But the whole value of chi is only important if you are having a lot of Heavy Stagger, or more Moderate Stagger than you or your healers are comfortable with. If you don't then the EB is always going to be better than more chi.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-11-30 at 02:46 PM.

  10. #1270
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Yes I know you wouldn't get the full 4 sec if you moved less haste, but I still have feeling that Asc is a more convenient talent as we don't have to worry about capping chi and chi spheres popping up and getting missed...therefore wasted, e.g. sitting at 2 chi...PS comes up as you KS and you miss the chi sphere in the clusterf--- of crap on the ground.
    Yeah, while the maths is very useful you can never ignore the 'convenience/feeling' side of things. By which I mean, having 5 Chi max instead of 4 can be really useful: you can always keep 1 Chi 'banked' for an emergency PB, less chance of accidentally missing the second Chi from Keg Smash, and the things you said above.

  11. #1271
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    Haste. If you just dinged then some more hit/exp would be helpful whilst tanking heroics, as well (but don't sacrifice haste for that).

    Also don't use Zen Sphere, the cost is WAY too high for the return. Use Chi Wave instead.
    Thanks! I'm reforging.

    BTW, any glyph or talent recommendations? Am I correct in assuming that the best 90 talent for heroics as a BM is RJW?

  12. #1272
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Thanks! I'm reforging.

    BTW, any glyph or talent recommendations? Am I correct in assuming that the best 90 talent for heroics as a BM is RJW?
    RJW works really nicely for heroics, yeah. By the time you get into raiding then Xuen pulls ahead significantly: with vengeance, his DPS is pretty incredible. As a particularly fun example, see my guild's first kill of heroic Stone Guard last night: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1297&e=1598

    You'll note Xuen did more damage over the entire fight than my Keg Smashes did. He was my highest source of DPS across the entire fight. Pretty ridiculous. But yeah, for your level, go RJW for heroics.

    Glyph and talent recommendations... For glyphs, the only two I use pretty much all the time are Spinning Crane Kick and Zen Meditation. But those are more convenience: I'd hate for Zen Meditation to be broken because I have to move, and I tend to move a lot while SCKing, so the glyph makes sense.

    Other good glyphs include Guard (magic heavy fights only), Stoneskin, Transcendence, etc. Essentially what I'm saying is you're going to be changing glyphs a lot depending on the encounter. For heroics, not important. Raids, definitely.

    For talent advice, see the guide in the first post of the thread. That talent advice is still quite accurate (except for the PS/Asc decision, that's still under debate: that said at the moment, go with personal preference and you won't go far wrong).

  13. #1273
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    So did HoF last night with Ascension + 14.50 ER + expertise soft cap and was pretty happy with it. Only drawbacks I noticed was a reduction in Chi Waves I felt comfortable using (as I predicted) and sometimes I wouldn't have the energy for Expel Harm right when I'd 'like' to use it but I can probably adjust my habit of burning down energy as low as possible constantly and just strive to keep it around 50% normally.

    I just changed my Mastery -> Haste and Crit -> Haste reforges, didn't have time to tweak gem's but think I'll leave as-is for the rest of this lock out. Now I just need to get my 2P to drop so I can take advantage of the extra EB stacks more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    I think those 3 chi are more important on some fights than on others, like in heavy hitting fights you'll want to clear PB more often whereas in others you don't.
    On Empress with the #'s above I was able to clear Moderate+ stagger timely but had zero room for Chi Wave until I was off tanking. This is with keeping Shuffle/Guard up as a priority.
    Last edited by SurrealNight; 2012-11-30 at 04:16 PM.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  14. #1274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Thanks! I'm reforging.

    BTW, any glyph or talent recommendations? Am I correct in assuming that the best 90 talent for heroics as a BM is RJW?
    Glyph of Fortifying Brew! You should get this glyph for almost everything. If there is somethinge where you need more health to survive an ability you take it out ofcourse.

  15. #1275
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    Hmm, I'm a bit confused as to what to do. I love using Ascension, the extra haste is just great. I was looking into takeing Ascension and trying to get my haste down to 13.33 energy regen per second, and reforging the expertise into crit. Is anyone able to have a go and see if they can do it? I can't for the life of me manage it. My energy regen atm is showing as 14.65 on char sheet

    Armoury: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rlena/advanced

  16. #1276
    Pandaren Monk Meteoria's Avatar
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    Hmm, I'm a bit confused as to what to do. I love using Ascension, the extra haste is just great. I was looking into takeing Ascension and trying to get my haste down to 13.33 energy regen per second, and reforging the expertise into crit. Is anyone able to have a go and see if they can do it? I can't for the life of me manage it. My energy regen atm is showing as 14.65 on char sheet

    Armoury: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rlena/advanced
    The first thing i can see is the Haste gems, which if your a going for 13.33 regen you can replace with crit gems. Also if you are going to even consider going down to 13.33 regen, you will have to reforge out of haste in your gear.

  17. #1277
    So I was just hitting a training dummy trying to see how much my guard would absorb without power guard and then how much with power guard. For whatever reason the numbers on the tooltip weren't changing at all. When I used guard the amount was up from 68k to 71k which isn't 15%. Not sure why.

  18. #1278
    This enforced range check on kegsmash is doing my head in, I swear after using it like it was for months I'm a much better judge than the game - spose I'll get used to it eventually.

  19. #1279
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    Hmm, I'm a bit confused as to what to do. I love using Ascension, the extra haste is just great. I was looking into takeing Ascension and trying to get my haste down to 13.33 energy regen per second, and reforging the expertise into crit. Is anyone able to have a go and see if they can do it? I can't for the life of me manage it. My energy regen atm is showing as 14.65 on char sheet

    Armoury: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rlena/advanced
    You probably don't want to go down to 13.33ER with Ascension. At least, when I tried for that I just struggled to keep Shuffle up.

    14 ER works a lot better with Ascension, I find.

  20. #1280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisho View Post
    You probably don't want to go down to 13.33ER with Ascension. At least, when I tried for that I just struggled to keep Shuffle up.

    14 ER works a lot better with Ascension, I find.
    Yeah, I've brought it down to just under 14 ER. Shuffle isn't hard to keep up at that point as well as doing other things.

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