1. #2441
    Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't really change hit, but in this case Neffrolla, you can. Do the following reforges:

    Head - Leave as is
    Neck - Mastery to Hit
    Shoulder - Expertise to Crit
    Back - Mastery to Crit
    Chest - No reforge
    Bracer - Leave as is
    Gloves - Leave as is
    Waist - Hit to Crit
    Legs - Leave as is
    Boots - Crit to Hit
    Windreaver ring - Hit to Haste
    Anji's Keepsake - Haste to Crit
    Trinkets - As is
    Wpn - As is

    This gives you:

    Hit - 2552, Exp - 2571, Haste - 4502, Crit - 5538.

    This is what I would recommend and as you get better gear, change as needed.

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  2. #2442
    High Overlord BalwickZaik's Avatar
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    Just back to say I can't get on with Power Strikes. Even with my haste up to 6.4k from 5500, it feels clunky and horrible - I hate having to WAIT for that extra Chi point. Back to Ascension for me; having a steadier, more reliable stream of resources is just better IMO.

  3. #2443
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djtravitrav View Post
    Even receiving the crit benefit from autoattacks during that 10 sec proc window is amazing, so I think everyone should take another look at what this trinket can do for Brewmasters. Also, the fact that it may be proccing twice a minute now by the sound of it, is even more ridiculous.

    I also believe you may be misreading the proc however, at this point it only adds together your secondary stats that aren't your highest. So say you have 7000 crit, 5000 haste and 1500 mastery. When the trinket procs, you -5000 haste -1500 mastery and +6500 CRIT, which in this case would still be worth nearly 10% crit.

    Never mind, I re-read what you wrote, you're fine. But I'm also not sure it counts mastery buff, if it does that would be pretty baller.
    This caught my eye...short term crit procs, no matter really how much they are, are pretty terrible for auto attack crit EB generation. In This post I showed that 10.2% crit over 20 seconds only gain you 2.75 EB charges per proc. Unless you can stack stats to get stupid amounts, like 40% or more, auto attack crits aren't going to make or break a trinket choice in terms of temporary crit rating.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2013-02-22 at 07:31 PM.

  4. #2444
    Pandaren Monk Sunnydee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't really change hit, but in this case Neffrolla, you can. Do the following reforges: -SNIP-
    did u sim this or? if so when? logged in dps specc/gear before today

  5. #2445
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    This caught my eye...short term crit procs, no matter really how much they are, are pretty terrible for auto attack crit EB generation. In This post I showed that 10.2% crit over 20 seconds only gain you 2.75 EB charges per proc. Unless you can stack stats to get stupid amounts, like 40% or more, auto attack crits aren't going to make or break a trinket choice in terms of temporary crit rating.
    Not to mention that the trinket encourages some odd gearing for tanks. Even with the mastery buff in 5.2, the modeling I have seen shows that it is not as valuable as haste/crit for pure mitigation (outside of some dread thrash type 1-shot abilities). If you are stacking haste/crit/mastery at roughly equal levels (best use of the trinket) you are doing yourself a disservice for overall mitigation.

  6. #2446
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggety View Post
    Even with the mastery buff in 5.2, the modeling I have seen shows that it is not as valuable as haste/crit for pure mitigation (outside of some dread thrash type 1-shot abilities). If you are stacking haste/crit/mastery at roughly equal levels (best use of the trinket) you are doing yourself a disservice for overall mitigation.
    Unless they buff mastery so you can easily get > 12% extra stagger by stacking it then Mastery will still be mostly dead to us thanks to the 2P bonus encouraging getting as much Crit as possible. You'll see people sporting the LFR tokens until they can be replaced with normal+ tier drops.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  7. #2447
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    This caught my eye...short term crit procs, no matter really how much they are, are pretty terrible for auto attack crit EB generation. In This post I showed that 10.2% crit over 20 seconds only gain you 2.75 EB charges per proc. Unless you can stack stats to get stupid amounts, like 40% or more, auto attack crits aren't going to make or break a trinket choice in terms of temporary crit rating.
    Sure, but you're comparing a 483 moderate crit trinket to an omfg 522+ CRIT trinket.

    At 0.92 RPPM, you can expect about 1.5 procs per minute.

    Currently my brm is around ~5k crit, 8k mastery, 2k haste @ ilvl 505 with two passive agi trinkets. If I shuffled (no pun intended) things around, I could get 7k crit 6500 mastery 2k haste. The trinket would provide 17k crit ~= 30% crit chance ~= 4 EB charges per proc ~= 6 EB charges per minute. With 2piece T15, that's 12 extra seconds per minute that you're under either elusive brew or an extra 12% mastery - not a trivial amount of time.

    But wait, when we're attempting the harder heroic modes, I'd expect to be around 20 ilvls higher with something along the lines of 12k crit 11k mastery 2k haste for a whopping 26k crit boost every time the trinket procs for nearly a ~45% crit boost - we're straight up crit capping here and likely pushing some miss off the combat table if we're dual wielding too. This'll result in roughly 18 seconds of either EB or 2pT15 uptime extra per minute which pushes us past the point of either having elusive brew or 2pT15 up 99% of the time, which is likely seriously difficult to accomplish with "normal" trinkets.

    That's a huge game changer if you're able to ensure a ~30% damage redux (the extra 12% stagger) or ~80% avoidance up any given time you're tanking vs them just being cooldowns.

    Not to mention sporting a 90% crit rate when the trinket procs is pretty damn awesome for tank dps, which is likely to (again, sigh) be higher than actual damage dealers' during progression.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-02-22 at 08:58 PM.

  8. #2448
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    So without the 4P are you comfortable on PTR with only 2k haste? A lot of the above assumptions are based around needing a very very low level of haste which I can understand with the 4P but what about without it?

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  9. #2449
    Quote Originally Posted by SurrealNight View Post
    So without the 4P are you comfortable on PTR with only 2k haste? A lot of the above assumptions are based around needing a very very low level of haste which I can understand with the 4P but what about without it?
    I've always been a haste hater since day one. I've tanked all current content with my alt monk with 2xxx haste with 100% shuffle uptime so I don't envision having any issues next tier either, even before 4pT15.

    Regardless, having more haste only makes the trinket more powerful:

    In my example, I had 12k crit 11k mastery 2k haste and my proc was 26k crit. If instead we had: 10k crit 9k mastery 6k haste, then the proc would be 30k crit, an even higher amount. I'd suspect given the right stat shuffling via reforges, you can get 100% crit rate during trinket procs without too much of an issue by ilvl 525-530.

    Alternatively, something funny you could do is to make mastery the higher stat, and with well-balanced secondaries you could hit exp soft cap and 100% stagger during trinket proc at around ilvl 530-535. Dream tank during trinket procs .... entirety of incoming damage is dealt via dot. Sadly, it's a random proc but still, would be amazing to see, hah.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-02-22 at 09:37 PM.

  10. #2450
    The Lightbringer SurrealNight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Regardless, having more haste only makes the trinket more powerful:
    Interesting, I would most likely go for the later scenario with more haste as I like to purify a bit more than you do probably. Plus would probably want to get ahead a little on Chi for the times where you technically have 0 haste.

    The four elements, like man alone, are weak. But together they form the strong fifth element: Boron.

  11. #2451
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    I've always been a haste hater since day one. I've tanked all current content with my alt monk with 2xxx haste with 100% shuffle uptime so I don't envision having any issues next tier either, even before 4pT15.

    Regardless, having more haste only makes the trinket more powerful:

    In my example, I had 12k crit 11k mastery 2k haste and my proc was 26k crit. If instead we had: 10k crit 9k mastery 6k haste, then the proc would be 30k crit, an even higher amount. I'd suspect given the right stat shuffling via reforges, you can get 100% crit rate during trinket procs without too much of an issue by ilvl 525-530.

    Alternatively, something funny you could do is to make mastery the higher stat, and with well-balanced secondaries you could hit exp soft cap and 100% stagger during trinket proc at around ilvl 530-535. Dream tank during trinket procs .... entirety of incoming damage is dealt via dot. Sadly, it's a random proc but still, would be amazing to see, hah.
    Armory? When you say current content, what are we talking about? LFR? Normals? Heroics?

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  12. #2452
    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    Armory? When you say current content, what are we talking about? LFR? Normals? Heroics?
    Heroic Sha/Heroic Elite Protectors - 25.

    I started last week actually around ilvl 494
    Currently ilvl 505

  13. #2453
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Let's put some more accurate numbers on this.
    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Sure, but you're comparing a 483 moderate crit trinket to an omfg 522+ CRIT trinket.
    I'm comparing temporary crit rating, that is all.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    At 0.92 RPPM, you can expect about 1.5 procs per minute.
    You can expect .92 times your haste per minute. Nothing more nothing less. A small number in RPPM is a bad thing...it means less procs. 4520 haste gives you 10%, so .92*1.1 gives you 1.012 procs per minute.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Currently my brm is around ~5k crit, 8k mastery, 2k haste @ ilvl 505 with two passive agi trinkets. If I shuffled (no pun intended) things around, I could get 7k crit 6500 mastery 2k haste. The trinket would provide 17k crit ~= 30% crit chance ~= 4 EB charges per proc ~= 6 EB charges per minute. With 2piece T15, that's 12 extra seconds per minute that you're under either elusive brew or an extra 12% mastery - not a trivial amount of time.

    But wait, when we're attempting the harder heroic modes, I'd expect to be around 20 ilvls higher with something along the lines of 12k crit 11k mastery 2k haste for a whopping 26k crit boost every time the trinket procs for nearly a ~45% crit boost - we're straight up crit capping here and likely pushing some miss off the combat table if we're dual wielding too. This'll result in roughly 18 seconds of either EB or 2pT15 uptime extra per minute which pushes us past the point of either having elusive brew or 2pT15 up 99% of the time, which is likely seriously difficult to accomplish with "normal" trinkets.
    You're math is a bit wonky, so I'll use some generic numbers. The 5 normal tier 14 pieces have 8405 secondary stat points on them if you include a crit meta and 320 in all the gem sockets, but not counting socket bonuses. The 5 heroic pieces have 9321, a 10.9% increase on 13 ilvls, or about .84% more stats per ilvl. I'm going to use Gynshon's numbers since you don't supply your armory. With hit and exp at 7.5 Gynshon has just under 17k points split between haste, crit, and mastery in ilvl 511. At 522 he would likely have 9.24% more stats, or just under 19000 points to play with after taking 7.5/7.5 again. Let's also assume for the sake of this math that absolute minimum you can put into a stat is 2k. If he were to go 9k crit, 8k haste, 2k mastery he would get 20k crit for 10 seconds, 33.3% crit for 10 seconds would get you about 4 extra EB charges per proc.


    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    That's a huge game changer if you're able to ensure a ~30% damage redux (the extra 12% stagger) or ~80% avoidance up any given time you're tanking vs them just being cooldowns.

    Not to mention sporting a 90% crit rate when the trinket procs is pretty damn awesome for tank dps, which is likely to (again, sigh) be higher than actual damage dealers' during progression.
    You're not goint to get 90% crit, just not gonna happen. Even stacking stats ideally you would be around 70%, which is approaching the crit cap and would start being wasted stats.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2013-02-22 at 11:02 PM.

  14. #2454
    You can expect .92 times your haste per minute. Nothing more nothing less. A small number in RPPM is a bad thing...it means less procs. 4520 haste gives you 10%, so .92*1.1 gives you 1.012 procs per minute.
    This doesn't line up with what I see in raids. Heroism, 10% attack speed buff, and fence posting all contribute to higher than expected RPPM values. I took a look at some brewmaster parses using 2H weapons (leery of dual wield results with the high miss chance and all) and it definitely looked like they were getting 3+ dancing steel procs per minute when dancing steel is a 2 RPPM enchant.

    You're math is a bit wonky, so I'll use some generic numbers. The 5 normal tier 14 pieces have 8405 secondary stat points on them if you include a crit meta and 320 in all the gem sockets, but not counting socket bonuses. The 5 heroic pieces have 9321, a 10.9% increase on 13 ilvls, or about .84% more stats per ilvl. I'm going to use Gynshon's numbers since you don't supply your armory. With hit and exp at 7.5 Gynshon has just under 17k points split between haste, crit, and mastery in ilvl 511. At 522 he would likely have 9.24% more stats, or just under 19000 points to play with after taking 7.5/7.5 again. Let's also assume for the sake of this math that absolute minimum you can put into a stat is 2k. If he were to go 9k crit, 8k haste, 2k mastery he would get 20k crit for 10 seconds, 33.3% crit for 10 seconds would get you about 8 extra EB charges per proc.
    My numbers were basically educated guesses on my part, but I don't think they're off by much. My armory is linked above, and here again. I am also including the 3k mastery you get from blessing of might as well, not to mention any other possible random haste procs.

    Your numbers aren't complete either. For simplicity, lets say Gynshon has 22k stats total including hit/exp, and I was assuming around ilvl 525 while working on something like heroic Lei-Shen so it's about 12% more. So grand total of around 24.6k stats + 3k from might = 27.6k. After exp/hit, lets just round that to around 23k stats to work with. So instead of my guestimated values of 12/11/2, I have to work with 11/10/2. Not a horrible estimate ... (also, I think I might just pick up another 640 stats from going blacksmithing so there's that, and neither of us included around 500 stats worth of socket bonuses too, but w/e)

    You're not goint to get 90% crit, just not gonna happen. Even stacking stats ideally you would be around 70%, which is approaching the crit cap and would start being wasted stats.
    The actual crit % doesn't matter, again it's just "oh hey a very large and significant portions of my attacks are going to crit" sort of thing.

    Also, as far as I know, combat table goes something like:

    24% glancing
    [crit%] crit
    [miss%] miss
    [whatever's left%] hit

    Normally, crit is low enough that even at the usual 7.5% hit cap, most people have 19% dual wield miss rate. When that trinket procs though (lets say 70%), your crit will shoot up so high that you're going to end up 24% glancing, 70% crit, 6% miss, 0% hit - effectively pushing 13% miss right off the table. While crit beyond 76% is slightly wasted in that you don't get any extra damage from autoattacks, your specials - the lion's share of your damage - certainly get the benefit and you gained a free 19% hit if you're DW anyway.
    Last edited by kaiadam; 2013-02-22 at 11:31 PM.

  15. #2455
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Real PPM works on your melee, ranged, or spell haste, not attack speed. During Bloodlust you are likely to get an extra proc, and a fence posting error would give you 1 more proc per fight, but you are not going to consistently get 3 ppm off a 2 Real ppm enchant without significant amounts of haste on your gear. DW also has absolutely no affect on Real ppm.

    There was a blue post saying that the 3k mastery buff does not actually count towards rune.

    The actual crit number does matter. If you take 7.5/7.5 for hit and exp any crit over 68.5% is completely wasted points. Why would you purposefully gear in such a way that would most likely be deemed suboptimal to begin with only to waste even more points on a proc you can't take full use of.

  16. #2456
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Real PPM works on your melee, ranged, or spell haste, not attack speed. During Bloodlust you are likely to get an extra proc, and a fence posting error would give you 1 more proc per fight, but you are not going to consistently get 3 ppm off a 2 Real ppm enchant without significant amounts of haste on your gear. DW also has absolutely no affect on Real ppm.
    2 extra procs in a 6 min fight that you expect 6 or 7 procs from is basically 1.5 ppm.

    There was a blue post saying that the 3k mastery buff does not actually count towards rune.
    Well, poop.

    The actual crit number does matter. If you take 7.5/7.5 for hit and exp any crit over 68.5% is completely wasted points. Why would you purposefully gear in such a way that would most likely be deemed suboptimal to begin with only to waste even more points on a proc you can't take full use of.
    Because in the grand scheme of things, I care more about a lot of stuff than purely Elusive Brew charges -like dps, and crit is pretty win for dps. The trinket will carry me to basically full brew/2pt15 uptime so I'm perfectly satisfied already.

    Also, my ideal gearing scenario is basically 1:1:0 crit/mastery:haste so it's not as if I'm going out of my way to make it good for the rune - if I were I'd do something like 1.1:1:1. I just mentioned those various numbers as a possible farm time fun stat.

  17. #2457
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiadam View Post
    Because in the grand scheme of things, I care more about a lot of stuff than purely Elusive Brew charges -like dps, and crit is pretty win for dps. The trinket will carry me to basically full brew/2pt15 uptime so I'm perfectly satisfied already.

    Also, my ideal gearing scenario is basically 1:1:0 crit/mastery:haste so it's not as if I'm going out of my way to make it good for the rune - if I were I'd do something like 1.1:1:1. I just mentioned those various numbers as a possible farm time fun stat.
    Why not just go full crit then if dps is what you are caring more about? Mastery does nothing for dps. Hard capping exp is a bigger dps increase than crit point for point why not do that? I just feel this trinket is much better served by passing it to a dps who can game it and get 100% use out of it rather than 50% or less use out of it like BrM can.

  18. #2458
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    Why not just go full crit then if dps is what you are caring more about? Mastery does nothing for dps. Hard capping exp is a bigger dps increase than crit point for point why not do that? I just feel this trinket is much better served by passing it to a dps who can game it and get 100% use out of it rather than 50% or less use out of it like BrM can.
    I'm exp hard capping, mastery (and possible stam) is for EH, crit is for whatever is left. If crit ends up being lower than the mastery I deem I need to survive, then sure, no real use of this trinket. If crit ends up being higher though, having this trinket on a brewmaster will likely end up being more overall raid dps than any other spec with the possible exception of a windwalker (any other classes out there who can game mastery as much? I don't pay attention to any more than like a dozen or so specs).

    And having either EB or 2pT15 up all the time is a significant survival increase. Even if we were able to get 40% EB uptime, that last 20% where no EB or 2pT15 (sheesh, this is clunky, we need a name for EB + 2pT15) is a killer. There's a significant difference between 80% and 100% shuffle uptime, for instance. A huge and significant one.

  19. #2459
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    1) If you are hard capping exp you are not going to have near the numbers you were claiming earlier since you're dropping another 2550 stats into exp.
    2) Even with the mastery buffs stam is better EH than mastery.
    3) If you are stacking that much mastery you are going to lose shuffle uptime b/c you are going to have to be purifying like mad and your tiny amount of haste is not going to be able to keep up with it.
    3a) If that is the case you are just letting your healers carry you.
    4) Stacking crit to the max, followed by haste, will net you more dps and EB charges.
    5) Any spec that has 2 stats close to each other in value can game this trinket, not just mastery lovers. BM hunters come to mind just off the top of my head, there are others.
    5a) Why is tank dps such an issue all of a sudden? You're a tank. You take hits. Let the dps worry about killing shit.
    6) You can already get 40% EB uptime in current gear.
    7) No EB and no 2 piece is not a killer.

  20. #2460
    given 40% uptime on EB, you will have (if using @15stacks for simplicity), 15sec EB, 15sec mastery, and 7.5sec "without". however if you reaaally want something to stick there. put a guard, which covers usually 2-3 hits. and your set.

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