The Brewmaster Tanking Guide [5.4]

[The Madgod]

I’d like to hear some opinions behind these thoughts. I’m not entirely sold on switching to Mastery or anything like that over my current set-up. But I do see Going FULL 100% Mastery on Gara’jal the Spiritbinder.. Purifying Brew all the incoming raid damage.. No other tank will provide better survivability than a full mastery BM monk for that fight on heroic.

Uh... stagger doesn't mitigate magic damage. Mastery on Gara'jal is useless for a good portion of that encounter, aside from the last 20%, which can just be mitigated by tank swapping and cooldowns.

[prestilence]

As sometimes stated here, DW can even out procs (Elu Brew / GotO) because of the faster attack speed, but it shouldn't be a really big difference. I personally use 2H, mostly because our raid has two ele shaman and no feral / guardian druid and no other WW/BrM so far, so I'm the only one getting the 2H agi weapons. Though it's only my second spec, so I'm not really familiar / good at it.
And a question for the better tanks here: What's your opinion on shuffle uptime vs heal? I only tanked 10 man so far (25 man raids were starting yesterday and we've got enough tanks for that), and it seemed to me that Chi Burst or Zen Sphere, depending on positioning, can do a massive amount of healing for your raid with vengeance stacked. E.g. on Elegon I healed for about 8M only in the last phase with Chi Burst, our tactic was that our warrior did all the tanking and I only taunted once in between Elegons Breath for him to reset stacks, but didn't use BoK at all and was regenerating Chi for the next Chi Burst. Or on Feng I used Zen Sphere detonations in P2 / P3, which was extremely reducing my shuffle uptime, but was healing for ~ 40k HPS in the fight, about 40% Zen Sphere detonation and 25% Chi Torpedo. Which is the next question: Is it really not worth taking that to support your healers, especially on fights where you have tanking downtimes? Since everyone seems to love Xuen or RWJ.
Is the healing done worth the more damage taken, especially in 25 man?

I would honestly say situation dictates... In 25 man, healing shouldn't be an issue, but the zen sphere detonates are by far to amazing to look past especially for Feng. But were doing 25 heroic and on my tank, you really have to throw your expel harm into your rotation... And I suggest "Healing Elixirs" 100,000 % every 15 seconds heal, and expel harm is 15 seconds. So if you figure you do a purifying brew once every 15 seconds (which WILL happen, lol) and then jab-jab- then expel harm- jab-jab- expel harm... That really becomes your rotation.. since expel harm, does more damage than jab, costs the same energy, and gives the same Chi, using it OFF CD to replace Jab is definitely a must. But for like.. Heroic 25 "Stone Guard" Dont use Zen Sphere- or any of your lvl 30 talents... You will be taking to much damage you honestly will have moderate staggers almost everytime you regen 2 Chi... So you will barely be able to keep up shuffle 90-100% and keeping up elusive brews/ and guards with the Chi you will be getting on top of using any downtime Chi for Purifying brew.

---------- Post added 2012-10-11 at 02:50 PM ----------

Uh... stagger doesn't mitigate magic damage. Mastery on Gara'jal is useless for a good portion of that encounter, aside from the last 20%, which can just be mitigated by tank swapping and cooldowns.

When Blood legion killed it their BM was 1% hit/ 1%exp and FULL mastery.. and never dipped below 80% and was literally spamming Purifying brew. And compared to the other guilds who downed him that didnt use BM's, made those tanks looked like a disc priest tank in comparison.

[towelliee]

I went pretty much 7.5% hit and expertise, and then mass haste, landed at about 15% haste or so, 22% crit, and barely any mastery nor dodge. I was tanking 2 dogs for all of Stone Guard (unfortunately didn't get him down, but it was really close - going down tomorrow for sure), because we found out that I was much easier to heal than our DK (who, just for the record, does nothing wrong) - I was taking less damage while tanking 2 dogs, and I had a rather high uptime on Elusive Brew I felt, and I wasn't really dropping too much, wipes were not because of tank deaths. I was worried when people said that they were getting their faces smashed in on heroic modes, but I didn't feel any of that today on SG HC.

Might want to check WOL to make sure you're taking less dmg with 2 dogs. I thought the same looking at Skada/recount until we checked WOL later and found out I was taking more dmg with 2 dogs. This was on normal.

[The Madgod]

When Blood legion killed it their BM was 1% hit/ 1%exp and FULL mastery.. and never dipped below 80% and was literally spamming Purifying brew. And compared to the other guilds who downed him that didnt use BM's, made those tanks looked like a disc priest tank in comparison.

How was healer mana? Because pure mastery, even with spamming PB, is a lot of damage taken... It's simply smoothed out somewhat. Just because it worked for a bleeding edge guild does not mean that it will work for others and I would NOT recommend going in that direction.

[towelliee]

World of Logs for my best Heroic Stone Guard attempt 15%

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=10569&e=10998

Any feedback would be great. Looks like I had a good Shuffle uptime, Guard was good. Elusive brew seems low, even though I am 15% exp and 7% hit. I think I need to go Healing Elixirs or improve my self heals.

[SurrealNight]

When Blood legion killed it their BM was 1% hit/ 1%exp and FULL mastery.. and never dipped below 80% and was literally spamming Purifying brew. And compared to the other guilds who downed him that didnt use BM's, made those tanks looked like a disc priest tank in comparison.

Based on his gear what % of melee damage was he Staggering with that much mastery? Seems the misses/dodge/parry's would be maddening to deal with.

I assume he was still trying to keep shuffle up or wasn't even bothering that much?

[prestilence]

How was healer mana? Because pure mastery, even with spamming PB, is a lot of damage taken... It's simply smoothed out somewhat. Just because it worked for a bleeding edge guild does not mean that it will work for others and I would NOT recommend going in that direction.

I agree, I'm not saying it's "the way to go" im just trying to base my theories off to why they did it that way, and how it worked so well for them.. And what else that tanking strat could possibly apply to down the road. I don't mean literally spamming PB, he was still keeping up shuffle and elusive s, guards n such pretty consistently.

[The Madgod]

Based on his gear what % of melee damage was he Staggering with that much mastery? Seems the misses/dodge/parry's would be maddening to deal with.

I assume he was still trying to keep shuffle up or wasn't even bothering that much?

If he's going pure mastery, then he's probably got so little chi for shuffle that the uptime for it is terrible. And yeah, I REALLY don't think that that is the best way to go. Mastery stacking is only for bleeding edge content and is extremely dependent on top notch healing.

[prestilence]

Well they dont ever post their Logs.. but when i was watching the Live stream I noticed his rotation was primarily (jab-BoK-x3 Tiger power(100% of the fight) so i assume he had 3pt guards off CD everytime) then every CD he would use expel harm > jab and on average ever 4-5 seconds was using Purifying brew.. and had powerstrikes, and healing elixirs for talents.

[The Madgod]

I agree, I'm not saying it's "the way to go" im just trying to base my theories off to why they did it that way, and how it worked so well for them.. And what else that tanking strat could possibly apply to down the road. I don't mean literally spamming PB, he was still keeping up shuffle and elusive s, guards n such pretty consistently.

Then he wasn't going pure mastery, he had to have had a good chunk of haste in order to be able to consistently keep up shuffle, EB, and guard in addition to the extra PB's.

The reason so many bleeding edge brewmasters went with lots of mastery is because it provides EH. They know full well that they are going to die due to circumstances outside of their control on some of their pulls. It's to make up for the fact that they have little gear.

[prestilence]

If he's going pure mastery, then he's probably got so little chi for shuffle that the uptime for it is terrible. And yeah, I REALLY don't think that that is the best way to go. Mastery stacking is only for bleeding edge content and is extremely dependent on top notch healing.

Again, I agree. But he was getting some good power strikes that seemed to save him guaranteed every 20 secs.. so it wouldnt be too hard (with practice) to nail a rotation that keeps up a good portion of shuffle and PBs every 4-5 secs or so.. but with that much mastery.. 4-5 isnt anything.. so it could be balanced in that aspect compared to haste builds.. but maybe just specific to that fight?

[Judgement27]

Again, I agree. But he was getting some good power strikes that seemed to save him guaranteed every 20 secs.. so it wouldnt be too hard (with practice) to nail a rotation that keeps up a good portion of shuffle and PBs every 4-5 secs or so.. but with that much mastery.. 4-5 isnt anything.. so it could be balanced in that aspect compared to haste builds.. but maybe just specific to that fight?

This is the same type of argument that many people used when Sejta from Paragon stacked 100% all stam as a Bear all throughout Cata. It doesn't make him right. At the end of the day stacking full Agility was actually better overall.

This remains the same for Brewmasters current state, stacking mastery is great for killing things at a very fast pace and provide better damage control, but it doesn't lower the amount of damage you are taking. If you want a good buffer for your healers, by all means go ahead and use mastery and stam, but at the end of the day you will likely be taking more damage than I am.

[Bodakane]

I've read through most of the thread and didn't see a definitive answer to this:

Does Dampen Harm work on magic damage or just physical?

[Monteverdi]

This is the same type of argument that many people used when Sejta from Paragon stacked 100% all stam as a Bear all throughout Cata. It doesn't make him right. At the end of the day stacking full Agility was actually better overall.

This remains the same for Brewmasters current state, stacking mastery is great for killing things at a very fast pace and provide better damage control, but it doesn't lower the amount of damage you are taking. If you want a good buffer for your healers, by all means go ahead and use mastery and stam, but at the end of the day you will likely be taking more damage than I am.

This is the age old argument of whether or not to focus on effective health. Effective health maximizes your time alive in the worst possible scenario (no avoided attacks, no heals, etc.), which is arguably the best way to go when at the bleeding edge of content, when gear levels are low and experience with the specific encounters is low. EH vs. Avoidance has been a hotly debated topic going back all the way to when Warriors were the only effective tanking class in the game.

When applying the principle to monks, it's probably the most convoluted of all the tank classes due to how much of our defenses are active, relying on hits and even crits to maximize our uptime. While it's correct to say that that just because a person is in a top guild doesn't mean that they're right to stack EH versus the active abilities, it doesn't mean they're wrong either.

[The Madgod]

This is the age old argument of whether or not to focus on effective health. Effective health maximizes your time alive in the worst possible scenario (no avoided attacks, no heals, etc.), which is arguably the best way to go when at the bleeding edge of content, when gear levels are low and experience with the specific encounters is low. EH vs. Avoidance has been a hotly debated topic going back all the way to when Warriors were the only effective tanking class in the game.

When applying the principle to monks, it's probably the most convoluted of all the tank classes due to how much of our defenses are active, relying on hits and even crits to maximize our uptime. While it's correct to say that that just because a person is in a top guild doesn't mean that they're right to stack EH versus the active abilities, it doesn't mean they're wrong either.

They aren't wrong, but it is the wrong way to go for the majority of the rest of us for the majority of the time. Most of us are better off not bothering to max out mastery.

[Monteverdi]

They aren't wrong, but it is the wrong way to go for the majority of the rest of us for the majority of the time. Most of us are better off not bothering to max out mastery.

I don't disagree. Stacking EH is really only something that should be done during a specific period of time for a specific portion of players who are pushing the bleeding edge of PVE content, IMO.

[The Madgod]

I don't disagree. Stacking EH is really only something that should be done during a specific period of time for a specific portion of players who are pushing the bleeding edge of PVE content, IMO.

Oh I know, but I feel reinforcing an idea is important when we're looking at these guys.

I've read through most of the thread and didn't see a definitive answer to this:

Does Dampen Harm work on magic damage or just physical?

Considering the wording, I believe it's mainly physical, and that's what you should pick it up for.

[prestilence]

This is the age old argument of whether or not to focus on effective health. Effective health maximizes your time alive in the worst possible scenario (no avoided attacks, no heals, etc.), which is arguably the best way to go when at the bleeding edge of content, when gear levels are low and experience with the specific encounters is low. EH vs. Avoidance has been a hotly debated topic going back all the way to when Warriors were the only effective tanking class in the game.

When applying the principle to monks, it's probably the most convoluted of all the tank classes due to how much of our defenses are active, relying on hits and even crits to maximize our uptime. While it's correct to say that that just because a person is in a top guild doesn't mean that they're right to stack EH versus the active abilities, it doesn't mean they're wrong either.

Correct, but it just kinda strikes me as "why would they do this for this particular fight?" and was there a better effect to taking what we believe to be the worst stat compared to taking the agi/ hit/ exp/ haste build.

[towelliee]

Any feedback?

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=10569&e=10998

[fizzbob]

4.1 is slightly nerfing BWM at this point. on a fight or two, bwm survivability is already the worst of the tanks and that's exactly what's being nerfed. don't really get this. rather them take some dps and buff ox stance