1. #2001
    Quote Originally Posted by Curdle View Post
    Full comparisons? There are a minority of voices in this thread who are looking at things in a balanced manner, they're completely drowned out by the loud screeching about Capacitor totem's limitations.
    there are none

    Lets assume you're 100% right and Capacitor totem will prove worthless in arena (you're not, but lets assume.)
    I havent commented on how strong Capacitor is strong or not at all in this discussion, but nice jumping to conclusions

    In that case shaman only have a stun if you're using the Primal Elementalist earth elemental. Oh woe is them. Now they're forced to rely on merely:
    • A multitude of snares,
    • Potential roots,
    • Ranged CC,
    • A survival cooldown or two (depending on talents),
    • Reliable, frequent self healing, (Whether healing surge or HST)
    • An on demand speed boost whenever required, for however long it is required.
    • High burst potential
    • Truly monstrous new cooldown (Ascendance)


    And that's before we get into the spec specific stuff like elemental being able to cast on the move and possessing Thunderstorm, or enhancement being a melee that partially ignores armour.

    Before we all go Chicken Little about how the new toy isn't what we wanted and we may as well fling it out of the pram it might be a good idea to consider the totality of the class and it's wide range of abilities in PvP? Perhaps in that context a stun that doesn't always work exactly as you want it to is not the end of the world?
    Dunno what you are trying to point out here, I havent commented on PvP, arenas or RBGs and shaman viability either. All Im pointing out, that this theat is full of hyporicsy from both sides, not just one.

  2. #2002
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protoman View Post
    This is totally wrong. Here is a repost of the list I made a few pages back:

    Warrior Shockwave- (4sec stun, 20sec cd) Instant aoe cone
    Monk Leg Sweep-(5 sec stun/knockdown, 25sec cd) Instant aoe
    Lock Shadowfury- (3sec stun, 30sec cd) Instant
    DK Remorse Winter- (6sec stun, 1 min cd) Takes 5 sec to stun but an aura around the DK so he can follow you

    Some other similar aoe CC:
    Priest Psychic Scream- (8 sec fear, 30sec cd) Instant, 5 targets
    Lock Howl of Terror- (8+sec fear, 40sec cd) Instant, 5 targets
    Warrior Intim Shout- (8 sec fear, 1min cd) Instant, 6 targets

    Almost every other AOE stun in the game is instant, unavoidable, and on a short cd. Our CPT takes 5 sec to work, can be killed or avoided by running out of range, and is on a longer cd then other aoe stuns. It makes it inferior in almost every aspect. I would gladly sacrifice 1-2 sec on the stun if it was almost instant or had a much shorter cd. Its weaknesses heavily outweigh it's minor "strength" of 5 sec stun.
    And just like when you listed that before, comparing AoE stuns to AoE fears is not a reasonable comparison. Fears have a LOT of weaknesses stuns don't have. At least you removed the AoE root you'd included the first time.

    Nobody's claiming CPT is the best stun in the game. Just that the charge-up is balanced out by the large AoE and long duration of the stun.

    I ask you, what is the ADVANTAGE to having a totem version of a spell over a regular one? What is the SIGNATURE feature of totems?
    You can center abilities on your totems, rather than on you, which has uses for positioning purposes. And sure, for the most part it's a restriction. So? It doesn't NEED to bring advantages. What advantages does dual wielding give for Fury Warriors? It doesn't give them double DPS. It means they need more hit rating to not miss. It means they need twice as many weapons to upgrade, and to enchant both.

    Killing totems should be possible, but why does it have to be easy? Killing a totem in the past took alot more effort then it does now with replacing it alot easier then with the longer cd's we have now. We have also gained some totems that are important to our overall effectiveness. They removed cleansing and tremor to make it harder to easily negate other classes important effects, what has been done to make it harder to negate our totem effects? They should atleast require 2 instants to kill IMO.
    They need to be easy to kill because if they're too hard to kill, nobody would bother. If it takes you two GCDs to kill a Capacitor Totem, that's ~1.5s per GCD, meaning you're running close to the glyphed timer. Haste reduces that slightly, but human reaction time increases it. That means killing it is risky, so instead you'll just move away. Killing it stops being a reasonable choice.

    And no, it's MUCH harder today than it was in the past to kill totems. Prior to patch 3.2, if there were a decent hunter or warlock on the other team, you could not drop totems. They would die as soon as they spawned. With zero effort required and almost no DPS loss on the part of the player. Stoneclaw Totem never made it all that hard to kill totems, either. At 80-85, it was a 4k shield, which was still one normal instant attack by basically anyone. A dual wielder might not kill it with an offhand attack, but it wouldn't make it challenging.

    And lastly; we didn't lose Tremor Totem. It still exists, and if anything is a more powerful version, especially for PvP. The old version was stomped by anyone who had a fear, and could be stomped even if you were feared, before it could tick. The old version was only "better" if you were facing someone who spammed fears and never stomped totems.

  3. #2003
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Because we're Shaman.

    Don't like relatively fragile totems? Wrong class to play, since that's our fundamental class-defining mechanic.
    Totems are our class defining mechanic. No one said anywhere that they had to be fragile though. They happen to be fragile, yes (and that since classic). But never was it said that it couldn't change at one point.

    Again I have to bring forward warrior stances. Aren't they as much a fundamental, class-defining mechanic? With their restrictions to not charge in berserker stance and not intercept in battle stance? Do we still have that crap? NO?! Removed in MoP. Stances are still their, but crappy and limiting aspects of stances are gone.

    Honestly I see no reason as to why outdated totems are fine, while outdated stances are not and get improved.
    Or what about hunter pets? Pet Loyality, having to tame pets to lern abilities and all that stuff. Was it broken? NO?! Or hunters having to use a quiver and ammo. Was that broken? NO?! All of that were class defining traits, which were taken out.

    We had this discussion already, and really, if something is bad you can run away from the problem and say: "It's always been like that, have to deal with that", or "I dont like this, someone has to do something about this. I'll voice my opinion, maybe I'm heard".
    Totems by themselves are a nice mechanic, the old restrictions are not.
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  4. #2004
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Totems are our class defining mechanic. No one said anywhere that they had to be fragile though. They happen to be fragile, yes (and that since classic). But never was it said that it couldn't change at one point.

    Again I have to bring forward warrior stances. Aren't they as much a fundamental, class-defining mechanic? With their restrictions to not charge in berserker stance and not intercept in battle stance? Do we still have that crap? NO?! Removed in MoP. Stances are still their, but crappy and limiting aspects of stances are gone.
    And honestly, I don't like that change. For much the same reasons as I like totems pretty close to as they are.

    Every class needs weak points. That should be the goal. The idea with group play would be to get other players strong where you are not, and where you can make up for their weaknesses in turn.

  5. #2005
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Every class needs weak points. That should be the goal.
    sign ... i just want to stun people ;-) that's all ...

  6. #2006
    Epic! Dave131's Avatar
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    So have they raised the level cap to 90 yet on Beta? Has anyone gotten to test the level 90 talents yet?
    “Alcohol may be man's worst enemy, but the bible says love your enemy." ~Frank Sinatra

  7. #2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave131 View Post
    So have they raised the level cap to 90 yet on Beta? Has anyone gotten to test the level 90 talents yet?
    Nope. As far as I'm aware, the cap is 88 (at least it was the other day).

  8. #2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Interestingly, Monks and Warriors have totem like abilities that aren't as easy to kill. I'm pretty sure the monk statues are unkillable, and the warrior banners carry 33% of the warriors health.

    This begs the question; Why are totems so fragile when similar abilities are so much more durable.
    Because we can put a lot of them down, over and over again?

    Killing a totem is just a unique way of interrupting or dispelling our abilities. Every class has a spell interrupt, only some have dispels, but every class is capable of killing our totems (and effectively "dispelling", if you will, whatever thing the totem grants). In return for this we get one of the best interrupts in the game (Wind Shear) and Purge.

  9. #2009
    I am Murloc! Luko's Avatar
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    While choosing not to jump into the uberfun semantics-bashing party here, I'll simply say that while it's up for debate whether or not they've changed the efficiency of the class (specifically enhancement) they've definitely neglected to add anything to it that makes one jump out of his chair in excitement. Other classes are changing forms or getting perma wings or gaining cool vanity abilities or just becoming all around more fun.

    We, however, have been gifted with giant gaps of nothing in our rotation and glyphs/talents that represent abilities we get on live now anyway. My plan was to main enhancement this xpac like I've been wanting to do forever now, but it's just extremely hard to get motivated for it. Hell I find myself more motivated to play classes I don't even have, thanks to their extremely interesting updates and our lack-there-of.

    Also, I'm not buying the "play another class" line. Of course that's always the case, but when an overwhelming majority of the shaman playerbase is already saying the same things I am, weeks and even months before me and it still hasn't changed, I no longer accept that it's my failing to be interested and it's up to me to play something else. There's obviously issues.
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  10. #2010
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TecPontificates View Post
    Because we can put a lot of them down, over and over again?

    Killing a totem is just a unique way of interrupting or dispelling our abilities. Every class has a spell interrupt, only some have dispels, but every class is capable of killing our totems (and effectively "dispelling", if you will, whatever thing the totem grants). In return for this we get one of the best interrupts in the game (Wind Shear) and Purge.
    Four tops, and given that now the majority of them are cooldowns, we can't put them down over and over again.

    I suppose I'm just not seeing the huge difference between a totem that heals the most injured ally nearby, and a statue that heals someone nearby everytime you do damage.

  11. #2011
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    While choosing not to jump into the uberfun semantics-bashing party here, I'll simply say that while it's up for debate whether or not they've changed the efficiency of the class (specifically enhancement) they've definitely neglected to add anything to it that makes one jump out of his chair in excitement. Other classes are changing forms or getting perma wings or gaining cool vanity abilities or just becoming all around more fun.

    We, however, have been gifted with giant gaps of nothing in our rotation and glyphs/talents that represent abilities we get on live now anyway. My plan was to main enhancement this xpac like I've been wanting to do forever now, but it's just extremely hard to get motivated for it. Hell I find myself more motivated to play classes I don't even have, thanks to their extremely interesting updates and our lack-there-of.

    Also, I'm not buying the "play another class" line. Of course that's always the case, but when an overwhelming majority of the shaman playerbase is already saying the same things I am, weeks and even months before me and it still hasn't changed, I no longer accept that it's my failing to be interested and it's up to me to play something else. There's obviously issues.
    What is Ascendance then? What is Primal Elementalist? (uber powerful, controlled Elementals with Stuns and bonus damage is boring?)


  12. #2012
    Cookie Monster Radux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I suppose I'm just not seeing the huge difference between a totem that heals the most injured ally nearby, and a statue that heals someone nearby everytime you do damage.
    Well, totems usually have a powerful, short-lived effect on X cooldown, while the statue you're referring to (Jade Serpent) is stuck in place for its duration. That means that you have to be within 20 yds of your statue to have it actually heal someone when you deal damage.

    The way I see it:

    Shaman + Totem - oh crap I need healing now (does healing around me right when I need it)
    Monk + Statue - I'm going to strategically place this statue where I feel I can have it utilized the most.

    The difference between the two:

    Shaman + Totem - people will try to destroy your totem
    Monk + Statue - people will attempt to keep out of range of your statue so you don't actually heal people with it when you deal dmg.

  13. #2013
    yes indeed ... ascendance is imba ! nobody can deny that one!

  14. #2014
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    While choosing not to jump into the uberfun semantics-bashing party here, I'll simply say that while it's up for debate whether or not they've changed the efficiency of the class (specifically enhancement) they've definitely neglected to add anything to it that makes one jump out of his chair in excitement. Other classes are changing forms or getting perma wings or gaining cool vanity abilities or just becoming all around more fun.
    Ascendance is precisely this, and the overall reaction from the community when it was announced was jumping out of their chair with excitement.

    We, however, have been gifted with giant gaps of nothing in our rotation and glyphs/talents that represent abilities we get on live now anyway.
    Every melee has gaps in their rotation, by design. This is so that they can use utility abilities without losing DPS. In fact, the Enhancement rotation was changed to the current model after the biggest complaint regarding the rotation in WotLK was there are no gaps in the rotation.

    And pretty much every class is sharing spec-specific abilities as new talents, now. That's one of the main design models they used to come up with talent choices.

  15. #2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    What is Ascendance then? What is Primal Elementalist? (uber powerful, controlled Elementals with Stuns and bonus damage is boring?)
    Actually yes. It's very boring to me and I won't be taking it. I have no interest in being a pet class. No biggie. =)

    Ascendance is neat, I guess I was just hoping for a little more of a fun-vanity update than a costume cooldown every 3 minutes.

    Don't mind me. Everyone in this thread is crazy on-edge the past few days. It's actually the reason I've waited so long to input here. No worries. I'm sure I can find less serious-toned, fun "lol wtb perma ghostwolf (etc)" threads else where.

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    So many people are gonna die.

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  16. #2016
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radux View Post
    Well, totems usually have a powerful, short-lived effect on X cooldown, while the statue you're referring to (Jade Serpent) is stuck in place for its duration. That means that you have to be within 20 yds of your statue to have it actually heal someone when you deal damage.

    The way I see it:

    Shaman + Totem - oh crap I need healing now (does healing around me right when I need it)
    Monk + Statue - I'm going to strategically place this statue where I feel I can have it utilized the most.

    The difference between the two:

    Shaman + Totem - people will try to destroy your totem
    Monk + Statue - people will attempt to keep out of range of your statue so you don't actually heal people with it when you deal dmg.
    Well beyond that, Monk statues do more than any single totem does. For example, you can actually place the statue anywhere within 40 yards. We have to pick up a talent to do that. Each statue does multiple things. Jade Serpent Statue actually has two passives; One passive heals you while you do damage within 20 yards. The other re-casts Soothing Mists on you or an ally within 40 yards. The statue can't be attacked, and it lasts for 15 damn minutes.

    Keep in mind, you used to be able to click on the statue and it would heal you. However, Blizzard removed this not because it was overpowered, but because they felt that it was interfering too much with Lightwell....

    The Black Ox Statue gives bonus abilities to two Monk abilities, and allows you and your allies to click on it for a shield ability. The DPS statue isn't up yet, but I'm sure it'll be just as strong as the other two.

    People try to destroy our totems because they can. However, if I had the option to destroy a Monk statue or a Shaman totem, I'd probably go after the Monk statue first.

  17. #2017
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well beyond that, Monk statues do more than any single totem does. For example, you can actually place the statue anywhere within 40 yards. We have to pick up a talent to do that. Each statue does multiple things. Jade Serpent Statue actually has two passives; One passive heals you while you do damage within 20 yards. The other re-casts Soothing Mists on you or an ally within 40 yards. The statue can't be attacked, and it lasts for 15 damn minutes.

    Keep in mind, you used to be able to click on the statue and it would heal you. However, Blizzard removed this not because it was overpowered, but because they felt that it was interfering too much with Lightwell....

    The Black Ox Statue gives bonus abilities to two Monk abilities, and allows you and your allies to click on it for a shield ability. The DPS statue isn't up yet, but I'm sure it'll be just as strong as the other two.

    People try to destroy our totems because they can. However, if I had the option to destroy a Monk statue or a Shaman totem, I'd probably go after the Monk statue first.
    One-to-one comparisons are not useful or constructive. You can't compare Monk statues to Shaman totems like that, because Monks are not Shaman.

  18. #2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well beyond that, Monk statues do more than any single totem does.
    Have you actually been in beta to test this? Because that's an incredibly bold statement that's likely wrong.

    A quick look on beta shows HTT doing ~16-17k per tick on 5 people every 2 seconds. That means, if HTT doesn't crit (which it can), it does a minimum of 40k HPS.
    That would mean that a healer monk would have to be doing at least 80k dps to even match HTT in hps.

    This was done on an 85 premade. I'm not sure on the scaling, but those numbers will go up on both sides. But right now, I just don't see a healing monk doing even a third of that dps.

  19. #2019
    Quote Originally Posted by Radux View Post
    Have you actually been in beta to test this? Because that's an incredibly bold statement that's likely wrong.

    A quick look on beta shows HTT doing ~16-17k per tick on 5 people every 2 seconds. That means, if HTT doesn't crit (which it can), it does a minimum of 40k HPS.
    That would mean that a healer monk would have to be doing at least 80k dps to even match HTT in hps.

    This was done on an 85 premade. I'm not sure on the scaling, but those numbers will go up on both sides. But right now, I just don't see a healing monk doing even a third of that dps.
    I was in the middle of posting this when I saw Radux already had. Our totems are stronger in a lot of situations, which is why they have bigger drawbacks. Plus Totems and Statues aren't the same mechanic. They changed Statues because they felt they had to much in common with Lightwell, which just goes to show they dont want Statues to be like existing mechanics in the game, so they dont want Statues to be like Totems either would be a logical step, so comparing them makes no sense anyway.


  20. #2020
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radux View Post
    Have you actually been in beta to test this? Because that's an incredibly bold statement that's likely wrong.

    A quick look on beta shows HTT doing ~16-17k per tick on 5 people every 2 seconds. That means, if HTT doesn't crit (which it can), it does a minimum of 40k HPS.
    That would mean that a healer monk would have to be doing at least 80k dps to even match HTT in healing done.

    This was done on an 85 premade. I'm not sure on the scaling, but those numbers will go up on both sides. But right now, I just don't see a healing monk doing even a third of that dps.
    No, I'm not saying that the Monk statue heals for more, I'm saying that the statues do more things and have a bit more utility than any single totem. Like being able to be placed anywhere within 40 yards. Or the Jade Statue having two passives, or the Ox Statue changing your tanking abilities and granting shields to party members who click on it.

    Let's also not forget that they're invulnerable and can't be destroyed at all.

    Granted HTT heals for more, but it only lasts 10 seconds, and then goes on cooldown for as long as a Monk statue does, and it can be destroyed. HTT is a powerful ability, sure, but some of our totems aren't nearly that powerful, and they can get smashed in one hit. I'm just trying to get the justification for it, because it just doesn't make sense.

    Endus, I'm not seeing why we can't compare the two. They're primarily the same mechanic. Its like saying I can't compare Rogue Stealth to Hunter's Camouflage because one is the core of the class, and the other is a high end ability.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2012-05-11 at 08:52 PM.

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