[OFFICIAL] MoP Beta Build Changes Discussion Thread

[Endus]

Why should I pick EB again, when not a single boss is patchwerk/ultrax and I need to RL my 10man and give alot of attention to everything else and dont have room to add another spell with low CD into my priority without my performance while RLing suffering?

This is why the new talent system is great.

If you need a simpler, easier style of gameplay to better improve your performance, you can have it. Your performance won't be optimal, most likely, but you'll still get pretty close.

Right now EB and PE are close enough that it's a "pick whichever you like" point, for Elemental at least, but UF isn't that much further behind, particularly with the recent hotfix to Lightning Bolt (which I don't think is enough to change which talent is on top; it just narrows the gap).

Another player who IS concerned about min/maxing their personal DPS to a greater extent, or who is a bit bored by the basic rotation, could pick EB and be happy as well.

Same kind of rationales apply to the Tier 4 talents as well, FWIW.

[Klatar]

Not to be picky, but could you elaborate on "a lot"? Last batch of numbers I saw for Elemental only had it ~2-3% above PE in a perfectly executed standstill fight. I feel lag, movement, or player error could more than make up for some of that difference. Maybe not quite enough to make UF awesome, but I don't think EB is in the position to be the "pick this or you're freaking terrible" category.

Actually sims show EB pretty much 100% better than UF. UF is a weak talent for elemental, especially since it doesn't synergize really good for elemental. Using UE is a dps loss right now and the +30% damage on LB is really.

EB increases the overall damage by about 8%, UF by 4% at all gear levels.

[Endus]

Actually sims show EB pretty much 100% better than UF. UF is a weak talent for elemental, especially since it doesn't synergize really good for elemental. Using UE is a dps loss right now and the +30% damage on LB is really.

EB increases the overall damage by about 8%, UF by 4% at all gear levels.

1> This narrows on high mobility fights; EB has a cast time, UE does not.
2> Those sims don't account for the recent bump to LB, which will boost the value of UF.

The most recent testing I've seen put PE and UF pretty close on heavy movement, with EB lagging very slightly behind. Those numbers were from BEFORE the recent hotfix, though. EB and PE pull significantly ahead on patchwerk/dummy tests, but actual raid fights don't work like that. You keep citing sims as if they were perfect and complete in the basic Patchwerk testing, and that's absolutely not true. They're a tool. And you need to know the weaknesses of that tool to use it properly.

[Klatar]

Pretty much. Been running sims and such, and the margins are pretty darn close, and those sims don't account for the most recent hotfix yet, which will bring UF a little closer.

That doesn't mean it's the best choice, but the margins between the level 90 talents aren't huge.

I ran the sim, so just provide some numbers:

Without lvl 90 talents, the dps is 97680 dps.

With EB, it's 105533.

With UF, it's 101129.

So to ropund up:

Picking UF is a dps gain of 3449 dps, or 3.5% over picking no talent.

Picking EB is a dps gain of 7853 dps, or 8.0% over picking no talent.

So picking EB is the clear, especially since it also increases our burts dps and all proccs increase our aoe damage, while UF even has the disadvantage that you have stick on your target, Burst dps doesn't gain anything and AOE is totally not affected by that skill.

For me, UF is totally not viable for PVE. For PVP, it might look different because of the big downsides EB. I was just comparing from a PVE dps POV.

---------- Post added 2012-09-22 at 05:18 PM ----------

1> This narrows on high mobility fights; EB has a cast time, UE does not.
2> Those sims don't account for the recent bump to LB, which will boost the value of UF.

The most recent testing I've seen put PE and UF pretty close on heavy movement, with EB lagging very slightly behind. Those numbers were from BEFORE the recent hotfix, though. EB and PE pull significantly ahead on patchwerk/dummy tests, but actual raid fights don't work like that. You keep citing sims as if they were perfect and complete in the basic Patchwerk testing, and that's absolutely not true. They're a tool. And you need to know the weaknesses of that tool to use it properly.

Actually those heavy movement fights they sim actually don't exist. So theoretically, if there was a movement fight so that you nearly always have to move, then yes. But the reality is that in DS, movement was nearly always very predictable and mobility is already high on elemental, so you always had the possibity to move while shocking/casting LB and just stand for a moment when you have to cast EB.

Thinkg of DS, EB would be the winner on all bosses but warmaster by far. In Firelands on all fights but perhaps Alysrazor. Ragnaros could've been PE specific if i want to maximize burst in P3.

But a good player will have no choice but to pick EB because it's that much more dps.

[Endus]

So picking EB is the clear, especially since it also increases our burts dps and all proccs increase our aoe damage, while UF even has the disadvantage that you have stick on your target, Burst dps doesn't gain anything and AOE is totally not affected by that skill.

I'm assuming you're using version 505-1, which was uploaded on Sept 12th, and thus doesn't include the recent hotfix to LB damage.

You're also focusing entirely on Patchwerk fights. UF can be used while moving, EB can't. Same for PE, which has distinct advantages over EB for burst situations.

[Chainreactor]

I'd agree if only Elemental Blast had lower cast time. At the moment, Elemental Blast is our Improved Soul Fire with a cast time. To be perfectly honest, playing in MoP I've started to think that I liked Wotlk model of Lava Burst Spell much more.

On topic: I have an idea to implement Fulmination as a "new" Elemental spell, that does NOT share a CD with other shocks. (Basically, make it into a non-shock spell for Elemental)

Earth Shock could be slightly reworked spell for Enhacement (like, "spell leaves a DoT after dealing a direct damage to the target"), but they'd no longer have Flame Shock (that would be Elemental Spell). That way, each of dps shaman's spec would have just two shocks spell, making them easier to manage (especially in PVP)

x2 on that one
even though the rotation was mind-numbing the Burst Factor was solid

[Klatar]

I'm assuming you're using version 505-1, which was uploaded on Sept 12th, and thus doesn't include the recent hotfix to LB damage.

You're also focusing entirely on Patchwerk fights. UF can be used while moving, EB can't. Same for PE, which has distinct advantages over EB for burst situations.

And you're focussing on bad players. A good player knows how and when to move. No encounter consists of constant movin every 10 seconds. Most movement is predictable and surely not 30% of the fight.

And veven for a lot of movement every minute we have cds like SWG.

[Endus]

And you're focussing on bad players. A good player knows how and when to move. No encounter consists of constant movin every 10 seconds. Most movement is predictable and surely not 30% of the fight.

And now you're just talking BS.

If you're mid-cast on an EB and get targeted and have to move, or you have to delay casting an EB because you're already moving, then you're losing DPS compared to a Patchwerk sim. These are not predictable in such a way as to avoid any DPS loss. As literally anyone who has ever raided even at an LFR difficulty knows.

You're being deliberately disingenuous if you're claiming that only "bad players" can't do 100% optimal Patchwerk DPS at all times in all fights. Which is what you just said.

And veven for a lot of movement every minute we have cds like SWG.

That doesn't help for cases where the movement is more than once every 2 minutes, nor for cases where you're mid-cast and have to move ASAP.

[Pietrzyk]

(...) nor for cases where you're mid-cast and have to move ASAP.

Spiritwalker's Grace is still ingame.

[Sarevokcz]

Spiritwalker's Grace is still ingame.

Oh, didnt even notice we can use it midcast now. Still, doesnt help when its more than once per 2 minutes. on heavy movement fights, EB definitely wont be the optimal option

[Endus]

Spiritwalker's Grace is still ingame.

Color me surprised, I knew it was off the GCD but I thought you had to interrupt the cast.

Point remains; it helps, but the idea that only "bad players" lose DPS compared to a pure Pathwerk fight due to movement? That's just wrong. I wasn't saying we had poor mobility options or something; I think Shaman are really strong on that front. Just that even 96% is less than 100%. You can't just take Patchwerk sims and assume you'll see that in-game. In some cases, they're WILDLY off base.

[rogas]

little question; using UE when Lava surge procs in EB/PE rotation... dps loss? dps gain?

[Protoman]

As others have pointed out.....sims can't predict everything, especially movement.....and while EB might seem like the clear winner, the combo of ULF's LB buff plus LB on the move via UL glyph could help make up the difference in highly mobile fights. There isn't really much point in trying to pick an obvious best choice as talents will vary from fight to fight......if I had to very broadly categorize the T6 talents I would say ULF for mobile fights, EB for stationary, and PE for burst/CD oriented fights.

[Klatar]

And now you're just talking BS.

If you're mid-cast on an EB and get targeted and have to move, or you have to delay casting an EB because you're already moving, then you're losing DPS compared to a Patchwerk sim. These are not predictable in such a way as to avoid any DPS loss. As literally anyone who has ever raided even at an LFR difficulty knows.

You're being deliberately disingenuous if you're claiming that only "bad players" can't do 100% optimal Patchwerk DPS at all times in all fights. Which is what you just said.



That doesn't help for cases where the movement is more than once every 2 minutes, nor for cases where you're mid-cast and have to move ASAP.

Did you actually ever play elemental in DS?

Morhchok: movement totally controllable and planable. No problem for EB.
Warlord: totally planable
Yorsah: totally planable
Hagara: only in frost phase a problem. But you have SWG for every frost phase and finally, you always have some moments to cast. But will be no bigge rproblem since you at worst have only few seconds without SWG.
Ultraxion: yeah, totally movement heavy
Warmaster: well that's the one fight you have a lot of movement so itmight be easier to take another talent. I'm still sure that a good elemental can time everything perfectly.
Spine: no movement
Madness: little movement, totally planable aside of parasites

So like i said, 7/8 ds heroic encounters are perfectly playable without any problems. Warmaster Blackhorn is te one fight where both might get close to each other and a very good elemental shaman should be using EB.

Even with EB, our mobility is very high. There's no need for 100% mobility. And even as you tell, they are getting close to each other on very heavy movement fights.

And personally i wouldn't want 100% mobility. Mobility is already too good, makes elemental too easy. PErhaps it's just my opionion, but i'd prefer some higher skill cap and more damage potential all along.

Anyways i can assure you that UF will be constantly ignored by elemental shamans - because it's very weak.

[Endus]

Did you actually ever play elemental in DS?

Morhchok: movement totally controllable and planable. No problem for EB.
Warlord: totally planable
Yorsah: totally planable
Hagara: only in frost phase a problem. But you have SWG for every frost phase and finally, you always have some moments to cast. But will be no bigge rproblem since you at worst have only few seconds without SWG.
Ultraxion: yeah, totally movement heavy
Warmaster: well that's the one fight you have a lot of movement so itmight be easier to take another talent. I'm still sure that a good elemental can time everything perfectly.
Spine: no movement
Madness: little movement, totally planable aside of parasites

So like i said, 7/8 ds heroic encounters are perfectly playable without any problems. Warmaster Blackhorn is te one fight where both might get close to each other and a very good elemental shaman should be using EB.

Even with EB, our mobility is very high. There's no need for 100% mobility. And even as you tell, they are getting close to each other on very heavy movement fights.

If you think 7/8 DS encounters you lose 0 DPS to movement if you're playing properly, you are, to be blunt, wrong.

And spell interrupted to move, any spell delayed until you stop moving, at any point in those fights, is lost DPS. Glyphing GoUL is lost DPS, for that matter.

And UF is more friendly to movement than EB. As sims would show you, if you bothered to actually run a variety of sims to test multiple possibilities, rather than picking one sim and claiming that it is Shaman Theorycraft Jesus.

[Nisala]

little question; using UE when Lava surge procs in EB/PE rotation... dps loss? dps gain?

DPS loss; you're using a GCD to effectively do 30% of a lava burst + a token initial hit from UE itself. I'm not entirely sure what UE's damage is at 90, but I am sure it's not high. We can anticipate that the 30% lava burst damage increase alongside the initial hit is the equivalent of perhaps half a lava burst, at best - which is obviously not worth a GCD.

[Klatar]

If you think 7/8 DS encounters you lose 0 DPS to movement if you're playing properly, you are, to be blunt, wrong.

And spell interrupted to move, any spell delayed until you stop moving, at any point in those fights, is lost DPS. Glyphing GoUL is lost DPS, for that matter.

And UF is more friendly to movement than EB. As sims would show you, if you bothered to actually run a variety of sims to test multiple possibilities, rather than picking one sim and claiming that it is Shaman Theorycraft Jesus.

You focussed just on one scenario that isn't realistic, but it made you post 'everything is fine'. Those fights you actually sim don't exist and will never exist...

I mean all about you is 'everything is fine and when it isn't, i still insist it's okay'. Fact is that with GoUL, our mobility is extremely high, so there's no need to reach even more mobility. No fight ingame needs 100% mobility.

And don't get silly. GoUL will be mandatory on all fights with movement since basically.

And UF is working also counter mobility. You would be forced to use it every time it's ready (aside of ascendance), meaning you can't use it while moving. Right now, you can use it occasionally while moving without real dps loss. If you don't use GoUL, perfect gameplay means you can overcome little movement with shocks and UE and LS proccs. UE being gone because you have to use it on CD is working counter mobility.




EDIT: And just liek expected, light movement fights still heavily favor EB over UF, by about the same margin. And even on high movement fights, EB is still 2k dps ahead.

I actually don't believe you simmed those at all. EB even wins on heavy movement according to sims.

Please give me your profiles that show UF ahead of EB in any possible scenario.

[oblivionx]

If LB scales well, it eventually can make UF more competitive on standstill fights and a winner on movement fights. Adding a viable insta to our rotation can't hurt.

[Dumble]

Everytime I visit this thread, I see Endus getting into a "debate" with someone

I wonder what it would be like if EB increased the stat that you have highest, instead of just random crit/mastery/haste :O

[MinoEnha]

Does anyone know if Fire elemental still takes snapshot of your stats,or will he update during a fight?
Maybe this question was already answered,but i couldn't find it,I apologise in advance if that may be the case.