[OFFICIAL] MoP Beta Build Changes Discussion Thread

[Protoman]

The current design principle regarding mana is that it matters for healers, and shouldn't matter for DPS....Not to mention, Elemental HAS an on-demand mana tool. Thunderstorm. And Shamanistic Rage still technically serves the same purpose as well, since you'd continue regenerating mana for the duration without spending any, Enhancement just doesn't consider the mana regen aspect because it's not needed.They both already have spec-specific mana regen tools they don't need. Shoehorning one of Resto's in too is beyond unnecessary

It's not necessary thats true, I just think it would be a good addition. As for TC glyph, I still think this should be removed completely. It's a cool theory, but if its something we will have to rely on its no longer fun.....and I'm fairly positive it WILL be relied on early on cause of lack of gear and proper regen via spirit/crit. Easier to just give Resto some better scaling with Spirit, and double the return on MTT.



Something else that bugs me, specifically about Enhance, is that we use WF/FT for both PVE and PVP. It was the design intent that FB should be our OH of choice for PVP, but that has failed so far because the 40% bonus to LL dmg on FT far outweighs the benefit of a snare on FB, even the new sprint is probably not enough to make us use FB in our OH. We have even lost the talent that buffs our damage when using FB, to make up for the SP buff on FT.

I made two simple suggestions to bring FT and FB more in line with each other, so when you trade damage for utility....the loss is not so great. Those suggestions were:
-Remove the 40% buff to LL from FT
-Add 5% spell damage to FB

The critique against the idea is basically what radux said:

The thing is...

If 40% LL damage from FT gets baked in, plus FB getting 7% Spell damage (like FT now)...
There is 0 point to ever use FT unless the FT+UE buff is still worth using for FS.

Basically your suggestion gives all the good stuff from FT and gives it to FB. But FB still has a snare proc.

This is not true though. FT still provides superior DPS in PVE, it has a higher dps, more reliable melee proc....and it's unleash effect buffs Flame shock/FN, with super effect also buffing our LB. FB has lower DPS, and less reliable proc then FT.....and its unleash effect does not buff our damage at all, instead it gives a snare and a sprint if talented.

So the suggestions I made would simply encourage FB to be used in the OH for PVP only, while FT would still be OH choice for PVE. That would enforce the design goal of FB. Plus, with the 5% spell damage, Ele might even play around with the idea of using it in PVP once in a while, without taking such a dramatic loss in overall spell damage. Isn't that how its supposed to be?

[Thalais]

The only spec for shamans that needs a better way to obtain mana is Restoration Shamans.

Also, PvP Elemental Shamans are having a horrible time trying to obtain a mana pool control, aka mana regen.
This is because we use more Shocks and if there are groups, CL.
Elemental Shamans need a way to keep mana up without having to take that horrible glyph that reduces our LB by 30% but gives us 50% damage into mana ratio

[Radux]

The critique against the idea is basically what radux said:


This is not true though. FT still provides superior DPS in PVE, it has a higher dps, more reliable melee proc....and it's unleash effect buffs Flame shock/FN, with super effect also buffing our LB. FB has lower DPS, and less reliable proc then FT.....and its unleash effect does not buff our damage at all, instead it gives a snare and a sprint if talented.

So the suggestions I made would simply encourage FB to be used in the OH for PVP only, while FT would still be OH choice for PVE. That would enforce the design goal of FB. Plus, with the 5% spell damage, Ele might even play around with the idea of using it in PVP once in a while, without taking such a dramatic loss in overall spell damage. Isn't that how its supposed to be?

If everything went through as you propose, the only reason FT would be used in place of FB in PvE is to buff Flame Shock. That's it. And even then, we don't know if using UE to buff FS will be a dps increase in MoP or not.

You also can't say that the damage from FT will always give you more dps than the dmg proc from FB. Again, that's arguing numbers that no one knows right now. For all we know FB dmg proc could yield more dps than the FT hits.

Also, in all of your examples you assume that every Enhancement Shaman will be using UF. You can't always guarantee that the Shaman will benefit from LB. You can't try to make ability changes based on someone taking a particular talent. If that talent becomes mandatory at this point, that's a failed design - not something that should have 2 abilities balanced around.

Lastly (again I reiterate this again): Your suggestions basically just gives everything good from FT and applies it to FB. At that point why not just ditch FT and say that FB + UE does this on PvE targets and something different on PvP targets.

Making them almost identical (one having a snare and the other not having a snare) isn't interesting. If the only thing that makes them different is the UE use -- then that's really boring/lazy design.

[Protoman]

If everything went through as you propose, the only reason FT would be used in place of FB in PvE is to buff Flame Shock. That's it. And even then, we don't know if using UE to buff FS will be a dps increase in MoP or not.

You also can't say that the damage from FT will always give you more dps than the dmg proc from FB. Again, that's arguing numbers that no one knows right now. For all we know FB dmg proc could yield more dps than the FT hits.

Also, in all of your examples you assume that every Enhancement Shaman will be using UF. You can't always guarantee that the Shaman will benefit from LB. You can't try to make ability changes based on someone taking a particular talent. If that talent becomes mandatory at this point, that's a failed design - not something that should have 2 abilities balanced around.

Lastly (again I reiterate this again): Your suggestions basically just gives everything good from FT and applies it to FB. At that point why not just ditch FT and say that FB + UE does this on PvE targets and something different on PvP targets.

Making them almost identical (one having a snare and the other not having a snare) isn't interesting. If the only thing that makes them different is the UE use -- then that's really boring/lazy design.

The boring and lazy design is making FT too good so that we use it in PVE and PVP and totally ignore FB, which is supposed to give us useful utility in PVP. You seem to be under the impression that with my suggestions the only thing to distinguish the two would be the snare on FB, but that is false. FT is significant because it provides more DPS.....both thru the proc and the unleash effect. By using FB in PVP, you will still be trading damage for utility, just not such a dramatic loss like now that you decide its not even worth it.

FT IS supposed to do more DPS then FB on an average fight. It procs every time vs half the time, or like 9ppm I think it is. FT is desired in PVE not just cause it's proc does more overall DPS......but the unleash effect buffs damage, like Flame shock and Fire Nova.....versus a snare. If you think that FB might do more DPS then FT over a min (which I doubt), they can simply nerf FB's proc damage to be less overall DPS then FT. Or they can have it proc every time like FT, but for less damage, and just have the snare application as the proc. It's a simple change.

And I haven't assumed they will take the talent, thats why I clarified "if talented" for both LB and sprint. But UF has obvious PVP benefits, and without the sprint, FB has ZERO chance of being used in PVP since thats the situation we are in now. The sprint makes it somewhat desirable, but still not enough compared to the overall damage loss of your spells and LL.

They are NOT identical with these suggestions, FT still gives higher DPS and FB still gives more control. But now you will actually USE FB in PVP instead of ignore it cause the damage loss is too great. It's a very good solution, and you end up with WF/FT in PVE and WF/FB in PVP vs WF/FT for both which is how it is now and will be in MoP if nothing gets changed.

[Radux]

Read my 2nd paragraph. Your making assumptions of numbers right now. You have no idea if FT will yield more dps (neglecting extra LL damage and the Spell damage buff) than FB. Unless you can run hours of testing on a dummy in beta and somehow log it or something... you're just guessing.

And taking the above into account + your suggestion, the only difference is the UE effect (and the fact that FB would have the utility without lowering damage).

I'm not trying to say that WF/FB should never happen or anything. I'm saying your suggestion is a poor way to go about it. You seem like it will 100% fix the problem. None of us know that would do anything of the sort. You just took the 'damage vs. utility' thing out of it.

[Protoman]

Read my 2nd paragraph. Your making assumptions of numbers right now. You have no idea if FT will yield more dps (neglecting extra LL damage and the Spell damage buff) than FB. Unless you can run hours of testing on a dummy in beta and somehow log it or something... you're just guessing.

And taking the above into account + your suggestion, the only difference is the UE effect (and the fact that FB would have the utility without lowering damage).

No...I'm not making assumptions. FT doing more DPS then FB is common knowledge:

http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/02/19/to...weapon-imbues/

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2089201105

Then I ran Clous against two types of targets, high armor and low armor. Both are estimates based on PvP geared players in my guild. High armor being 14% dodge (simulating dodge + parry), 4% melee miss, 4% spell miss and 32,000 armor. Low armor being 4% dodge, 4% melee miss, 4% spell miss and 8,000 armor.

High Armor
WF/FT -> 10,582 dps (10,788 dps)
WF/FB -> 9,230 dps
FB/FT -> 10,163 dps (10,841 dps)
(FT/FT -> 11,168 dps)

Low Armor
WF/FT -> 13,995 dps (13,585 dps)
WF/FB -> 12,515 dps
FB/FT -> 12,484 dps (12,906 dps)
(FT/FT -> 13,203 dps)

FT procs every swing, FB procs ~ 9ppm. Just based on the melee proc alone, FT does higher DPS then FB. The Unleash effect makes FT an even more obvious choice for higher DPS.

Nothing seems to be changing in how FT and FB will scale in MoP, so this will most likely still be the truth. And if it does change, you can simply nerf the damage of FB and problem is solved. FB is supposed to do less dps then FT, and if thats not the case I'm sure Blizz would correct it. The problem here is not the proc damage between FT and FB, its the loss in our OTHER damage, specifically LL and all spells when we try to use FB.

I'm not trying to say that WF/FB should never happen or anything. I'm saying your suggestion is a poor way to go about it. You seem like it will 100% fix the problem. None of us know that would do anything of the sort. You just took the 'damage vs. utility' thing out of it.

And how would you solve the problem? FB is supposed to be our PVP imbue, but we ignore it and that is a design flaw. You say my suggestion is poor, but its actually perfect. It would promote the use of FB in PVP, without overpowering FT in PVE because FT still provides higher dps, thru proc or unleash effect.

[Cunning Stunts]

Forgive me if this is already answered, but do these changes point to Enhancement using the Primal Elementalist talent? I know I have seen many Shaman posters both here and on the official WoW forums upset over their elementals becoming pets, but I personally am looking forward to that. I have two Shaman toons, one Enhancement and one Elemental, so I'm particularly curious.

[Radux]

Again... you're assuming NOW. Things might not be the same in MoP. Arguing numbers about something in an expansion because it's that way now doesn't mean it'll work out that way. That's my entire point with the whole "it's obvious that FT > FB damage". You don't know that for MoP. I don't know that for MoP. No one knows that for MoP yet.

As for what I would change? I have no idea.

I mostly disagree with your idea because it's a damn near carbon copy of FT. That's not interesting. At all.
Like I mentioned before. I have no problem having Enh forced into WF/FB.

Giving everything good about FT to FB just means you get to add a snare.

I mean, without knowing really anything about numbers, I'd rather FB dmg proc get a big buff so that when it does happen, it's a big deal.
Giving the Spell damage buff to FB and getting rid of the LL (even baking it into the ability) from FT isn't interesting.

It's like saying Rogues are OP in PvP because they have a Sprint. So Blizzard gives everyone else a Sprint too so everyone has a chance in PvP. That's not the right way to go about it.

[Endus]

And how would you solve the problem? FB is supposed to be our PVP imbue, but we ignore it and that is a design flaw. You say my suggestion is poor, but its actually perfect. It would promote the use of FB in PVP, without overpowering FT in PVE because FT still provides higher dps, thru proc or unleash effect.

The easy way?Have it add the new [PvP]Power stat like we'll be getting on PvP gear.Bam, it's suddenly the go-to imbue for PvP, but still near-useless for PvE.

[Undefetter]

The easy way?Have it add the new [PvP]Power stat like we'll be getting on PvP gear.Bam, it's suddenly the go-to imbue for PvP, but still near-useless for PvE.

Personally I dont even feel this needs to be the case. In Mists if you choose to take Unleash Fury then you have obvious reasons to take FB - another sprint - and without unleash fury you're either taking Elementals or you're taking Elemental Cone. If your taking Elemental Cone you would benefit far more from being in melee range because if you're not your not going to get the damage portion off - so I would only see people taking Cone with FB, as for Elementals they are Melee units without slows of their own, if they are kited then that talent suddenly becomes useless too besides the damage reduction cooldown fron earth ele and 5% more damage from Fire Ele. I'd again say it would be more DPS to use FB, atleast when the Elementals are down.

All 3 t9 talents have heavy weighting towards the extra slow than FB provides to get their full usefulness, and thus I can see FB being a real contender choice. FT might still be better but the gap would be smaller and you would be able to cater it around your comp ('oh I have a frost mage on my team I dont need it' or 'oh I have a Ret on my team, it could help') rather than being forced to take one to prevent yourself being gimped.

[Radux]

On the contrary, Undefetter. You're assuming the Enhancement Shaman is the only one capable of a Slow. Things could definitely weigh towards FT if your team mates can keep a slow on the target (at least if you take EF or the Super Elemental Totem talents).

[Protoman]

Again... you're assuming NOW. Things might not be the same in MoP. Arguing numbers about something in an expansion because it's that way now doesn't mean it'll work out that way. That's my entire point with the whole "it's obvious that FT > FB damage". You don't know that for MoP. I don't know that for MoP. No one knows that for MoP yet.

I know it will be the same in MoP too, because Blizz intent is that FT should yield higher DPS then FB. If FB for whatever reason starts to do more DPS, Blizz themselves would nerf it's proc damage to bring it below FT. They have kept that standard throughout Cata, and will continue it in MoP.

The DPS between FT and FB proc is irrelevant anyways, its not why people continue to pass on FB in PVP. The unleash effect is not an issue either, its fine if we have to trade our flame shock damage for extra control....that's a fair trade. What is not fair though is also losing out on 40% LL damage and 7% spell damage. That's too much damage to give up for the snare.

Frozen Power used to give us 10% more damage on all spells, to counteract the bonus SP from FT. This is being removed as well, so it's yet another reason to prefer FT over FB. That is why I suggest FB gives 5% spell damage vs 7% spell damage for FT.

Main thing that needs to go is 40% LL damage being baked into ability baseline, not tied to FT.

I mostly disagree with your idea because it's a damn near carbon copy of FT. That's not interesting. At all.
Like I mentioned before. I have no problem having Enh forced into WF/FB.

Giving everything good about FT to FB just means you get to add a snare.

I mean, without knowing really anything about numbers, I'd rather FB dmg proc get a big buff so that when it does happen, it's a big deal.
Giving the Spell damage buff to FB and getting rid of the LL (even baking it into the ability) from FT isn't interesting.

It's not a copy though, I don't know why you keep saying that. What makes FT so special? More damage/dps correct? Well that has not changed at all.....FT would still provide more DPS, and so would it's unleash effect. So it's still special for doing more damage. If you want something unique to add to FT to distinguish it from FB, you could simply allow it to give a small buff (5-10%) to periodic damage like flame shock, or maybe even fire totems. This would give it that "fire buffing flavor" that the bonus to LL damage used to provide, without such a big loss to our damage, since flame shock/fire totems aren't as big a deal in PVP as LL or our spells.

The suggestion would promote FB use in PVP, but not replace FT in PVE. That's exactly what the design intent is.

[Undefetter]

On the contrary, Undefetter. You're assuming the Enhancement Shaman is the only one capable of a Slow. Things could definitely weigh towards FT if your team mates can keep a slow on the target (at least if you take EF or the Super Elemental Totem talents).

Of course, hense my comment at the end about it meaning your able to cater the choice around your comp. If your comp is low on slows you can take FB and not feel overly gimped like you do on live, whilst if you dont need the extra slow you can take FT. I see no problem with that system.

[Endus]

Personally I dont even feel this needs to be the case.

Probably not, I'm just saying, if you want our PvP enchant to be more useful in PvP, we have a new PvP power stat that we can add to it that wouldn't much affect PvE and threaten the use of Flametongue Weapon.

[Radux]

It's not a copy though, I don't know why you keep saying that.

Current FT design:
- Does damage
- 7% spell damage
- Extra LL damage

What you suggest for FT:
- Does damage
- 7% spell damage

What you suggest for FB:
- Does damage
- 5-7% spell damage
- Snare

Those are damn near identical. That's why I keep saying that.
You're changing the spell at it's core and then saying their not because the UE does different stuff.

That's why a few posts above I made the point of "what's from stopping them from getting rid of FT on the whole, then have FB's UE effect do something different on players vs. NPC targets".

If you want them to be more separated from PvE vs. PvP (damage vs. utility) then change the UE to make them more enticing.

[Undefetter]

Probably not, I'm just saying, if you want our PvP enchant to be more useful in PvP, we have a new PvP power stat that we can add to it that wouldn't much affect PvE and threaten the use of Flametongue Weapon.

It would definitely fix the issue instantly, but personally I prefer the design target of FT doing more damage, FB supplying more control, and you choose based on what you need and what you're comp needs. Fury does that right out the bat, an on demand sprint would be amazing. Elementals and Cone both put less weight DPS wise on LL, and thus lower the percentage DPS lost from not having FT, and increase the DPS gained from FB due to higher uptimes on targets - assuming you're not supplied with sufficient slows already. If you are then you don't need FB anyway and you can just not take it. I see no problem with this. It gives more choice and flavour to enhance because at the moment the benefits of FB just are not significant enough because LL is too high a portion of Enhance's DPS.

[Protoman]

Current FT design:
- Does damage
- 7% spell damage
- Extra LL damage

What you suggest for FT:
- Does damage
- 7% spell damage

What you suggest for FB:
- Does damage
- 5-7% spell damage
- Snare

Those are damn near identical. That's why I keep saying that.
You're changing the spell at it's core and then saying their not because the UE does different stuff.

That's why a few posts above I made the point of "what's from stopping them from getting rid of FT on the whole, then have FB's UE effect do something different on players vs. NPC targets".

If you want them to be more separated from PvE vs. PvP (damage vs. utility) then change the UE to make them more enticing.

The UE is part of the imbue, regardless of the talent or not it has a big effect on which imbue you use. And I think the UE are enticing enough, you either get more flame shock/fire nova (poss LB) damage which has obvious benefit in PVE since thats where you maintain the dot or use aoe.....or you get a snare (sprint) which is obviously more helpful in PVP then some dot damage.

And you are oversimplifying "does damage". FT does MORE damage/DPS, and FB does LESS damage/DPS. FT being one of our highest DPS imbues is a signature feature of it. More DPS in PVP is a strong factor on its own, which is obvious since FT has been preferred over FB for that specific reason.

How about this then...

- 40% LL damage baked into ability baseline

What you suggest for FT:
- Does MORE damage/DPS
- 7% spell damage
- 5% buff to flame shock dot and fire totems (Fire theme)

What you suggest for FB:
- Does LESS damage/DPS (then FT)
- 5% spell damage
- Snare (Frost theme)

Probably not, I'm just saying, if you want our PvP enchant to be more useful in PvP, we have a new PvP power stat that we can add to it that wouldn't much affect PvE and threaten the use of Flametongue Weapon.

This might work, but I'd like to see if FB can be the obvious choice for PVP, and FT for PVE....without having to make FB behave differently just for PVP. Guess you could call that a last resort, easy quick fix. But I think it can be done without it, using my suggestion above.

[Undefetter]

The UE is part of the imbue, regardless of the talent or not it has a big effect on which imbue you use. And I think the UE are enticing enough, you either get more flame shock/fire nova (poss LB) damage which has obvious benefit in PVE since thats where you maintain the dot or use aoe.....or you get a snare (sprint) which is obviously more helpful in PVP then some dot damage.

And you are oversimplifying "does damage". FT does MORE damage/DPS, and FB does LESS damage/DPS. FT being one of our highest DPS imbues is a signature feature of it. More DPS in PVP is a strong factor on its own, which is obvious since FT has been preferred over FB for that specific reason.

How about this then...

- 40% LL damage baked into ability baseline

What you suggest for FT:
- Does MORE damage/DPS
- 7% spell damage
- 5% buff to flame shock dot and fire totems (Fire theme)

What you suggest for FB:
- Does LESS damage/DPS (then FT)
- 5% spell damage
- Snare (Frost theme)



This might work, but I'd like to see if FB can be the obvious choice for PVP, and FT for PVE....without having to make FB behave differently just for PVP. Guess you could call that a last resort, easy quick fix. But I think it can be done without it, using my suggestion above.

But all your doing is shifting it from "Why would you take Frostbrand" to "Why would you take Flametounge". A snare is quite obviously beter than 5% damage to a low damage DoT (as your enhance so not lots of SP) and your Fire totems. The auto attack damage is not that significant. As for the unleashes, because of the similarity of the spells you may aswell make them the same spell and make the UE "Snares, if target is immune to snares increases damage of next Flame Spell" and be done with it? You dont need to move SP to FB or any of that. Just tweek the damage from Frostbrand and/or its PPM to improve it a bit if the changes already in Mists are not enough by themselves, make it so that its still a noticeable DPS loss to not use FT, but you get a snare instead. That way you can base your choice around situation and composition rather than just taking FB off your bars.

[Radux]

The UE is part of the imbue, regardless of the talent or not it has a big effect on which imbue you use. And I think the UE are enticing enough, you either get more flame shock/fire nova (poss LB) damage which has obvious benefit in PVE since thats where you maintain the dot or use aoe.....or you get a snare (sprint) which is obviously more helpful in PVP then some dot damage.

So it sounds like the classic "choose damage or utility" bit. Isn't that kind of what PvP is about? Given I've never been into Enhancement PvP, but if your Team Mate has a snare, you'd use FT, but if you are missing it, use FB?

I don't see an issue with having to make choices. It's not like using FB is absolutely crippling your play or anything.

And you are oversimplifying "does damage". FT does MORE damage/DPS, and FB does LESS damage/DPS. FT being one of our highest DPS imbues is a signature feature of it. More DPS in PVP is a strong factor on its own, which is obvious since FT has been preferred over FB for that specific reason.

Again, you're using numbers for now. You really need to stop making the assumption that everything will be the exact same number wise in MoP as it is now.
Yes, FT happens every swing.
Yes, FB is a proc.

They could try to balance them to have approximately the same damage done over 60 seconds or something. I'd be ok with that.

How about this then...

What you suggest for FT:
- Does MORE damage/DPS
- 7% spell damage
- 5% buff to flame shock dot and fire totems (Fire theme)

What you suggest for FB:
- Does LESS damage/DPS (then FT)
- 5% spell damage
- Snare (Frost theme)

Well... to be fair I didn't actually suggest any of that. You did.

Really I don't see a need to add anything to FB or remove anything from FT.
If FB is never taken in PvP in MoP (despite the UF changes), that's an issue, I agree. The best course of action would be to just tweak the damage numbers on the Proc and the UE damage to make it more of a threat... at the very least make it less noticeable when you aren't using FT.

Like I said, I'm a firm believer of having to make the choice between doing damage (using FT) or using utility (using FB). Both have strong cases for using them, and some for not using them.

[Tides]

So for Resto:
Glyph of Water Shield: Increases the passive mana generation of your Water Shield by 10%, but Water Shield no longer activates when you receive damage.
-whats this shit? I used it on early 85 and now I will never use this in future, because its shit?

I hope they will change ALL ele glyphs in useful...

I would kill for this Glyph on Spine Heroic when they make me go resto. Water Shield triggers liek... every time a blood dies.. Every time you get debuff or grip.. every time you get tendril,.... SIGH...