[OFFICIAL] MoP Beta Build Changes Discussion Thread

[Teriz]

Wheras we have a tier that resets all manner of cooldowns (totems), reduces cooldown duration, or allows us to make more effective use of them. I'm afraid I fail to see your point about the paladin and priest tiers.

You didn't miss my point, you missed the point I was responding to. Underfetter's argument was that the paladin lvl 60 tier is similar to the shaman 75 tier in terms of usefulness for all specs. That isn't the case.

Talents are not going to be detrimental to dps, if class X doesn't have as many damage enhancing talents as class Y then class X will simply have a higher potential dps without talents than class Y would.

When I say detrimental to dps, I'm not talking about dps, I'm talking about the lack of viable choices in a tier. Btw, resto has a similar problem in the sixth tier.

The only viable complaints that can be made about talent trees at this point are:

A) One talent vastly outstrips others of that tier in the majority of situations. (No PvP/PvE does not count in this case,)
B)No-one is able to think of a single situation where activating a talent is of benefit to the character personally or to the group as a whole.

Neither of these scenarios exist so far as I'm aware.

There are far more viable complaints than that.

---------- Post added 2012-05-01 at 04:18 PM ----------

I can foresee fights where I would take conductivity as enhance in DS.
Perhaps: Late burn phases where raid damage was high. Using a haste CD. Casting LBs every other CD would be useful with Conductivity. Heroic Ultraxion pre-nerf sounds like a decent fit ( please tell me I was not the only enhance shaman using Healing Rain with MW5 stacks on this fight ). Sure it worked very well with MW stacks rolling in with T13 set bonuses, but either way, the talent would be useful in situations which meets the goal of Blizzard. I am confident it will be of use in MoP.

Yeah, but is doing all of that more efficient than simply popping AG and attacking your targets with your standard enh rotation? I don't believe it is.



I disagree with this, I hope I do not get infracted for this, but I do have a brain.[/QUOTE]

---------- Post added 2012-05-01 at 04:21 PM ----------

I can foresee fights where I would take conductivity as enhance in DS.
Perhaps: Late burn phases where raid damage was high. Using a haste CD. Casting LBs every other CD would be useful with Conductivity. Heroic Ultraxion pre-nerf sounds like a decent fit ( please tell me I was not the only enhance shaman using Healing Rain with MW5 stacks on this fight ). Sure it worked very well with MW stacks rolling in with T13 set bonuses, but either way, the talent would be useful in situations which meets the goal of Blizzard. I am confident it will be of use in MoP.

Yeah, but is doing all of that more efficient than simply popping AG and attacking your targets with your standard enh rotation? I don't believe it is.

[Endus]

Compare that to our healing tier as a dps shaman. Why in the world would any dps shaman pick anything but ancestral guidance? Especially given its synchronous relationship with ascension.

Because AG is single-target, and Healing Tide Totem and Conductivity are both AoE healing. HTT is fire-and-forget and on a cooldown, Conductivity is available whenever you choose to cast Healing Rain. Which I already do on certain fights, WITHOUT Conductivity, to help out with healing.

There's solid roles for all three for DPS Shaman. No one is "better" than the others overall; it depends on the situation.

Also that tier overwhelmingly benefits resto shaman almost to the point that it is detrimental to dps shaman.

That's untrue. Being able to offheal is absolutely an advantage and a benefit. If you wanted to do nothing but pure DPS, you should be playing a pure class, not a hybrid. The focus in MoP is to make hybrids more "hybrid-y".

When I say detrimental to dps, I'm not talking about dps, I'm talking about the lack of viable choices in a tier. Btw, resto has a similar problem in the sixth tier.

Where all three talents have really obvious healing boosts?

Tier 6 is just fine for Resto.

---------- Post added 2012-05-01 at 12:30 PM ----------

It does seem to be the only talent where using it to the fullest would hurt dps, however it's got by far the highest potential healing done over the course of a standard boss fight so perhaps that's intentional?

If the enrage timer isn't a problem, but the healers need just a bit of help to get by, having a Shaman take Conductivity and toss out some HR healing is going to be better than swapping to another healer, having more than enough healing, and causing the Enrage timer to be a factor.

Fights where this might have been relevant in DS: Spine, Ultraxion, Yor'sahj for certain phases (particularly red/yellow/green/black). Not saying it would be THE way to go, but you'd at least consider it.

[Deleted]

AM 3min cd hm....Should we sympathize with our paladinfriends that they will be nerfed a cooldown after another?

I have a question. One temporary beta build said, that a lot of basic healskills (healing touch, holy light etc.) has now a 1.5sec casttime. Healing wave was not listet (also these information disappeart eventually from the mmo page).
Did the standart healing casts now have a reduced cast-time? And what about the shamans healing wave? (Like the standart dmg spells: lb etc.)

I have no access at the moment to my beta.

[Radux]

Most of those changes that were listed as 1.5 second heals (Healing Touch/Holy Light/etc) were just incorrect datamines. They're still the typical 2.5-3 second casts.

[Teriz]

The only point I would agree with Teriz on is Conductivity for DPS. Its not particularly useful for DPS unless you are on a very hard to heal fight but you need to meet some kind of DPS timer. Ultraxion HC pre-nerf comes to mind. That sort of fight Conductivity would have been phenominal on. Saying however that only Ancestral Guidance would be taken is just a lie. Healing Tide Totem may well heal enough to be worth it. Likely it will heal more than Ancestral Guidance does and more to the point it heals multiple people whilst Ancestral Guidance only heals one at a time (unless you're AoEing, in which case if theres AoE damage with AoE healing needed then yes you would take AG, but thats the whole point).

And in reference to Teriz, to say ANY talent is in ANY way detrimental to a DPS is just a lie. If your raid needs you to help heal, and you have the ability to do that, then thats a good thing not a bad thing. Do DPS druids complain that they have Tranquility so may lose DPS if they are asked to use it? Do Shadow Priests complain about Hymn of Hope or Divine Hymn? Absolutely not.

None of those abilities are talents. I'm sure dps shaman would want some actual choice instead of talent tiers where there is one singular choice for all scenarios and highly situational talents that are only useful every so often.

[Endus]

None of those abilities are talents. I'm sure dps shaman would want some actual choice instead of talent tiers where there is one singular choice for all scenarios and highly situational talents that are only useful every so often.

And that's what we've got.

If you're seeing something different, you're either not looking at the same talent trees as everyone else, or you're mistaking your own subjective preferences for established mathematical facts.

From the perspective of Elemental;

Tier 1: Astral Shift for taking single massive hits or for PvP when focused, SBT for more constant damage mitigation, NG for 5-mans where threat is an issue.
Tier 2: FP for typical PvP, EG for situational PvE situations or BGs where I want AoE CC, Windwalk Totem in PvE depending on the fight, in PvP for CC-heavy teams
Tier 3: CotE for PvE typically, Totemic Restoration for arena PvP, Totemic Projection for BGs for chucking Capacitor/Earthgrab
Tier 4: EM for when I want burst, AS for sustained controlled DPS and instants for PvP, Echo for PvE sustained DPS
Tier 5: HTT for low-cost AoE healing support, AG for low-cost single-target support, COnductivity for higher-cost much-higher-healing support.
Tier 6: UF for PvP 90% of the time, PE for sustained DPS, EB for bursty DPS in PvE or where pets aren't friendly, possibly phasing towards UF later in the expansion depending on scaling and caps.

Acting as if there's only one choice in any one tier is simply false. Every tier has choices. Usually all three. The only one I can't see a use for, for me, as Elemental, is Nature's Guardian, but I'd quite possibly take it as Resto in PvP, and it'd have some use for leveling and for 5-mans as well.

[shell]

"Yeah, but is doing all of that more efficient than simply popping AG and attacking your targets with your standard enh rotation? I don't believe it is."

If I'm choosing one of the 3 talents in that tier for efficiency then the one talent I'm not taking in that tier is AG. It's single target as opposed to the other two.

Also, as far as Conductivity/HTT not being useful for dps shaman, I'm not so sure. It has some usefulness in raids, as has been pointed out already. But I can see either of those being useful in dungeons, as well. I do a lot of random dungeons and encounter healers that struggle, so for those situations I could take either Conductivity/HTT. IIRC, changing talents is supposed to be as easy as changing glyphs currently.

I could also see either of those being used in PvP. I could see Conductivity being taken as an ele for rated bg's in particular. Say your fighting, in the flag room or around a node, where everyone is bunched up, damage is flying around everywhere so it'd be pretty useful to help out the healers in this situation. I picked Conductivity for this example, and not HTT, simply because I'd rather not use a totem which could be stomped. I also used rated bg's because I think it's in organized pvp where either of those two abilities could shine.

Is that all situationall? Yes, but that's one the intents of the new talent system. If I were to change Conductivity at all, I would like Chain Lightning to be added, but its fine where its at.

In the end, I don't have a problem with that tier being mostly about healing or the last tier being mostly about dps. It's not that the talents aren't useful for one particular spec or another, it's that we haven't had enough time to figure out all the situations that they could be useful for.

On another note, with the change to Earth Shield, I think it'd be fun to make a 3's team with ele, enh, and resto.

[Teriz]

And that's what we've got.

If you're seeing something different, you're either not looking at the same talent trees as everyone else, or you're mistaking your own subjective preferences for established mathematical facts.

From the perspective of Elemental;

Tier 1: Astral Shift for taking single massive hits or for PvP when focused, SBT for more constant damage mitigation, NG for 5-mans where threat is an issue.
Tier 2: FP for typical PvP, EG for situational PvE situations or BGs where I want AoE CC, Windwalk Totem in PvE depending on the fight, in PvP for CC-heavy teams
Tier 3: CotE for PvE typically, Totemic Restoration for arena PvP, Totemic Projection for BGs for chucking Capacitor/Earthgrab
Tier 4: EM for when I want burst, AS for sustained controlled DPS and instants for PvP, Echo for PvE sustained DPS
Tier 5: HTT for low-cost AoE healing support, AG for low-cost single-target support, COnductivity for higher-cost much-higher-healing support.
Tier 6: UF for PvP 90% of the time, PE for sustained DPS, EB for bursty DPS in PvE or where pets aren't friendly, possibly phasing towards UF later in the expansion depending on scaling and caps.

Acting as if there's only one choice in any one tier is simply false. Every tier has choices. Usually all three. The only one I can't see a use for, for me, as Elemental, is Nature's Guardian, but I'd quite possibly take it as Resto in PvP, and it'd have some use for leveling and for 5-mans as well.

And that simply isn't the case with paladin and priest talents which have nervous uses in numerous situations. They also truly give those classes a choice in every tier. That's the point.

[Deleted]

And that simply isn't the case with paladin and priest talents which have nervous uses in numerous situations. They also truly give those classes a choice in every tier. That's the point.

Just to grab Paladins - not that any class is the same, the whole point of talents (the way its always been) is that they are unique for each class but okay

Tier 1 - Speed of Light if fight has very little movement in it, Pursuit of Justice if it has movement phases with no damage (ie Hagara) or very long movement phases (again ie Hagara), else default to Long Arm of the Law

Tier 2 - Ret will take Burden of Guilt, unless they are in a slows heavy comp in Arena, then they will take Fist of Justice because Repentance has a cast time so compared to another CC they would pick the other CC, whilst a Holy Paladin would probably always take Repentance

Tier 3 - Holy takes Sacred Shield in PvP or when tank healing (unless Eternal Flame is more HPS on the tank then they always take that) else takes Selfless Healer, Ret in PvP either takes Selfless Healer or if they are in a comp with some obvious target (ie Ele Shaman/Arcane Mage) they will take Eternal Flame. On a heavy tank damage fight they would take Eternal Flame in PvE, else they would take Sacred Shield

Tier 4 - PvE all take Unbreakable Spirit unless theres some special need for double Bubble in which case take Clemency, in PvP probably all take Hand of Purity.

Tier 5 - I dont know Paladins well enough to know which is mathed out as the best, but its like our Tier 4, a throughput tree

Tier 6 - AoE fight Ret/Prot take Light's Hammer, if AoE on top of the raid take Light's Hammer or Holy Prism based on which hits for more, if not AoE take Execution Sentence, Holy takes Exe Sentence if tank healing, if theres AoE healing takes Holy Prism for consistant AoE, Light's Hammer if it comes in a burst

Not particularly hard to decipher which talents will be used where either, the point is that they all have their places. Thats the whole point

[Endus]

And that simply isn't the case with paladin and priest talents which have nervous uses in numerous situations. They also truly give those classes a choice in every tier. That's the point.

Where in my giant list-o-choices did you get the impression that there was a lack of choice? And that was just MY preferences, I wasn't stating that those choices would necessarily hold true for everyone else, or for specs other than Elemental.

There's just as much legitimate choice in the Shaman tree as the Paladin tree, or any other. You haven't provided any evidence to back up your claim otherwise. Nothing at all. You've merely stated it as if it were a fact, when it tacitly is not.

[shell]

Compare that to our healing tier as a dps shaman. Why in the world would any dps shaman pick anything but ancestral guidance? Especially given its synchronous relationship with ascension. It's a no brained really. Also that tier overwhelmingly benefits resto shaman almost to the point that it is detrimental to dps shaman. Priests and paladins aren't in the same boat. Their talents are much better thought out frankly.

And that simply isn't the case with paladin and priest talents which have nervous uses in numerous situations. They also truly give those classes a choice in every tier. That's the point.

I could just as easily say 'Why in the world would any dps shaman pick Ancestral Guidance'? In my personal view, it's not that good unless I'm solo queuing for random bg's; and even then I'd still probably take HTT. But that statement I just made is just as false as you saying 'Why in the world would any dps shaman pick anything but ancestral guidance?' The problem isn't with the talents in those tiers, it's that people aren't thinking outside the box.

Also, how is it detrimental to your dps to bring utility to a raid/dungeon/bg/arena?

As for your statements about priests and paladins: the grass is always greener on the other side. I've been lurking in the forums to see what other classes think about their talents. Priests and paladins are complaining about them just as much as anyone else. That does not mean, however, that any particular talent is useless. It just means that people aren't thinking outside the box.

Once again, it's not that the talents aren't useful for one particular spec or another, it's that we haven't had enough time to figure out all the situations that they could be useful for.

[Taalyn]

given [Ancestral Guidance's] synchronous relationship with ascension

If anything, Elemental Mastery and Ancestral Guidance pair well. Both are 2 min CDs while Ascension is 3 min. You can pair EM with AG every time they are up, you'll only get 1 pairing of AG and Ascension in a fight, assuming the usual 6 min Enrage timer.

[Teriz]

Just to grab Paladins - not that any class is the same, the whole point of talents (the way its always been) is that they are unique for each class but okay

Tier 1 - Speed of Light if fight has very little movement in it, Pursuit of Justice if it has movement phases with no damage (ie Hagara) or very long movement phases (again ie Hagara), else default to Long Arm of the Law

Howabout LotL just because Paladins are constantly using Judgement? That makes it useful in PvP and PvE. Speed of Light is just as useful due to its massive speed boost, and its relatively short cooldown. Pursuit of Justice is also useful because you're always going to be stacking holy power. Thus if you have max holy power, you're getting a 40% movement buff as long as it lasts. Also PoJ works with other HP-based talents later in the tree.

This is what I mean by having a great tier. None of those talents are terrible. It all comes down to personal playstyle since those talents can be useful throughout the game.

I could do the same to the rest of the talents you listed. That is how strong the Paladin talent tree truly is.

[Taalyn]

You're subjectively criticizing the shaman talents which is fine and dandy, if you're just stating personal opinion. If you're trying to argue they need changing, you can't do that.

If you want numerous uses in numerous situations for shaman talents, you've already got them.

Nature's Guardian - Useful any time you're going to go below 30% health.
Stone Bulwark Totem - Useful any time you need to mitigate damage.
Astral Shift - Useful any time you need to mitigate damage.

There are numerous situations where you need to mitigate damage. There are some fights, even on progression, where I have never gone below 30% health so arguably, Nature's Guardian does have its limited uses but nowhere near as few as to say it needs to be changed.

I would go through the rest of the talents but I don't find it necessary.

[Teriz]

Where in my giant list-o-choices did you get the impression that there was a lack of choice? And that was just MY preferences, I wasn't stating that those choices would necessarily hold true for everyone else, or for specs other than Elemental.

There's just as much legitimate choice in the Shaman tree as the Paladin tree, or any other. You haven't provided any evidence to back up your claim otherwise. Nothing at all. You've merely stated it as if it were a fact, when it tacitly is not.

I already have. A DPS Shaman isn't going to waste a cast time and DPS to drop a HR to make conductivity worthwhile. An Enhancement Shaman could do it, due to MSW, but then he would have to cast lightning bolts to make it worth his time, and that hurts his DPS. For HTT, an Enhancement Shaman is better served just tossing up HRs if they really want to heal the group with weak heals. Meanwhile, if I'm in a group and I'm taking damage that the healer can't heal, I can pop AG and 40% of my damage comes back to me as healing. Since I'm DPS, that means that almost half of my damage is coming back to me as heals. That's incredibly powerful. It works in PvP as well. If I'm an Elemental Shaman hitting them with Lava Bursts and Fulminations, 40% of the damage I'm doing is healing me. Again, it is the better talent because it benefits my spec more than the other two by quite a large margin.

In the end, if it falls upon you as a DPS to keep your group alive, your group is dead anyway. I'd rather take the talent that best benefits my spec, and that talent is AG.

---------- Post added 2012-05-01 at 10:22 PM ----------

You're subjectively criticizing the shaman talents which is fine and dandy, if you're just stating personal opinion. If you're trying to argue they need changing, you can't do that.

If you want numerous uses in numerous situations for shaman talents, you've already got them.

Nature's Guardian - Useful any time you're going to go below 30% health.

Unless it happens again within 30 seconds....

Stone Bulwark Totem - Useful any time you need to mitigate damage.

Unless it gets stomped due to its piddling 5 hp, or you're using another Earth totem.

Astral Shift - Useful any time you need to mitigate damage.

Unless you're stunned, Frozen, Asleep, incapacitated, or feared.

BTW, that wasn't my point in regards to the Paladin talents.

[Deleted]

Howabout LotL just because Paladins are constantly using Judgement? That makes it useful in PvP and PvE. Speed of Light is just as useful due to its massive speed boost, and its relatively short cooldown. Pursuit of Justice is also useful because you're always going to be stacking holy power. Thus if you have max holy power, you're getting a 40% movement buff as long as it lasts. Also PoJ works with other HP-based talents later in the tree.

This is what I mean by having a great tier. None of those talents are terrible. It all comes down to personal playstyle since those talents can be useful throughout the game.

I could do the same to the rest of the talents you listed. That is how strong the Paladin talent tree truly is.

So because you feel one tier is good, which btw I never said it wasn't - though Judgement requires you to actually be able to HIT something and if you read my reasons I said default to LAotL just like you are saying so you didn't even discredit my point. They are all useful, but only in their particular situations. Besides, even if you disagree with my assessment of that tier, I would say our first tier is pretty well rounded too. Astral Shift for massive bursts of damage (like big bursts of movement through Speed of Light), constant damage reduction if your consistantly taking damage through Bulwark (like if your consistantly able to deal damage you get constant movement increase through Pursuit of Justice), else default to Nature's Guardian. The third option is not as strong as the first two in their particular situations, but it has none of their drawbacks either (no need to activate it so no wasted GCDs and no chance of wasting it by popping it when it wasn't needed, it will only happen if you hit 30%).

If you think this tier of paladins is well rounded, then you have to think ours is too? And even if you disagree with my view of our t1, you also ignored my view of every other tier of Paladins because it didn't fit your view. You can't cherry pick things to fit your arguement and ignore the things that don't.

---------- Post added 2012-05-01 at 11:49 PM ----------

I already have. A DPS Shaman isn't going to waste a cast time and DPS to drop a HR to make conductivity worthwhile. An Enhancement Shaman could do it, due to MSW, but then he would have to cast lightning bolts to make it worth his time, and that hurts his DPS. For HTT, an Enhancement Shaman is better served just tossing up HRs if they really want to heal the group with weak heals. Meanwhile, if I'm in a group and I'm taking damage that the healer can't heal, I can pop AG and 40% of my damage comes back to me as healing. Since I'm DPS, that means that almost half of my damage is coming back to me as heals. That's incredibly powerful. It works in PvP as well. If I'm an Elemental Shaman hitting them with Lava Bursts and Fulminations, 40% of the damage I'm doing is healing me. Again, it is the better talent because it benefits my spec more than the other two by quite a large margin.

In the end, if it falls upon you as a DPS to keep your group alive, your group is dead anyway. I'd rather take the talent that best benefits my spec, and that talent is AG.

I'm sorry, but did you do ANY high end progression PvE before nerfs were put in on any HC bosses? 100% I've had to help out healing on fights, and 100% me doing so has gotten us kills. I remember our first Yor'sahj HC kill, literally the only way we could survive R/Y/B after we had used BL was for me to put Healing Rain down to help out. On fights like Ultraxion where healing is intense, buying your raid 10 more seconds by doing 10k HPS and losing out on one Lightning Bolt is far, FAR more powerful than the 50k Damage you lost, in the extra seconds you bought your raid, you alone likely outdid the Damage you would have done before.

Sure if all you care about is WoL rankings then healing talents are boring to you, but I for one and rediculously excited about HTT. Its vastly more powerful than Ancestral Guidance because Ancestral Guidance will cause so much overhealing. Its like a Resto Shaman casting Greater Healing Wave when he could be casting Chain Heal. Sure in Arena Ancestral Guidance is likely much better because its not a totem easily destroyed and there is only 3 of you, but HTT heals 5 people at once whilst AG heals 1. That alone is why HTT is vastly superior. I can't wait for it. Currently I have to use up 1.6 seconds to heal the raid for ~10k HPS over ~10 seconds, now I get to use just a global and it heals for 10 seconds for much more than Healing Rain does. I can't wait for it. And on fights I would already be using Healing Rain on anyway, Conductivity would be great. They want to make us feel more Hybrid like, and now we are actively encouraged to do so.

As for taking the talent that 'best fits your spec', thats not how WoW works. You take the talent that is the best - at least you do if you want to be optimal. If your raid needs a defensive cooldown then you take HTT, if your raid needs more healing but can't fully sacrifise a DPS then you take Conductivity. If you don't like being a hybrid, then sadly your playing the wrong class, because unless your either 1 - In a World Top 50 guild or 2 - Not in high end progression PvE your using Heals like a hybrid already, or at least should be because their benefit vastly outweighs the lost damage.

---------- Post added 2012-05-01 at 10:22 PM ----------



Unless it happens again within 30 seconds....

Unless it gets stomped due to its piddling 5 hp, or you're using another Earth totem.

Unless you're stunned, Frozen, Asleep, incapacitated, or feared.

BTW, that wasn't my point in regards to the Paladin talents.

So you're asking for a defensive ability with no cooldown/a cooldown less than 30 seconds, one that doesn't require a totem to use (as a Shaman who are iconic users of totems) and which can be used when CCed? Find me a defensive ability that has no drawbacks, is useable when CCed and has such a low cooldown? It just doesn't exist.

[Manu9]

About Hex, what if it was made to return %50 of the stacks of MW used to cast it? It would make using it with MW over healing more appealing.

[Endus]

Howabout LotL just because Paladins are constantly using Judgement? That makes it useful in PvP and PvE. Speed of Light is just as useful due to its massive speed boost, and its relatively short cooldown. Pursuit of Justice is also useful because you're always going to be stacking holy power. Thus if you have max holy power, you're getting a 40% movement buff as long as it lasts. Also PoJ works with other HP-based talents later in the tree.

The LotL buff only lasts 3 seconds, and Judgements are typically not used for the speed buff currently, meaning you'll have paladins debating whether to use it now for DPS/threat/mana, or hold off so they can use the speed boost to get out of a fire. It's not a perfect talent.

PoJ only stacks to 40% if you've got 3 stacks of Holy Power, and all three specs don't want to hold on to HP; it's dumped ASAP.

I'm not saying these are "bad", but they've got serious drawbacks. Both require sacrificing your normal performance slightly to maximize your mobility, and it's possible to get "locked" out of it.

This is what I mean by having a great tier. None of those talents are terrible. It all comes down to personal playstyle since those talents can be useful throughout the game.

I could do the same to the rest of the talents you listed. That is how strong the Paladin talent tree truly is.

What you miss is that the Shaman tree is no different.

I already have. A DPS Shaman isn't going to waste a cast time and DPS to drop a HR to make conductivity worthwhile.

Absolutely 100% false. I already drop HR when it's warranted, as Elemental, if my raid needs healing more than it needs DPS, which is often the case on heroic progression, depending on the fight. Conductivity just makes it that much more appealing.

In heroic progression, fights often have a focus. If the focus is on beating the Enrage timer, healers are expected and required to help out with DPS and find gaps to contribute while keeping up with healing. If the focus is on heavy healing and survival, DPS hybrids are similarly expected to help out with healing where they can, to improve raid survival, since losing a tiny amount of DPS does not risk running into the Enrage timer. The idea that DPS Shaman don't "need" healing boosts is just incorrect, even just with regards to PvE, and when you bring in PvP, it's even more obvious.

The idea that Elemental Shaman don't ever drop HR in raids is simply not true. At all.

For HTT, an Enhancement Shaman is better served just tossing up HRs if they really want to heal the group with weak heals.

HTT has a 40 yard radius, HR has a 10 yard radius. HTT also heals for significantly more per tick, has an extra tick, and is an instant cast, not a 2s cast. So no, an Enhancement Shaman is NOT better served with just casting Healing Rain. Especially since he can do both, if he takes this talent; it's not either/or. Again, your claim is simply untrue.

It really makes me wonder, combined with your also completely mistaken impression as to how Nature's Guardian works, if you've actually checked any of this yourself, or if you're just making wild assumptions based on third-hand impressions without mentioning your source. Because whatever source you're using does not understand how most of what you're commenting on actually works.

[Deleted]

Just a note

Tier 4 - PvE all take Unbreakable Spirit unless theres some special need for double Bubble in which case take Clemency, in PvP probably all take Hand of Purity.

Purity sounds extremly powerfull for holypaladins in pve....just think of Yorsah Hc. I would have gladly taken it at our first kill.

A lot of bosses has some stacking magic oder bleeding debuff.

Especially cause paladins already has Sacrifice....now they got their 2nd Dmg Reduce skill (for other players).

[Deleted]

Just a note



Purity sounds extremly powerfull for holypaladins in pve....just think of Yorsah Hc. I would have gladly taken it at our first kill.

A lot of bosses has some stacking magic oder bleeding debuff.

Especially cause paladins already has Sacrifice....now they got their 2nd Dmg Reduce skill (for other players).

However, in 99% of cases those DoTs are up a lot of the fight, so having multiple cooldowns seems more useful, being able to go Hand of Protection > Hand of Sacrifice > Clemency > Hand of Sacrifice > Hand of Protection rather than HoP > HoS > HoP. Though I can definitely see HoP being useful yes. But again, its only in very situational circumstances

Edit : Woot 1k posts =DDD