[OFFICIAL] MoP Beta Build Changes Discussion Thread

[Undefetter]

It's going to get nerfed in theory you can drop like ~20k(napkin math) hps on like 3 low hp targets in like rbgwithout targeting them and in rbg there is not many times 3 targets go down at once except for dotcleaves. all other setups require burst.( accendance,lust,em cl spam is going to be insane for those early fights about the "middle flag") But I really hope they will not nerf it soon

It does, if there are 3 targets (ie 3v3) 120% of your damage done as healing effectively. In raids on beta with Ascendance up I have managed to break 200k HPS from Ancestral Guidance. If your allowed to just sit and cast it really is just a 'your team is invulnerable for the duration'. In PvP if your able to just sit and nuke with Ascendance up I'd say 50k HPS would be more than achievable for the 10 seconds its up. So it IS very strong, but that doesn't mean it will be nerfed, because to allow someone to sit and nuke you with that kind of cooldown chaining up is just asking to lose.

The point is though, like Endus said, you can't assume anything good will be nerfed.

[orderschvank]

a question to all the mods and super shams on this forum, how extensive is the write up about ele shaman specifically going to be, i have not had much time to level mine personally to 90, and i know there are not many super drastic changes, but with the addition of a few key dps cooldowns and spell changes. i would be very much interested in learning everything i can about my spec, now i do get a whole week of figuring it out for myself before the raids actually open, just any pre information i can get will always be a plus.

[Endus]

a question to all the mods and super shams on this forum, how extensive is the write up about ele shaman specifically going to be, i have not had much time to level mine personally to 90, and i know there are not many super drastic changes, but with the addition of a few key dps cooldowns and spell changes. i would be very much interested in learning everything i can about my spec, now i do get a whole week of figuring it out for myself before the raids actually open, just any pre information i can get will always be a plus.

"Extensive". There are actually some pretty solid plans in place, and they should guarantee a more cohesive guide experience for MoP (not that Cata was bad, but it's going to be more organized in MoP rather than the piecemeal as-I-get-around-to-it that it was in MoP). There's some very interesting collaboration going on in that regard, but it's not likely to get posted until launch or shortly thereafter (we don't have a hard timeline yet).

[binkenstein]

"Extensive". There are actually some pretty solid plans in place, and they should guarantee a more cohesive guide experience for MoP (not that Cata was bad, but it's going to be more organized in MoP rather than the piecemeal as-I-get-around-to-it that it was in MoP). There's some very interesting collaboration going on in that regard, but it's not likely to get posted until launch or shortly thereafter (we don't have a hard timeline yet).

The original blog post of mine on the subject is here.

Hopefully with more of us working on it we can cover more ground, so to speak. I'm mid-way through writing a bit of a Mists Primer as an explaining-the-changes exercise, which will eventually be part of the guide itself (see signature) but there's a lot of Simcraft tests I need to run before I can flesh some of this out.

[Nebria]

The original blog post of mine on the subject is here.

Hopefully with more of us working on it we can cover more ground, so to speak. I'm mid-way through writing a bit of a Mists Primer as an explaining-the-changes exercise, which will eventually be part of the guide itself (see signature) but there's a lot of Simcraft tests I need to run before I can flesh some of this out.

reading you Mists of Pandaria 5.0 Elemental Shaman Primer I was very exited that indeed they got it work to make every talent in tier lvl 60 balanced to each other. Also that we get a stat priority change depending on skills and glyphs. So we will more differ from ele to ele which is very nice
Ok more work for the sim guys...

[binkenstein]

reading you Mists of Pandaria 5.0 Elemental Shaman Primer I was very exited that indeed they got it work to make every talent in tier lvl 60 balanced to each other. Also that we get a stat priority change depending on skills and glyphs. So we will more differ from ele to ele which is very nice
Ok more work for the sim guys...

Yeah, just worked out my initial test set is going to be 46 combinations, and that's before I start looking at L90 talent specific gear sets too.

[Enaina]

Let's go down a list, without trying to get all 1:1 with abilities because that's pointless and silly. I'm not going to include CCs/slows/roots, but I will include movement bursts like Thunderstorm and Blink. I know CCs and slows and roots are important, but the lists would get huge. I WILL include Stuns, though.

Elemental:
Thunderstorm
Grounding Totem
Astral Shift/Nature's Guardian/SBT
Unleash Fury:Rockbiter/PE: Earth Elemental
Innate off-healing
Wind Shear\
Ancestral Guidance/HTT
Tremor Totem
Capacitor Totem


Mage (any spec, no spec has a defensive tool innately):
Blink
Counterspell
Ice Block
Deep Freeze
Alter Time
Temporal Shield/Blazing Speed/Ice Barrier
Greater Invis/Cauterize/Cold Snap

Sorry, not seeing any oppressive amount of defense on the part of Mages, compared to Elemental.

You're not?
A list like this is pretty silly because what a defensive ability actually is, is subjective. I'm not sure if I agree with Tremor being a defensive ability if purge/spell steal isn't because it can straight out remove an offensive ability or remove a buff that boosts offensive abilities. I know both mages and shamans got purge/spell steal, but it's just to prove that your list is unclear and not capable of providing a legit comparison.

With that said; Ice Block, Blink and Ice Barrier is by far what makes mages ahead on the defensive part. Blink is basically stun immunity, Ice block is an oh-shit button, that will stop all the pressure you put on the team(given mage is the target, and the only one with low HP), and more or less reset pressure. With cold snap now being a 3 min CD, it's a relatively frequent CD that used to be 8 min, and can now be used to counter opponents CDs, rather than just contributing to the "was that his second block? Okay, no more blocks". It can even be used whilst being affected by any kind of CC, the only way to prevent Ice Block is by locking frost school. And Ice Barrier is just a strong, frequent shield that is really strong. It's not even an ability you have to use when you see inc damage, but just click it when ever it's ready since the duration is 1 min and the CD is 25 sec.

So as you can see, mages consistency + oh-shit tools is in a spot where an elemental shaman would never be able to compete. In a scenario where the elemental shaman gets stunned and bursted, there is literally nothing to do(other than thunder storm), other than pray that your healer can keep you up. while a mage would just blink and root, or even Ice Block if needed. Combined with how strong their shield is(which btw makes up for the fact that we more armor) I cannot see why you wont agree with the fact that mages are in a better spot when it comes to defensive part. I know that our viability in arena is going to depend on the entire package, but atm I cannot see what we have that compensates, and make us just as good or better than a mage

[Endus]

You're not?
A list like this is pretty silly because what a defensive ability actually is, is subjective. I'm not sure if I agree with Tremor being a defensive ability if purge/spell steal isn't because it can straight out remove an offensive ability or remove a buff that boosts offensive abilities. I know both mages and shamans got purge/spell steal, but it's just to prove that your list is unclear and not capable of providing a legit comparison.

Of course it is. It isn't possible to do a comparison that is both clear, concise, and legitimate. Any 2 of the 3, sure, but not all 3; if you go into enough detail for clarity in a thorough enough manner to be legitimate, it will not be concise.

That wasn't the point. The point was people make up distinctions, exactly as I had to for that particular list there, but they artificially draw the lines on their lists in such a way as to exclude the majority of the Shaman's tools. It's a deliberately unfair pattern of argument.

The point was never that Elemental Shaman are somehow "better" defensively than Mages. Mages have great defenses. I think that lists shows that. But Elemental has a lot of powerful tools too. They aren't the same as a Mage's, because we're not Mages. Everyone has different ability layouts. I absolutely don't agree that the MoP Elemental ability lists leaves us shortchanged for defenses. On the contrary, I look at that list and I see a heck of a lot of strength. Better than everyone else? Probably not. Strong enough to be a contender? That's my argument. The Shaman portfolio is a bit more active than most classes; you can't just freak out and jab your panic button when you screw up like a Mage hitting Iceblock. I don't see that as a negative, though, it just means we have a higher skill quotient, and I'm absolutely fine with that (and I'm not saying mages are "easier", either, just that Iceblock is an "easy" defensive tool).

[Enaina]

he Shaman portfolio is a bit more active than most classes; you can't just freak out and jab your panic button when you screw up like a Mage hitting Iceblock. I don't see that as a negative, though, it just means we have a higher skill quotient, and I'm absolutely fine with that (and I'm not saying mages are "easier", either, just that Iceblock is an "easy" defensive tool).

I'd say specifically the elemental spec has a higher skill 'range' in the way that there is a greater difference between a bad and a good elemental shaman compared to mages. But I don't think we have higher potential than a mage, we just have a harder and more cumbersome way to get to do what they do. If I compare a few things; Frost Shock VS frost nova(and pet nova for frost). It's not that Frost Shock is any better than mages tools to root but if we fiddle out a way to manage our shock's CDs, we then get to single target root, which has even a shorter duration than a mage's root(way shorter CD though). Capacitor Totem VS Deep Freeze. I can somewhat agree with you on these two, Capacitor totem has a higher potential since it's an aoe stun, but then again it's very hard to predict where players are going to stand in 5 sec(or force them in range), and it gets destroyed if you auto attack it. It's viable though to pick the Totemic Projection talent and play around with moving it to another location. I still find the 'skill requirement' too high for it to be just as good as deep freeze, that has even got a 15 sec shorter CD than capacitor totem.
And say that you actually predict a swap onto you and pop Astral Shift before they land the stun, I still don't think 40% dmg reduction for 6 sec is better than Ice block.

So yea, again I know the bigger picture isn't considered here, my point with these examples is just that we have a harder way to achieve the things you want in PvP, and mages get it straight away aka more I-win buttons. I don't want elemental to become like that, but it's frustrating that it's going to make us 'not viable' or less viable.

[Ghurzuk]

I'd say specifically the elemental spec has a higher skill 'range' in the way that there is a greater difference between a bad and a good elemental shaman compared to mages. But I don't think we have higher potential than a mage, we just have a harder and more cumbersome way to get to do what they do. If I compare a few things; Frost Shock VS frost nova(and pet nova for frost). It's not that Frost Shock is any better than mages tools to root but if we fiddle out a way to manage our shock's CDs, we then get to single target root, which has even a shorter duration than a mage's root(way shorter CD though). Capacitor Totem VS Deep Freeze. I can somewhat agree with you on these two, Capacitor totem has a higher potential since it's an aoe stun, but then again it's very hard to predict where players are going to stand in 5 sec(or force them in range), and it gets destroyed if you auto attack it. It's viable though to pick the Totemic Projection talent and play around with moving it to another location. I still find the 'skill requirement' too high for it to be just as good as deep freeze, that has even got a 15 sec shorter CD than capacitor totem.
And say that you actually predict a swap onto you and pop Astral Shift before they land the stun, I still don't think 40% dmg reduction for 6 sec is better than Ice block.

So yea, again I know the bigger picture isn't considered here, my point with these examples is just that we have a harder way to achieve the things you want in PvP, and mages get it straight away aka more I-win buttons. I don't want elemental to become like that, but it's frustrating that it's going to make us 'not viable' or less viable.

welcome to world of magecraft.

[Nebria]

welcome to world of magecraft.

waiting for that day where we get the tools to (more easier) have a fair chance to kick their ass
don't like there /lol on me :-/

[Ghurzuk]

as ele you dream hard, as enh i kick their asses now so is ok

[Nebria]

as ele you dream hard, as enh i kick their asses now so is ok

Enhancers are the other guys I don't want to fight against. A real nightmare^^ (ok I don't want to meet a lot of classes - bad memories of rage moments in arena ^^)
well there was some point when I have accepted that I should have some buddy behind me then it is by far better

[Ghurzuk]

well keep in mind wow pvp is pretty screwed. And will be even worse! i saw this morning regarding loss of subscriptions in wow. i saw alsoin my server most of pvp players quitted in favor of gw2, thats why. And if you compare our class to vanilla one you can see that we lost plenty of our identity in favor of other classes, like mages. The fact is shammy, as always never get something good really. Ppl get bored and play pve only then. Those who don't play pve simply quit. Shammy is in a bad state. 2 r 3 new spells wont change things. Ascendance? Is a fail cuz unlike druid tree form wont help us vs pholy.

[Protoman]

Of course it is. It isn't possible to do a comparison that is both clear, concise, and legitimate. Any 2 of the 3, sure, but not all 3; if you go into enough detail for clarity in a thorough enough manner to be legitimate, it will not be concise.

That wasn't the point. The point was people make up distinctions, exactly as I had to for that particular list there, but they artificially draw the lines on their lists in such a way as to exclude the majority of the Shaman's tools. It's a deliberately unfair pattern of argument.

The point was never that Elemental Shaman are somehow "better" defensively than Mages. Mages have great defenses. I think that lists shows that. But Elemental has a lot of powerful tools too. They aren't the same as a Mage's, because we're not Mages. Everyone has different ability layouts. I absolutely don't agree that the MoP Elemental ability lists leaves us shortchanged for defenses. On the contrary, I look at that list and I see a heck of a lot of strength. Better than everyone else? Probably not. Strong enough to be a contender? That's my argument. The Shaman portfolio is a bit more active than most classes; you can't just freak out and jab your panic button when you screw up like a Mage hitting Iceblock. I don't see that as a negative, though, it just means we have a higher skill quotient, and I'm absolutely fine with that (and I'm not saying mages are "easier", either, just that Iceblock is an "easy" defensive tool).

Well....we all know who was the more competitive PVP class in WoW, Mages and not Shamans. Active defense is cool and can have an edge or shine in certain aspects of a fight.....but in the end if you are being focused and under heavy fire you need to rely on some solid defensive CD's. Shaman are getting some new ones (but again they lost some as well when one of the lowest to begin with for defenses)......but our T1 for examples is fairly limited, the only real PVP CD I see being effective is AS but it has a short duration and can't be used under CC effects like stun/silence.....SBT has 5HP and too easy to negate so gain little benefit, and NG is not controllable and could trigger at a time when you might still be safe cause of an incoming heal or use of other Cd's.

I think Enh and Resto are a little better off just cause of extra def CDs's and bonus heals in resto's case.....Elem has traditionally had little to no defenses, and could use atleast some passive damage reduction (prob 10%, similar to spriest and boomkin) or another defensive CD with some unique properties as a backup when AS is on cd.

[Endus]

Well....we all know who was the more competitive PVP class in WoW, Mages and not Shamans.

Nobody here is talking about Vanilla through Cata. We're discussing the changes for MoP.

[orderschvank]

if you pick elemental mastery, has anyone tested whether it is better to always wait for ascendance to cast EM, or just keep casting both off CD, until they can be casted at the same time again..

[Recom]

if you pick elemental mastery, has anyone tested whether it is better to always wait for ascendance to cast EM, or just keep casting both off CD, until they can be casted at the same time again..

You should not wait for Ascendance to cast EM you just want to sync them at the pull (if no BL) and @ 6min when they both come up at the same time.

[Protoman]

Nobody here is talking about Vanilla through Cata. We're discussing the changes for MoP.

How Shaman and Mages compared in survival and competitiveness in PVP during Cata is still relevant...Mages had more traditional defense with passives and stuff like shields and CDS, while Shaman have more active/preventive type defenses with stuff like WS and grounding but not many good defensive CD's.....you are trying to say that these preventive defense tools are "different but just as good".....and while they are good and sometimes better in ways by giving a unique edge on opponents, in the end you still need to rely on traditional defensive CD's and passives to fall back on when focused and under pressure......mages having more of those types of defenses (plus more reliable cc and control) helped give them a competitive edge. Shaman are getting some more defenses, but have also lost some of their only defenses.....they are getting a few active tools but also lost or reduced effect of old preventive tools like the WS nerf.

Can't say for sure how we will compare to other classes as there is still some number tweaks left, plus pvp power and resilience.....but I do think all T1 talents need some buffs and improvements, our T6 made easier to use (like imbue swapping for ULF and not restricting your other earth totems when using Primal Earth elem)......and prob some more defense for Elem atleast, either Ele warding 10% passive dmg reduction or another CD since Enh has a 1min Sham rage and Resto will have SLT and variety of stronger heals.

if you pick elemental mastery, has anyone tested whether it is better to always wait for ascendance to cast EM, or just keep casting both off CD, until they can be casted at the same time again..

Yea, like Recom said you shouldn't always sync them.....if you sync them the first time you use them (0 min mark), you can use EM again at the 2, 4, and 6 min mark.....while Ascendance again at the 3 and 6min mark.....so by using them on CD after first time synced you will get to use both together again at 6 min...which is prob just in time for the burn/execute phase.

[Endus]

How Shaman and Mages compared in survival and competitiveness in PVP during Cata is still relevant

No. It's not. Both classes are changing significantly enough that none of the prior information is of any relevance whatsoever. Mages aren't the same as they were in Cata. Neither are Shaman. It would make as much sense to pick any other random patch in the history of the game and claim that that was how it'll be in MoP.

Everything prior to September 25th, 2012 is 100% entirely irrelevant to the question of how the classes will be performing after September 25th, 2012. You can make some specific assertions about mechanics that haven't changed, but that's about it.