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  1. #21
    Will you guys not be happy until you have a 500% movement speed bonus and a 40 yard range 20 second immobilize along with complete immunity to snares and stuns?

    I understand that charge and death grip are vastly superior, but they obviously aren't going to give that to paladins.
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  2. #22
    Herald of the Titans zcks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toychristopher View Post
    Will you guys not be happy until you have a 500% movement speed bonus and a 40 yard range 20 second immobilize along with complete immunity to snares and stuns?

    I understand that charge and death grip are vastly superior, but they obviously aren't going to give that to paladins.
    I'm actually very close to being happy compared to where I have been in the past with how ret paladins are designed.

    They could do a few quality of life changes however


    1: Make hand of freedom immune to dispels when used on self.

    2: Increase ranged offensive potential to compensate for not having an instant gap closer.

    3: Better integrate how mana works as a resource so we aren't expected to juggle that POS buff that even the designers hate.

    4: Better integrate how haste works so that we won't be expected to reach an insanely high level of it, only for it to become useless after.
    Last edited by zcks; 2012-03-24 at 12:12 PM.
    The way balancing for WOW PVP works is allot like American politics.
    1: Be lazy & ignore problems till the yelling is so loud your cant concentrate.
    2: Refuse to do the things you have Said need to be done, then make up reasons why they cannot be done.
    3: Lay the blame for problems on someone else even when it's your fault because you did all of the above.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by zcks View Post
    3: Better integrate how mana works as a resource so we aren't expected to juggle that POS buff that even the designers hate.
    Not sure what buff you're talking about because there is no mana regen buff for paladins. It's completely passive.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Yes a sheep + 50% snare + Sprint Cooldown talent = ????
    we have to chose between polypentence and the snare.

    /sadface.

    i have heard rumors of avenging wrath no longer being a magic effect however!
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanda View Post
    Sigh

    Reread the post i quoted.

    And just FYI http://www.wowdb.com/spells/2645-ghost-wolf

    Shaman will be easily snared in ghost wolf.
    A Glyph will add the old effect, so no changes there for pvp at least.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
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  6. #26
    Herald of the Titans zcks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Not sure what buff you're talking about because there is no mana regen buff for paladins. It's completely passive.
    Talking about http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/84963/inquisition/

    The designers put it in because they wanted ret to have something to up the skill cap & were to lazy & time constrained to make mana into a resource that actually matters.

    They then later admitted that they hate mechanics like inquisition & slice n dice & would much rather have something else but have not been allowed to make or further develop a resource to take their place because they simply have never been given the time or man power to do so.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-25 at 01:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    i have heard rumors of avenging wrath no longer being a magic effect however!
    According to the people I have talked to on the beta that ^ is true.

    On the beta it is now considered a physical effect.

    If they would only do

    1: Give hand of freedom the same treatment when used on self
    2: Increase ret's ranged potential to compensate for kiting/CC spam
    3: Make Sacred Shield immune to dispels when used on self

    Then ret would be in probably the most balanced state it's been in years.
    Last edited by zcks; 2012-03-25 at 06:23 AM.
    The way balancing for WOW PVP works is allot like American politics.
    1: Be lazy & ignore problems till the yelling is so loud your cant concentrate.
    2: Refuse to do the things you have Said need to be done, then make up reasons why they cannot be done.
    3: Lay the blame for problems on someone else even when it's your fault because you did all of the above.

  7. #27
    Mechagnome Rec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zcks View Post
    While these tools will be good for locking down targets in some situations they will still have problems.

    1: Repentance can easily be dispelled

    2: The snare while decent can also be easily dispelled since it's magic.

    3: The run speed boost is also decent but you can easily be locked down, CC spammed etc... while running to your target



    So while in some cases & team setups these new tools are great, in many others they are still sub par compared to an instant gap closer & physical snare.
    1. So can sheep, and it's a great form of CC.

    2. The snare applies every time you use judgment. No healer should have the time to dispel that on cooldown.

    3. This applies to everyone at anytime doing nearly anything.

    These are amazing changes! If you want an instant gap closer and physical snare roll a warrior. The repentance change is huge... sheep can be "easily dispelled" and it's an arena staple. Honestly, I don't know how to respond to these changes, there's come great stuff we have needed, but I'm skeptical if we need a spammable CC... here's to hoping they don't neuter our damage. : (

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    i have heard rumors of avenging wrath no longer being a magic effect however!
    Don't hold your breath. They've done this to us before: had it be undispellable in beta and/or PTR only to change it just before live.

  9. #29
    Herald of the Titans zcks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rec View Post
    snip
    Yes I agree sheep is a great form of CC, however it's used by mages who are ranged.

    Paladins however are melee & thus easier for other melee to interrupt.

    As for 2, yes assuming every defensive dispel has an 8 second CD then it will be hard to dispel.

    Lastly as for 3, while these changes are alright paladins will still have to close gaps manually & thus will still have the worst melee up time among all melee classes (about equal with shaman, however they will have ranged spells they can use at any time)

    This is why I have long supported the idea that blizzard should do 2 things.

    1: Make hand of freedom immune to dispel when used on self.
    2: Increase ret's ranged damage potential. (not to true ranged class levels mind you but enough to compensate for the low melee time on target.)

    As a side note, #2 would solve the majority of ret's PVP problems without tacking on an instant gap closer.
    Last edited by zcks; 2012-03-25 at 09:48 AM.
    The way balancing for WOW PVP works is allot like American politics.
    1: Be lazy & ignore problems till the yelling is so loud your cant concentrate.
    2: Refuse to do the things you have Said need to be done, then make up reasons why they cannot be done.
    3: Lay the blame for problems on someone else even when it's your fault because you did all of the above.

  10. #30
    Mechagnome Vuagnon's Avatar
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    They should give the class a ranged damaging hp consumer imo. That would do 2 wonderful things,

    1 - solve ret's melee uptime problem without giving it an instant gap closer
    2 - make the shockadin a real option and i know many people who would return just to see this happen
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonuts View Post
    Pretty sad when being deathgripped is my most reliable gap closer! THAT is some BS too.

  11. #31
    Herald of the Titans zcks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vuagnon View Post
    They should give the class a ranged damaging hp consumer imo. That would do 2 wonderful things,

    1 - solve ret's melee uptime problem without giving it an instant gap closer
    2 - make the shockadin a real option and i know many people who would return just to see this happen
    If they did that & did it right I would not only buy a yearlong sub but I would sing with joy.
    The way balancing for WOW PVP works is allot like American politics.
    1: Be lazy & ignore problems till the yelling is so loud your cant concentrate.
    2: Refuse to do the things you have Said need to be done, then make up reasons why they cannot be done.
    3: Lay the blame for problems on someone else even when it's your fault because you did all of the above.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vuagnon View Post
    They should give the class a ranged damaging hp consumer imo. That would do 2 wonderful things,

    1 - solve ret's melee uptime problem without giving it an instant gap closer
    2 - make the shockadin a real option and i know many people who would return just to see this happen
    Make Denounce consume HP and give it to Ret and Holy both. Fixed!
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  13. #33
    However an adequate solution a ranged hp consumer might be, it would take melee out of Ret's play style, already damaged by the fact that you can now use Exorcism without getting into melee range, also the fact that it would need to hit something enough to justify its use against hoping to get melee and empty your HP reserves would make it a balancing point so that paladins would turn more into a mid-range fighter if the melee up time was suffering and blizzard didn't want to address it.

  14. #34
    Herald of the Titans zcks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Black View Post
    However an adequate solution a ranged hp consumer might be, it would take melee out of Ret's play style, already damaged by the fact that you can now use Exorcism without getting into melee range, also the fact that it would need to hit something enough to justify its use against hoping to get melee and empty your HP reserves would make it a balancing point so that paladins would turn more into a mid-range fighter if the melee up time was suffering and blizzard didn't want to address it.
    Melee up time for ret has been suffering since game release & blizzard has refused to do much about it.

    There are really only 2 ways to fix ret's problems with time on target.

    1: Give it an instant gap closer + snare. (would be a bland fix that would be ununique & something blizzard does not ever want to do)
    2: Further increase the specs ability to move faster at base & get out of movement hindering effects (already being done somewhat) Then give it increased ranged potential to further compensate. (the last part is somewhat done via the exorcism change, however it could be further improved via a change to the ability which resets the exorcism CD & the introduction of a HP consumer for ranged)

    Don't get me wrong these new changes help somewhat, but nothing will ever compare to an instant gap closer.

    If they do the changes I listed earlier & introduce a ranged HP consumer then ret would be as close as it ever has been & as close as it ever can be balance wise to other melee.


    Edit: Hell the HP consumer doesn't even have to be that powerful damage wise. Just make it do say 70% of the damage that TV would do then have it do an additional effect. A smart heal like DS does would work, or they could even be nice & bring back something similar to the old debuff that the improved version of overpower used to do for warriors (You know the one, The effect of your next healing or damaging spell is reduced by 25%)

    Granted I'm not expecting all of this to be done for free either, I & I'm suspecting most ret paladins would gladly sacrifice some of how effective WOG is when cast on others.
    Because let's face it we may be paladins but we have enough support already & being an off healer has never done anything but cause balance problems for the spec.
    Last edited by zcks; 2012-03-25 at 07:34 PM.
    The way balancing for WOW PVP works is allot like American politics.
    1: Be lazy & ignore problems till the yelling is so loud your cant concentrate.
    2: Refuse to do the things you have Said need to be done, then make up reasons why they cannot be done.
    3: Lay the blame for problems on someone else even when it's your fault because you did all of the above.

  15. #35
    Dispels are going on an 8 second cooldown. So them dispelling your slow is pretty stupid.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by zcks View Post
    As I have said in other threads blizzard knows & has known for quite some time the things they need to do to balance PVP & PVE respectively but they refuse to do them for various reasons ranging from not knowing how to do so without making classes too similar to simply not wanting to put the effort needed in because they no longer have the number of people working on WOW that it would require.
    You do realise the development team for WoW has been the same for the longest time and was entirely unaffected by the recent firings, right?
    This is my signature. You will now remember me.

  17. #37
    Herald of the Titans zcks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodTier View Post
    Dispels are going on an 8 second cooldown. So them dispelling your slow is pretty stupid.
    Defensive dispels yes, so far offensive dispels have yet to receive a CD however.

    What's worse is that some of them have received glyphs that make them even more powerful.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-25 at 03:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Throrion View Post
    You do realise the development team for WoW has been the same for the longest time and was entirely unaffected by the recent firings, right?
    Actually nobody is quite sure just how many people are on the design team.


    According to rumors that blizzard has done nothing to dissuade however the design & development team is smaller then it has been in the past because more of the designers have been placed on other projects.

    Also as for the team being same since GC took over back in late vanilla. Maybe hiring some new designers on the team is just what the game needs?
    It could go a long ways to help by bringing in some new blood. At the very least they would have more programmers & could get things done better at a faster pace & could possibly have someone who would bring up new ideas that they haven't thought of before.
    The way balancing for WOW PVP works is allot like American politics.
    1: Be lazy & ignore problems till the yelling is so loud your cant concentrate.
    2: Refuse to do the things you have Said need to be done, then make up reasons why they cannot be done.
    3: Lay the blame for problems on someone else even when it's your fault because you did all of the above.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    we have to chose between polypentence and the snare.

    /sadface.

    i have heard rumors of avenging wrath no longer being a magic effect however!
    Seal of Justice undispelable as well and it does more seal dmg than Seal of Truth All you give up is the dot. Also thats not a rumor Avenging Wrath

  19. #39
    Mechagnome Rec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zcks View Post
    Yes I agree sheep is a great form of CC, however it's used by mages who are ranged.

    Paladins however are melee & thus easier for other melee to interrupt.

    As for 2, yes assuming every defensive dispel has an 8 second CD then it will be hard to dispel.

    Lastly as for 3, while these changes are alright paladins will still have to close gaps manually & thus will still have the worst melee up time among all melee classes (about equal with shaman, however they will have ranged spells they can use at any time)

    This is why I have long supported the idea that blizzard should do 2 things.

    1: Make hand of freedom immune to dispel when used on self.
    2: Increase ret's ranged damage potential. (not to true ranged class levels mind you but enough to compensate for the low melee time on target.)

    As a side note, #2 would solve the majority of ret's PVP problems without tacking on an instant gap closer.
    Yes, I think it would be easier to stop a paladin sheeping than a mage, but I'm still freaking out at how strong this ability would be. HoJ, sheeps, and an AoE blind? Sign me up!

    A physical freedom would be nice, but I don't see how it's necessary, especially in MoP when we'll have great speed boosts available to us. Right now, 4 out of 5 times I'm giving freedom to my DK and just self dispelling myself. It's too early to tell, but I don't feel I'll need to self freedom much in MoP.

    I just think you're asking for too much. Ret is a melee class, we can't be doing damage all the time. If we did, Blizzard would have to do something to balance the class, and I'd rather be rewarded for being able to stay on a target (or swap to a different one) than have my melee damage nerfed. If Blizzard did decide ret needs better damage while being kited, perhaps they could buff Seal of Truth? It's already pretty good though... thoughts?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Seal of Justice undispelable as well and it does more seal dmg than Seal of Truth All you give up is the dot. Also thats not a rumor Avenging Wrath
    The only way I'm giving up Censure for that is if Judgment procs it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-25 at 04:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rec View Post
    Yes, I think it would be easier to stop a paladin sheeping than a mage, but I'm still freaking out at how strong this ability would be. HoJ, sheeps, and an AoE blind? Sign me up!
    Go look at Mage and Feral Druid talent trees/abilities/glyphs. You won't think so.

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