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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    As I said elsewhere, the mitigation tank model was used for Frost DKs. It didn't work out because the consistency of the incoming damage actually meant they were nigh impossible to keep topped off, and so would find themselves dying to random things when damage just stacked up, and this is with Wrath style spam healing without a care for mana. If the mitigation was to be remotely balanced, it's pretty likely you would just end up as much a mana sink as any tank today would be who just stacks stamina.
    Right now I can 100% verify that we are not a mana sink. With the amount of mitigation we have (probably a shade too much), and the amount of self healing (also a shade too much... but dear gosh I hope it doesn't get nerfed) via HoL, healers will love us. So far the only things I have not been able to single tank are the Chess Event in Karazhan and the big molten giants in Firelands (due to the debuff that pretty much demands tank swaps). I'd actually like to get some side-by-side comparisons with another tank for some TPS and damage taken comparisons, but it'll also take some UI tweaks to reliably capture it.

    Perhaps Blizzard can put a Patchwerk-esque mob into the beta like they had in the Ulduar-PTR days?

  2. #122
    Mind if I roll need? xskarma's Avatar
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    I'm just looking through our talents again but wouldn't Soul Leech if modified to also encompass our Demonic Slash be perfectly suited to be our Deathstrike type ability? Seems to me that they could use that to make us less reliant on our über mitigation and more on healing ourselves. Only downside would be that we would have to be balanced around taking that talent, and we would loose out on taking the other 2 talents at a heavier penalty. Still, I like the idea, it's better then giving us some kind of conversion that gives us dodge from out of nowhere or something.

  3. #123
    The perma 10% extra healing received (above and beyond cooldown +healing received bonuses) should take some of the sting out of the "mana vaccuum" problem of healing a mitigation tank as well. To what extent, I really couldn't say yet - but it's another variable that could be tweaked to level out across differing tank types.

  4. #124
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    I'm no healer, but what would the average healer prefer: a tank that takes slightly less heals over the course of a fight, but takes spikier damage, or a tank that takes slightly more heals over the course of a fight but is more consistent in damage taken? From what I've heard the latter seems to be preferred and I don't see why the variety shouldn't be added.

    Also I don't quite understand your example Jessicka, seems to me that if Frost DK's were taking such a beating that they died to random stuff that maybe they just weren't very well balanced compared to other tanks?
    Healing on my Pala or Shaman, I kinda prefer spiky damage; it's easier to get on top of for when those big hits do roll in.

    I don't think Frost was too horribly balanced, I tanked plenty of stuff with it without too much issue including my last guild's second Anub kill while still horribly undergeared; I did however, have to use cooldowns a lot more though then than I ever do now as Blood to prevent those random deaths. That's not ideal for raid encounters where you're actually saving those cooldowns for specific moments like Impales, Bolts and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nfariessence View Post
    Right now I can 100% verify that we are not a mana sink. With the amount of mitigation we have (probably a shade too much), and the amount of self healing (also a shade too much... but dear gosh I hope it doesn't get nerfed) via HoL, healers will love us. So far the only things I have not been able to single tank are the Chess Event in Karazhan and the big molten giants in Firelands (due to the debuff that pretty much demands tank swaps). I'd actually like to get some side-by-side comparisons with another tank for some TPS and damage taken comparisons, but it'll also take some UI tweaks to reliably capture it.

    Perhaps Blizzard can put a Patchwerk-esque mob into the beta like they had in the Ulduar-PTR days?
    I think, looking at the Demo Tank soloing Morchok, that that mitigation and healing might well be a little overtuned

    Quote Originally Posted by Renovo View Post
    The perma 10% extra healing received (above and beyond cooldown +healing received bonuses) should take some of the sting out of the "mana vaccuum" problem of healing a mitigation tank as well. To what extent, I really couldn't say yet - but it's another variable that could be tweaked to level out across differing tank types.
    Aside from the obvious PvP implications, it's clear that Fury Ward is meant to be offering the active mitigation resource sink akin to Death Strike so I think there's good reason that Slash isn't on the Soul Leech list. Tanking in MoP is meant to be more about keeping yourself alive; having your basic spam do that for you through generating mitigation from Fury is one thing, having it heal you as well is highly questionable.

    Beta is Beta and all, so numbers are very subject to change. It wont end up overpowered, and mitigation tanking isn't necessarily all it's cracked up to be; but there is potential for it to be interesting and something a little different (Fury Ward does sound a pretty cool way of getting that active mitigation - but that name is stupid :P ); I just hope it gets the talent tree it deserves and Demonology can go back to it's roots as a Demon tree.

  5. #125
    Deleted
    Any idea if Locks have the option yet to queue as a tank in LFG? Would be pretty fail if we were able to tank it but unable to queue.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by quikbunny View Post
    Any idea if Locks have the option yet to queue as a tank in LFG? Would be pretty fail if we were able to tank it but unable to queue.
    Not at the moment, but beta right now is really focused on pandaren 1-10 area only and a lot of stuff is missing at high level (for example you cannot change spec).
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    Well I do have a penis attached to me as well but I dont know 'a lot' about it, I dont even know how it tastes. Maybe you do.
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    Everyone who does not miss Vanilla has no heart. Whoever wishes it back has no brain.

  7. #127
    For what its worth in terms of mitigation, the talent "Dark Bargain" (3 min CD, prevents all damage for 10 sec then deals 50% of that prevented damage over 20 sec) reminds me a bit of the monk mastery, "Stagger"

    Perhaps a version of it may become baseline if they make us a 4th spec?

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Aside from the obvious PvP implications, it's clear that Fury Ward is meant to be offering the active mitigation resource sink akin to Death Strike so I think there's good reason that Slash isn't on the Soul Leech list. Tanking in MoP is meant to be more about keeping yourself alive; having your basic spam do that for you through generating mitigation from Fury is one thing, having it heal you as well is highly questionable.
    Sorry - I somehow completely managed to leave fel armor out of my statement about the 10% extra healing received. >.< That's what I meant, as far as another tuning variable to account for mitigation tanks taking a little more healing than avoidance ones.

    Talenting for healing on demonic slashes seems fine, but given the current choices, it's the least appealing to me.

  9. #129

    sadly, no demon tank

    Ghostcrawler -- Warlock tanks
    Just to make our intent clear, the Glyph of Demon Hunting isn't intended to turn Demonology warlocks into a tanking spec. You won't be able to queue as a tank for Dungeon Finder for instance and won't have the survivability or tools of say a Protection paladin.

    Historically, warlocks felt tankier than other casters and could even off-tank some encounters. We have made an effort in Mists to recapture some of that flavor. A warlock with this glyph should feel like they are about as effective tanking as an Arms warrior who pulls out a shield and swaps to Defensive Stance, or a Feral druid who goes into Bear form. You might be able to off-tank adds or pick up an actual boss for a short period of time if the tank goes down.

    To make warlocks an actual tank would take more significant changes. For example, we want tanks to have to pick up separate tanking gear than their DPS gear (this is even true of druids) and want tanks to have to give up some of their DPS potential in exchange for their survivability. In short, it needs to be a commitment, and that's the sort of thing that needs larger gameplay changes than just a glyph.

    That shouldn't stop the glyph of Demon Hunting from being fun though. As you can probably tell, we are trying to make even the major glyphs more about character customization and fun.


    Blue post

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by hyogacygnus View Post
    Ghostcrawler -- Warlock tanks
    Just to make our intent clear, the Glyph of Demon Hunting isn't intended to turn Demonology warlocks into a tanking spec. You won't be able to queue as a tank for Dungeon Finder for instance and won't have the survivability or tools of say a Protection paladin.

    Historically, warlocks felt tankier than other casters and could even off-tank some encounters. We have made an effort in Mists to recapture some of that flavor. A warlock with this glyph should feel like they are about as effective tanking as an Arms warrior who pulls out a shield and swaps to Defensive Stance, or a Feral druid who goes into Bear form. You might be able to off-tank adds or pick up an actual boss for a short period of time if the tank goes down.

    To make warlocks an actual tank would take more significant changes. For example, we want tanks to have to pick up separate tanking gear than their DPS gear (this is even true of druids) and want tanks to have to give up some of their DPS potential in exchange for their survivability. In short, it needs to be a commitment, and that's the sort of thing that needs larger gameplay changes than just a glyph.

    That shouldn't stop the glyph of Demon Hunting from being fun though. As you can probably tell, we are trying to make even the major glyphs more about character customization and fun.


    Blue post
    I'm pleased.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kavoo View Post
    Well I do have a penis attached to me as well but I dont know 'a lot' about it, I dont even know how it tastes. Maybe you do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycoris View Post
    Everyone who does not miss Vanilla has no heart. Whoever wishes it back has no brain.

  11. #131
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by capitano666 View Post
    I'm pleased.
    I'm sad. Not because the "real" tanking is taken away, but because there were so many good thoughts and tools to enable us to tank. In fact the whole toolbox is there. With so much thoughts, work, and energy spend by the devs to build this up, i'd hope the task at hand would get real. Not a mere "side-task". So i'm sad, not because i'd like it (and i'd like it of course) but because it feels like a "wasted hope".

  12. #132
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by hyogacygnus View Post
    Ghostcrawler -- Warlock tanks
    Just to make our intent clear, the Glyph of Demon Hunting isn't intended to turn Demonology warlocks into a tanking spec. You won't be able to queue as a tank for Dungeon Finder for instance and won't have the survivability or tools of say a Protection paladin.

    Historically, warlocks felt tankier than other casters and could even off-tank some encounters. We have made an effort in Mists to recapture some of that flavor. A warlock with this glyph should feel like they are about as effective tanking as an Arms warrior who pulls out a shield and swaps to Defensive Stance, or a Feral druid who goes into Bear form. You might be able to off-tank adds or pick up an actual boss for a short period of time if the tank goes down.

    To make warlocks an actual tank would take more significant changes. For example, we want tanks to have to pick up separate tanking gear than their DPS gear (this is even true of druids) and want tanks to have to give up some of their DPS potential in exchange for their survivability. In short, it needs to be a commitment, and that's the sort of thing that needs larger gameplay changes than just a glyph.

    That shouldn't stop the glyph of Demon Hunting from being fun though. As you can probably tell, we are trying to make even the major glyphs more about character customization and fun.


    Blue post
    Pleased about this, really think the other specs would of suffered if they went ahead with this. We still get many awesome abilities with this glyph even if we arn't MTing a raid boss. Blizzard are fucking trolls though they knew everyone would be going crazy about this glyph and lol at their silence until now. They love creating drama.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by FruitBat69 View Post
    Pleased about this, really think the other specs would of suffered if they went ahead with this. We still get many awesome abilities with this glyph even if we arn't MTing a raid boss. Blizzard are fucking trolls though they knew everyone would be going crazy about this glyph and lol at their silence until now. They love creating drama.
    hahaha, yeah I've seen threads shutting down
    Quote Originally Posted by Kavoo View Post
    Well I do have a penis attached to me as well but I dont know 'a lot' about it, I dont even know how it tastes. Maybe you do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycoris View Post
    Everyone who does not miss Vanilla has no heart. Whoever wishes it back has no brain.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by capitano666 View Post
    I'm pleased.
    You're pleased that something that wouldn't have affected you is not happening ??
    I am the one who knocks ... because I need your permission to enter.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    You're pleased that something that wouldn't have affected you is not happening ??
    On the contrary, I'm happy that we can have the "flavor" without falling into that kind of specialization that would force us to have 2 sets of gear or keep our dps specs out of class runs.
    My second spec is going to be demonology with this glyph, I'm sure of it now.

    EDIT: I'm also going to quote myself with this post I made on another similar thread: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post16140624
    Last edited by capitano666; 2012-03-27 at 06:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kavoo View Post
    Well I do have a penis attached to me as well but I dont know 'a lot' about it, I dont even know how it tastes. Maybe you do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycoris View Post
    Everyone who does not miss Vanilla has no heart. Whoever wishes it back has no brain.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by capitano666 View Post
    On the contrary, I'm happy that we can have the "flavor" without falling into that kind of specialization that would force us to have 2 sets of gear or keep our dps specs out of class runs.
    My second spec is going to be demonology with this glyph, I'm sure of it now.

    EDIT: I'm also going to quote myself with this post I made on another similar thread: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post16140624
    Ahh ok, sorry. I misinterpreted your post. These are pretty contentious times on the warlock forums here, haha, and I've definitely been "gotten to" with all this vitriol, all the gloating, all the folks telling others how everyone else should play.

    I really probably need to take a few steps back from mmo-c for at least a couple weeks. Because multiple times last night I decided I would just e-suicide (get myself banned) by going the f off on some folks in here.
    I am the one who knocks ... because I need your permission to enter.

  17. #137
    Mind if I roll need? xskarma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    Ahh ok, sorry. I misinterpreted your post. These are pretty contentious times on the warlock forums here, haha, and I've definitely been "gotten to" with all this vitriol, all the gloating, all the folks telling others how everyone else should play.

    I really probably need to take a few steps back from mmo-c for at least a couple weeks. Because multiple times last night I decided I would just e-suicide (get myself banned) by going the f off on some folks in here.
    Not worth it, mate, the gloaters come by any time there is some misfortune, be it in game on or no the forums. Best to leave the topic be and avoid threads on it for a day or 2 if it gets to you, cause the gloaters go back to there little caves and the general warlock community survives and goes on to the more important topics like "what will Demo priority list look like in Mists?" and "How will we be able to achieve the greatest amount of Haunt up time?"

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