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  1. #1
    Fluffy Kitten Kelticfox's Avatar
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    [Rogue] Official Beta Discussion

    To prevent the multitudes of Beta threads that will be incoming, THIS is the thread in which Beta discussion will take place.

    Any people who create additional threads will have them locked and, if they persistently create new threads, infracted for spam.



    And yes I got my Beta Access today, so if people want to know things, just ask!
    Veni, Vidi, Cidere, Prenda In Gen, Interlitum Verlgo Stipes, Dissiptum.

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  2. #2
    Having gotten through all three specs in some (dummy, unbuffed only, at 85) testing in on Beta, I did some analysis of subtlety PvE and mental comparisons... none of them quite feel complete (alone) but I'm sure that'll clean up a bit in practice.

    Hemo vs. Backstab: 145%+58% of weapon damage at 30 energy (203% of a dagger damage), 1 CP. Backstab is at 275% dagger damage with minor additional static damage at 35 energy. Unless something changes, hemo is not something you apply every 24 seconds, but to be avoided completely (in the model where on Garrotte/rupture apply for the damage buff). We're down to 1 CP gen, and it's from behind only. EDIT: Hemo's been altered to be worth using every 24s.

    ShadowDance feels a little more useful with the decreased ambush cost, as well as being able to apply garrotte in place of a new rupture (which is doing rubbish for damage).

    Recuperate is completely gone, replaced by the SnD recovery for energy, banging out our advantage for self healing over the other specs (as well as our survivability bonus from optional talents).

    The rotation on the whole is simpler to focus on... there's no buff that needs to be renewed by a timely finisher and time of application for everything but eviscerate is just "don't let your buffs drop" so... the spec has lost it's real flavor of difficulty and is instead left with the irritation of needing the enemies back at no advantage.

    Unless the #s pull ahead significantly compared to other specs (at least a couple of percent), there won't be an advantage to this spec, except (possibly) greater burst than assassination, but the damage spikes in sub didn't seem terribly significant, leaving us with no reason to go sub. Presumably, mechanics will either favor AoE or cleave (assassination and combat respective) when subtlety has 0 advantages. In another spine encounter, perhaps, where the mob can be debuffed before the opening... with the addition of needing garrotte or rupture on the target before we can start DPSing, burst is significantly muffled.

    I'll probably be giving up the spec in MoP unless something changes.
    Last edited by Kael; 2012-05-03 at 06:36 PM.

  3. #3
    So, question nr.1.: Hows assination? Usable in MoP?

  4. #4
    Dreadlord joepesci's Avatar
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    As someone who doesn't play his rogue any more, a question:
    Do rogues still have to choose between Shadowstep and Preparation (meaning that they CANNOT have both at once)?

    Sry but rogues already have a 95% escape chance, with prep they escape 99% of the time, it's over the top. If it somehow happens that you managed to mess up their first escape attempt, np. they just prep and try again.

    /edit: adapted first sentence a bit, should not seed anger here ;-P
    Last edited by joepesci; 2012-03-22 at 07:58 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by joepesci View Post
    As someone who doesn't play his rogue any more, and is happy about rogue nerfs, a question:
    Do rogues still have to choose between Shadowstep and Preparation (meaning that they CANNOT have both at once)?

    Sry but rogues already have a 95% escape chance, with prep they escape 99% of the time, it's over the top. If it somehow happens that you managed to mess up their first escape attempt, np. they just prep and try again.


    Translation; I want to beat rogues every time I fight them. Did blizzard make this possible in MoP?

  6. #6
    Dreadlord joepesci's Avatar
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    Nope, that's not the correct translation.
    Translation is: I want to force a fight until the end, anyone can win, no one escapes. This is possible against most other classes, impossible with rogues. You can't even gank a ilvl 350 rogue as ilvl 400 hunter, if you don't two shot him and his only concern is to escape. L2flare doesn't help.
    Last edited by joepesci; 2012-03-22 at 07:15 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by joepesci View Post
    As someone who doesn't play his rogue any more, and is happy about rogue nerfs, a question:
    Do rogues still have to choose between Shadowstep and Preparation (meaning that they CANNOT have both at once)?

    Sry but rogues already have a 95% escape chance, with prep they escape 99% of the time, it's over the top. If it somehow happens that you managed to mess up their first escape attempt, np. they just prep and try again.
    So a rogue should only kill you if he makes a perfect attempt without anyone, anything interfering. This may sound harsh but shut the fuck up. Rogues are strong now, but until now they were a joke. The sub spec scales very well with agility and the endgame gear has a lot of it. Use your brain before coming here and posting retarded posts like that. Prep is more than an escape. If they force rogues to choose between the two of them, that means they need to readjust the damage of the rogue and rogues will hit harder. If they do that you will come again and cry about the hard hitting strikes.



    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by joepesci View Post
    Nope, that's not the correct translation.
    Translation is: I want to force a fight until the end, anyone can win, no one escapes. This is possible against most other classes, impossible with rogues. You can't even gank a ilvl 350 rogue as ilvl 400 hunter, if you don't two shot him and his only concern is to escape. L2flare doesn't help.
    A rogue is not designed to fight a one on one fight, he has to retreat and attack again, they have their skills therefor. If you have problems as a hunter against a rogue, L2P. Hunter is one of the easiest classes to own a rogue.
    Last edited by Findme; 2012-03-22 at 07:19 PM.

  8. #8
    Dreadlord joepesci's Avatar
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    I'm not saying that rogues are op, they are fine, their escape chance is op. That's it.
    I'm NOT having problems to beat rogues, escpecially not as a hunter, IF they want to fight, including reattacking after escape. I have a problem if they escape and never come back again to finish the fight. It's not about losing to rogues, it's about them being untouchable if they DO NOT want to fight and burn everything only to permanently and definitely escape.
    Don't claim things I never ever said!
    I bet that I manage to escape 9/10 fights against any class with my lol ilvl 350 rogue, after the initial contact, with ilvl 400+ it should almost be 10/10. How is that balanced, if some classes have an escape chance of 0/10 (Priest vs Rog?) and rogues of 10/10?

    What's up with all these aggressions? I'm just happy for you rogues and for your nice lvl 60 talent choices, just want them confirmed :-)
    So, ignore the rant above --> Beta question: do rogues still get to benefit from the great options offered to them by the current level 60 talent tier (shadowstep or prep), or has this been changed in the beta?
    Last edited by joepesci; 2012-03-22 at 07:56 PM.

  9. #9
    Field Marshal Creed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joepesci View Post
    Nope, that's not the correct translation.
    Translation is: I want to force a fight until the end, anyone can win, no one escapes. This is possible against most other classes, impossible with rogues. You can't even gank a ilvl 350 rogue as ilvl 400 hunter, if you don't two shot him and his only concern is to escape. L2flare doesn't help.
    Rogues are the one class meant to have "escape" as a mechanic. Don't like it? Tough luck.
    Also, popping prep JUST to re-vanish? Good..bad rogue detected.
    Furthermore I'm glad someone with your biased views isn't in the Rogue community anymore ^_^

    Sidenote. The new poisons system..fan/not a fan of, Fox?

  10. #10
    Scarab Lord GreatOak's Avatar
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    I think I may finally put my old rogue on the shelf for good. Hes been my main from BC up until now, but I see less and less rogues every day. Theres a reason were the lowest played class. We dont get any cool new abilities besides the group stealth, which is cool for others not us. They split our utility spells into the tiers like prep and step.
    Monks and Ferals are taking the helm. Rogues got a gimmicky 90 talent set, and gimmicky stealth enhancer move (why not add it in baseline?). Monks get their combo points stacked on themselves, and we have to waste a 90 TALENT to just be able to do that in a hamfisted manner. Nothing is exciting me about playing rogue when everyone else is getting cool buffs and abilities. Rogues are stale and outdated, boring even.

    They lied when they said they were going to work on rogues after we got placeholder satisfaction in the daggers that barely anyone finished.

    They also gave us the least amount of glyphs, which shows they dont care.

  11. #11
    @GreatOak, i agree, rogues did get smokebomb in cata. It has great use in pvp but it's completely useless in pve, in mop they will get a group stealth, again this is a pvp tool with no real use in pve. Rogue game mechanics are outdated. The abilities of the other classes evolved with every expansion, the rogues is still the same. It need a complete overhaul but i'm pretty sure blizzard is going the other way with it, add some patchwork tweaks, some little changes, and that's it. Another expansion with annoying mechanics.,..

  12. #12
    Field Marshal Creed's Avatar
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    To a degree.. We're a pure melee DPS..we don't need awesome, sparkly new abilities. We just need great damage. Its what we're in the game for.
    We're also considered the quint-essential PvP class...and what we have works. I believe Blizz doesn't know exactly what to do with Rogues, but i also believe they aren't completely clueless and brain dead about it.

  13. #13
    Scarab Lord GreatOak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creed View Post
    To a degree.. We're a pure melee DPS..we don't need awesome, sparkly new abilities. We just need great damage. Its what we're in the game for.
    We're also considered the quint-essential PvP class...and what we have works. I believe Blizz doesn't know exactly what to do with Rogues, but i also believe they aren't completely clueless and brain dead about it.
    What you said could easily be applied to mages or warlocks, but because things like fun visuals and interactivity or flavor dont matter. Only numbers matter right?

    Im playing my death knight because I can have fun while doing the same damage as my rogue.

  14. #14
    Field Marshal Creed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    What you said could easily be applied to mages or warlocks, but because things like fun visuals and interactivity or flavor dont matter. Only numbers matter right?

    Im playing my death knight because I can have fun while doing the same damage as my rogue.
    Yea, but mechanics are different..I find stealthing and shadowstepping fun. Maybe you prefer having a minion and heavier armor to go toe-to-toe. I like running fast, you like running on water.

    Casters are known for flashy abilities. You can't really do too much with a melee one. Warriors aren't getting anything stupendous, that mean they're stale and like they were in vanilla? I don't think so.

    As I said. Rogues.. are an interesting situation to deal with. But, it is what it is. Instead of complaining/lamenting how we suck/dont have anything/class X, Y and Z have things you wish you had- why not look at what you are getting and think of the possibilities.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Creed View Post
    Yea, but mechanics are different..I find stealthing and shadowstepping fun. Maybe you prefer having a minion and heavier armor to go toe-to-toe. I like running fast, you like running on water.

    Casters are known for flashy abilities. You can't really do too much with a melee one. Warriors aren't getting anything stupendous, that mean they're stale and like they were in vanilla? I don't think so.

    As I said. Rogues.. are an interesting situation to deal with. But, it is what it is. Instead of complaining/lamenting how we suck/dont have anything/class X, Y and Z have things you wish you had- why not look at what you are getting and think of the possibilities.
    You are saying, rogues should be in a group for their dps. That's not the case since Burning Crusade, there is no pure dps / support class seperation anymore. A hybrid dps can do as many dps as a rogue and maybe even more. So what is the role of the rogue?
    Warriors aren't getting anything stupendous, that mean they're stale and like they were in vanilla? I don't think so.
    Comparing a warrior which can tank to a rogue is not very well thought.

    Mages, Warlocks and Hunters are all pure dps, but they are fun to play in their own way because they evolved over the years, they got new abilities, new mechanics. The rogue has the same mechanic, nothing really which brings fun in the game.

  16. #16
    Totally go for the range rogue build; I would advise assassination spec and rocking shuriken toss. Its flashing come on you are a ninja!
    It needs to be 20% cooler.

  17. #17
    Field Marshal Creed's Avatar
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    1) Yes, a hybrid can do the damage of a rogue in most if not all cases. This is wrong, and should be fixed. A hybridn should never, under any equal circumstance, beat a pure class. That, of course, is in a perfect world.
    2) Rogues...should be in a group for DPS- this is PvE I'm talking.. you cant solo a raid. Not sure what the argument is here...
    3) Warriors can tank..rogues cannot.. I..never brought spec or role into anything. Where are you pulling your defenses from? I'm talking about mechanics. In which case- i'm right..Warriors can light on fire when angry via glyph. Fun... but, not game breaking.. Rogues can make team mates stealth.. lackluster in comparison? Yes. But its still awesome. Take what you're given, not what you want.
    Mages/locks are casters- casters always look better. Its the way of it. Fireballs and demonic bolts will always look cooler than a dagger stab. You cannot change that. Hunters got updated cause mana didn't work for them... it just wasn't Hunter-y. Also, comparatively, Hunter shots looks boring compared to mage/lock casts. That a problem too?
    Fun is opinion. You're saying rogues need to be massively overhauled to be "fun" "new" and "exciting".. well sure, if it was YOUR ideal Rogue. MY ideal rogue is fine as-is.

    Edit- I should probably clearify. I do have a few issues with the rogue class that i'd like to see changed.. but..its not the kind of thing that'd really work. And while it'd be a slightly major change for 1 of the changes, Not sure how well it'd fit into the game. So all things considered- i'm cool with the current state of them.
    Last edited by Creed; 2012-03-22 at 10:08 PM.

  18. #18
    Looking at the new Bandit's Guile tooltip it looks like the buff doesn't fade when switching targets. Is this the case, fox?

    Also, is the Adrenaline Rush glyph still in?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Creed View Post
    1) Yes, a hybrid can do the damage of a rogue in most if not all cases. This is wrong, and should be fixed. A hybridn should never, under any equal circumstance, beat a pure class. That, of course, is in a perfect world.
    2) Rogues...should be in a group for DPS- this is PvE I'm talking.. you cant solo a raid. Not sure what the argument is here...
    That is the problem, Blizzard doesn't differentiate between hybrid and pure classes anymore. They claim that it is ok, if a hybrid beats a pure class. That brings the problem of setup preferences, i have a druid and a rogue. But i'm much more flexible if i play my druid, i can change specc and heal or tank if needed. The rogue is NOT entitled to be the best dps (with the other pure dps classes). I think what i'm meaning is that there is no reason anymore to play a rogue.

    You want to play a melee class? Go warrior, paladin, monk, dk or druid all can play melee but they bring something else to the table. As a rogue you are bound to your role. In my opinion the pure classes should be extremely fun to play, since they are in a disadvantage in setup regards.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Findme View Post

    Mages, Warlocks and Hunters are all pure dps, but they are fun to play in their own way because they evolved over the years, they got new abilities, new mechanics. The rogue has the same mechanic, nothing really which brings fun in the game.
    You can't throw out the word "fun" as an argument, because it is something very personal.

    You may not have fun with it, but I'm sure many people find the rogue arsenal to be fun. Sap, Gouge, Blind, Redirect Kidney, Vanish Cheap shot / Garrote, Dance Sap, Dance Garrote, Dance Cheap, Shadowstep Kick, Shadowstep gouge, not even mentioning all the different, tricky scenarios where you can effectively use your bomb or your Shadow step.

    If anything, the rogue arsenal is FAR TOO BIG when compared to other classes, flashy or not.

    Your mechanics with energy regen and redirect and smoke bomb and shadow dance being an actual good spec also changed. I don't know what you're talking about.

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