[Rogue] Official Beta Discussion

[Deleted]

With the change to Bandit's Guile we really have no reason to use Versatility, making Anticipation the obvious talent choice. So option #3.
Anticipation is good in other ways too. For example, making all your SnDs 5 points, while refreshing at 0 seconds and not wasting any cp/energy. Also you can spam SS more during AR if you're at a high point on energy so you don't cap so bad when you use a finisher.

Thats what i get for not reading everything. See it mentioned above, the Bandit's Guile change. Well, that will make it easy to choose then.

Cant wait to get into the Beta and Test Rogues

[Mafic]

My initial thoughts:

PVE Sub: Arguably will have the easiest rotation and will still retain some utility, although having to choose between prep and shadow step stings a bit. Still, overall I think this will be the go to PVE spec unless something drastically changes for the other two specs.

PVE Assassination: Streamlining of utility and lethal poisons makes the rotation easier, but overall there isn't much flavor to this tree at all. Vendetta for example is straight forward.

PVE Combat: I like how Revealing Strike is seeing an increased role in the rotation, but sinister strike simply is underwhelming. It hits for tiny amount for the amount of energy it uses. Something has to give honestly. I still don't understand what they are trying to do with Killing Spree.

PVP Sub: Still the go to spec until the other two specs see some improvements.

PVP Assassination: The new Vendetta is interesting, but again nothing special.

PVP Combat: A lot of the defensive talents have been stripped, and its offensive potential has been left behind. At least BG and Revealing Strike have been improved.

Initial impression suggests to me that Sub is in a good start for PVE/PVP despite having to choose between Prep/Shadow step. Assassination is actually well rounded overall, just needs something to make the tree fun like Sub. Combat is lagging badly in both PVE and PVP based on what we know currently.

The glyphs clearly are in a preliminary stage, but I am disappointed with many of them. I do like the Expose Armor glyph, and smoke bomb glyph. But other than those two no other glyphs stand out really. The Kspree glyph seems peculiar because why not add the ability to return to original starting point base line? The Blade furry glyph doesn't really have any real application in PVE or PVP, and it is big let down compared to the one in Cata. You can shiv a target to apply a superior version of a non lethal poison., so it makes the blade furry glyph redundant.

[Kelticfox]

My initial thoughts:

PVE Sub: Arguably will have the easiest rotation and will still retain some utility, although having to choose between prep and shadow step stings a bit. Still, overall I think this will be the go to PVE spec unless something drastically changes for the other two specs.

*SNIP*

Initial impression suggests to me that Sub is in a good start for PVE/PVP despite having to choose between Prep/Shadow step.

Personally I would choose Preperation over Shadowstep because of Vanish. Prep reduces Vanish CD to 0, and don't forget the Master of Deception buff on Sub (10% extra damage when you come out of stealth).

Potentially Sub could seriously pull ahead because of MoD buff. You get 10% dmg in stealth, choose Subterfuge as lvl 15 talent (you come out of stealth mode 3 seconds after you deal/take dmg), that gives you 3 seconds extra of 10% dmg. When you vanish you have the same thing..... 3 seconds extra of 10% dmg.

Doesn't sound a lot, but it will add up in the course of a fight. Throw in Honour Amongst Thieves + Anticipation kinda looks like Sub will be the spec of the expansion.
I suspect Rogues will be brought along to raids a lot more now for what they can do utility wise, the raid buff as well as the DPS.

[Kael]

I'm not so sure, Keltic, based on some mechanical difficulties I'm reading in the abilities related to target swapping for current Hemo, and the positional requirements still present in Backstab (which will always be there, I'm sure). But time will tell, heh. I hope that either currently or by the end of beta it's in a good place.

In any case, while 10% increased damage being pushed 3 seconds longer per use is nice, that's not going to add more than ~4% DPS from pre-talented stealth, and it's certainly expected for all math in the spec. (3s/2min vanish X Find Weakness)

[Shaken]

My initial thoughts:

PVE Sub: Arguably will have the easiest rotation

ATM the rotation changed but is not easier : Serrated blades is gone, eviscerate don't resfresh rupture anymore. So you don't have to use recup, but it's replaced by rupture.

Live rotation : recup, snd, eviscerate (refreshing rupture)
Beta current build rotation : Snd (giving energy regen), rupture, eviscerate (for damage purpose only)

Still 3 finisher to keep up, unless it's a beta bug (on the blizzard mop talent calculator serrated blades is present, not ingame)

[nnjdmnshdwmstrx]

I was wondering if you've been able to mess around with the group stealth at all, if you've been able to get up to that point.

[Shaken]

Group cloak requires lvl 87. Pandaria pexing is not avalaible right now, just the pandaren start zone. It might be possible to grind with cataclysm quests, but i'm not patien enough to try

[nnjdmnshdwmstrx]

What about the +20% movement Nightstalker buff with our natural +15% movement speed now? Does it multiply that, (along with sprint) or does it just tacking on an additional 20%? I'm sad to see Burst of Speed breaks stealth, I was looking forward to ditching my mount, and BoS'ing around the world in stealth. (Like a Boss)

[Shaken]

It's 20% of your former speed. Just checked the numbers, I walk at 115% out of stealth, 138% stealthed, and 170% under burst of speed effect.

TBH, BoS looks kinda overpowered in its actual state : no cooldown, removing movement impairing effects...

People keeps complaining about our ability to run from combat, this is another -and powerful- way to do so.

Surprisingly, BoS may be a pve choice for specs other than subtetly. Let me explain :

BoS is on the same talent line that preparation and shadowstep.

- pvp : I would pick prep (double smoke bomb says hello)

- pve : Subtetly players (I am) will pick prep for the extra vanish

Combat don't give a shit about vanishing, so their choice will be shadowstep or BoS, aiming for fast target switching. Shadowstep is great, but has a 24 sec cooldown et a relativly short range. BoS is not instant but has no cooldown. Could be a good mobility choice.

Of course, BoS has a 60 energy cost, but has a 4 second duration. with my pve gear ( 400 ilevel) I can permanently be under BoS effect and runaway from anything.

Preparation seems mandatory for arena, but in ctf RBG burst of speed is just incredible.

Imo it will be nerfed : I didnt try yet in warsong or twin peaks but I think you can't be stopped...

[Evolixe]

- pvp : I would pick prep (double smoke bomb says hello)

Movement impairing effects will not be dispelled anymore. So if you do that you are going to cry meeting a mage. Which is why this choice isn't really a fair one at all.

[Mafic]

Movement impairing effects will not be dispelled anymore. So if you do that you are going to cry meeting a mage. Which is why this choice isn't really a fair one at all.

Unless the tool tip or function has been changed in beta, Burst of Speed removes movement impairment effects along with the speed increase, and makes you immune for 4 seconds. Basically it is like Improved Sprint except it also has an immunity to it for four seconds.

Prep though is too intriguing that now you can have double CloS along with vanishes, sprints, evasions, dismantles, and smoke bombs. BoS is a fairly strong talent, but it still doesn't compare to Prep. BoS has an energy component to it, so a combat rogue could probably make better use of it than the other two specs. But with that said, Combat still retains Restless Blades, so BoS is not that appealing for that spec either to be honest. Shadow step unfortunately really doesn't compare to even BoS in terms of potency, so I will not bother comparing it to Prep.

[Radux]

Surprisingly, BoS may be a pve choice for specs other than subtetly.

I wouldn't completely disregard Prep for Assassination. Double vanish for higher uptime on Overkill would definitely still be a solid dps increase.

[Creed]

Personally I'll be going (PvP)
Assass.
I'm between Subterfuge and Shadow Focus. With Overkill, Subterfuge's damage potential is nice..also, 3 second immunity to hostilities means an almost ensured sap in arena. Leaning towards Shadow Focus, though.
Deadly Throw.
Cheat Death.
Prep. (At the end of the day, refreshing ALL OF THE COOLDOWNS is more useful to me than that mobility).
Deadly Brew (I'm assuming as of yet, Paralytic shares Cheap/Kidney DR.. if not DR with other stuns.. And Dirty tricks is nice, but I've gotten by all cata with my gouge being 45 energy and not breaking from bleeds.. Seems lackluster to me.)
AAannnddd Anticipation of course. That pure burst.. A cold-blooded envenom to..envenom? YES PLEASE!

Overall I like the feel and flow of Assassination more this expac. Still need to test it in beta.

Thoughts?

[Evolixe]

Prep though is too intriguing that now you can have double CloS along with vanishes, sprints, evasions, dismantles, and smoke bombs. BoS is a fairly strong talent, but it still doesn't compare to Prep. BoS has an energy component to it, so a combat rogue could probably make better use of it than the other two specs. But with that said, Combat still retains Restless Blades, so BoS is not that appealing for that spec either to be honest. Shadow step unfortunately really doesn't compare to even BoS in terms of potency, so I will not bother comparing it to Prep.

The problem with having it reset so many things is the fact that you will never fully utilize it. You are going to be using prep when certain abilities it resets aren't on cooldown yet. You can't get around that since sometimes, often actually, you need a specific ability right then and there.

Prep is strong. But it's use is still limited. Which is why BoS is still my #1 choice.

[Deleted]

What do you guys think about Energetic Recovery being on SnD instead of Recuperate? I think it was quite fine being tied to recuperate for PVP. For PVE it doesn't really matter because you keep both up.

[Kael]

I think it'll open up the spec, since you're no longer required to keep recup up for PvE. For PvE it DOES matter, because choosing between a heal and a DPS increase is, in most cases, a no-brainer on the side of "hit it more".

[Evolixe]

What do you guys think about Energetic Recovery being on SnD instead of Recuperate? I think it was quite fine being tied to recuperate for PVP. For PVE it doesn't really matter because you keep both up.

It's a damage buff, but it makes us more vaunrable to DoT's. Which is exactly blizzard's intention.

If you ever think you might be switched on though, you should still use recuperate.

But definitely a buff for when you aren't targetted.

[Deleted]

Although its still beta and many things can change, I feel the need to vent off a bit about the incoming nerfs to our class. If we don't speak out our concerns, nobody will listen, sooo... hopefully some of the new glyphs will make up for it!

(Subtlety issues only atm)
Survivability and mobility issues: We no longer receive 20 % more healing, can't Prep for Sprint if we want Shadowstep (which we can't Prep too then <.< ) getting up a Recuperate in pvp will be nearly impossible now, so we die more easily. (Honor Among Thieves doesn't work stealthed anymore, -_- )
There's no Waylay anymore and Crippling Poison is only one variant between the lifeleech poision and the stun poison... but ever tried to PvP without a slow on the enemy? x.x If you want to take deadly brew, congrats, now your Blind and Gouge is only a interrupt in PvP!
Then Hemo gets nearly useless, only another tiny DoT. We are forced to open with a Garrote now or Rupture asap.

I mean, yeah, there are tiny and not so tiny buffs. Nice things. You get Serrated Blades for free for example, Ambush costs less energy during Shadowdance, you can take a few nice talents, like 3 secs unbreakable stealth.
But the major concerns: No passive healing, tiresome bleed mechanics/hemo nerf, and mobility/no slow are there and I don't like them.
And I didn't cover everything yet, only what bothers me most.

I really like the current state of the Subtlety Rogue in PvP. We are deadly glass cannons with a few tricks to survive stuff, but counterable nonetheless. I fear if the game would go live with these changes we would be nothing but kiteable glass cannons :/

So feel free to vent off with me or calm me down.

[Mafic]

Quickly looking over the changes that have been compiled into a list it seems clear that Subtlety will be the go to spec unless something changes. I don't understand the reasoning behind making Sinister Strike and Mutilate with lower energy costs, but also reducing how hard each respective combo builder hits. Decreasing yellow damage isn't what I personally had in mind moving forward. I am curious to see where they take this direction, but I am surprised.

[Maelstrom51]

If you look, every class has significantly lower weapon damage modifiers on skills.