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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Norg View Post
    My point wasn't based on the mechanics that allow players to switch between playstyles. I just believe that no matter how many objective mechanics you put into a game each player will have a selective playstyle that they will go to most of the time.

    I'm not sure how many people who are reading this thread are familiar with the MOBA scene but the pros at the highest level in MOBA games pretty much have to play well as any role/lane but you will always see them go back to their fav role/lane when they play ranked team matches.
    Since you mention MOBAs I'll use a DOTA example, Invoker. Sure, you can sit and use a specific combination of reagents, and probably still do well, but a player that is constantly cycling through reagents, especially during battle, will be a much larger asset to the team (and specifically the kind of Invoker I hate facing ).

  2. #22
    Field Marshal Norg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone Jack View Post
    Since you mention MOBAs I'll use a DOTA example, Invoker. Sure, you can sit and use a specific combination of reagents, and probably still do well, but a player that is constantly cycling through reagents, especially during battle, will be a much larger asset to the team (and specifically the kind of Invoker I hate facing ).
    Haha. Well played. But you and I both know that an invoker is supposed to be played as a "jack of all trades" hero and is really the only example of your point.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-22 at 05:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    You can mix/max your build, but that doesn't mean your build is the most effective. There is tons of combinations suit to players styles and each can suit a different situation or all situations if they so choose. Everything is viable, it isn't like WoW where you pick which of your 3 dps specs do the most damage.

    In regards to the original statement, no. Spouting mix/max crap over your build won't work in this game.
    I think we're on the same page but it's getting lost in semantics.

    I'm just saying that if any player builds/plays the way THEY think will suit THEM the best AND they have a great record to show for it, then it's obviously the most effective build/playstyle for them. I'm aware that GW2 will focus on eliminating the universal viability of some builds (like the phenomena you can see in WoW).

    Looking at the diagram that grandpab posted, which is an official visual posted by Arenanet devs, it's noticable that the three players don't have equal parts of the three roles. Also, with there being a max amount of allocated traits at level 80 and respeccing requires a trainer to reset a players traits, players won't be able to just switch on the fly to a completely different build that is heavier in some other trait line.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Norg View Post
    If they believe their build is the best for what they do and they have an amazing pvp record then it won't really be up for debate. It'll just come down to "ok, but this build is the BEST for the way I play my class". Cookie-cutter specs =/= min/maxing, imo.
    No...this is still missing the point that you will have to react to the demands of a situation. You can have a favourite, sure...but you will not be able to carry on using a mostly offense weapon when more support is called for.
    It would be like me as an ele sticking with air instead of switching to fire when there's loads of mobs that must be taken down or the group will die.
    If you don't do this you will not succeed. It's that simple. Saying people will have a preference ignores the fact that it simply won't be possible.
    I'm going to cry like a little baby when Logan and Rytlock reconcile and have a glorious man-hug

  4. #24
    Field Marshal Norg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelbanes View Post
    No...this is still missing the point that you will have to react to the demands of a situation. You can have a favourite, sure...but you will not be able to carry on using a mostly offense weapon when more support is called for.
    It would be like me as an ele sticking with air instead of switching to fire when there's loads of mobs that must be taken down or the group will die.
    If you don't do this you will not succeed. It's that simple. Saying people will have a preference ignores the fact that it simply won't be possible.
    You can certainly change out weapons according to the situation but that still doesn't change the permenence on the limited amount of traits at level cap. Besides the engi, there are also a limit of two weapon combos you can switch on the fly.
    Last edited by Norg; 2012-03-23 at 01:23 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Norg View Post
    You can certainly change out weapons according to the situation but that still doesn't change the permenence on the limited amount of traits at level cap. Besides the engi, there are also a limit of two weapon combos you can switch on the fly.
    One of which will almost certainly have to be support based. Not dying is going to be quite a high priority I think.
    I'm going to cry like a little baby when Logan and Rytlock reconcile and have a glorious man-hug

  6. #26
    Field Marshal Norg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelbanes View Post
    One of which will almost certainly have to be support based. Not dying is going to be quite a high priority I think.
    Well for a necro, it seems that the obvious choice for healing would be dual daggers (theres really no other combo that is more effective for staying alive). Id prolly switch to axe/focus when going offensive to stay in close range while staying close to the opponent. If you can get an idea of how many weapon combos there are for a necromancer, that's pretty specific.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Norg View Post
    You can certainly change out weapons according to the situation but that still doesn't change the permenence on the limited amount of traits at level cap. Besides the engi, there are also a limit of two weapon combos you can switch on the fly.
    Remember, while you cannot change your trait point allocation, you CAN swap out your major traits at any point in time, as long as you are not in combat. This allows a player to be a bit more malleable throughout a dungeon, or even making a difference between attacking or defending a point of interest in WvW.

  8. #28
    There will also be 12 major traits for each trait line, so there's about 4-6 missing in each trait line right now.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Norg View Post
    Well for a necro, it seems that the obvious choice for healing would be dual daggers (theres really no other combo that is more effective for staying alive). Id prolly switch to axe/focus when going offensive to stay in close range while staying close to the opponent. If you can get an idea of how many weapon combos there are for a necromancer, that's pretty specific.
    Yh...I've been looking more into the necro. The daggers definitely seem to be the best choice for support.
    I still prefer the ele for switching around stuff. Such a varied playstyle will be amazing when things get chaotic.
    I'm going to cry like a little baby when Logan and Rytlock reconcile and have a glorious man-hug

  10. #30
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandpab View Post
    Damn, I forgot about elementalist. They have so many abilities available they're probably the most versatile all around.
    I remember the Yogscast guys complaining about it, and saying they had to make the Elementalist video extra long.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-22 at 09:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Norg View Post
    You can certainly change out weapons according to the situation but that still doesn't change the permenence on the limited amount of traits at level cap. Besides the engi, there are also a limit of two weapon combos you can switch on the fly.
    I think it's going to become one of the "rules" of GW2 that you must carry with you all possible weapons you can equip, and be willing to switch to a weapon with skills that the fight calls for.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  11. #31
    support is more about bringing boons to your team than heals given the very low amount of healing you do with abilities.
    on the other hand, control imo is about putting conditions at the right time (like snares/stuns to allow someone to kite a mob, or blinding it so his next hit will miss, etc).
    and damage well... is there anything to say?

    as such , there are no definite roles, one has to find the right balance between the three to fit the situation.

  12. #32
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Another important thing to note is that the three roles aren't rigidly defined. There is a bunch of overlap.

    Applying enough damage to an enemy can cause them to become more cautious, perhaps attempt to retreat and heal or get reinforcements. As such, by hurting him, by doing damage, you have controlled his movement. At the same time, perhaps he was attacking a member of your party. He is now no longer attacking that member of your party, and you have thus helped to prevent him from taking additional damage. (help = support)
    Hell, maybe all your intense damage did was cause him to switch targets from your ally, to you. Again, you are controlling who he is attacking, while also supporting your ally in preventing him from getting killed. (Think about it: you know in WoW, when you /assist? You're assisting... supporting)

    The same can be said in other ways. Take, for example, the Thief ability scorpion wire. You pull an enemy to you. What are you doing when you pull that enemy into somebody's trap/sigil/mark/well/whatever? Although what you're directly doing is controlling, by pulling the enemy into somebody's trap, you could cause that enemy to take more damage than he would have otherwise.
    You can also use that same ability to pull an enemy off one of your allies, thus supporting him in a way that keeps him from dying.

    See what I'm getting at? Support is pretty easy to explain in that area. Support often comes in the form of boons to allies. Have you ever being going all out to kill somebody, and suddenly realized he was getting healed? You switched targets, didn't you? Well there ya go. Control.
    It's also really obvious how support can overlap into damage - by applying boons such as might, fury, or even swiftness (the faster you get to an enemy, the sooner you deal damage).

    In WoW, some of this does apply, but really only in PvP. In PvE content, it doesn't matter how hard you're hitting the mob with your damaging abilities, you're not often going to control his actions. You might end up out-aggroing an ally, but if that ally is a tank? Unlikely.
    Your actions rarely influence what an enemy mob chooses to do, and it all has to do with the mechanics of WoW being tuned to make the holy trinity function.
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-03-23 at 02:44 AM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  13. #33
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    I remember the Yogscast guys complaining about it, and saying they had to make the Elementalist video extra long.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-22 at 09:25 PM ----------


    I think it's going to become one of the "rules" of GW2 that you must carry with you all possible weapons you can equip, and be willing to switch to a weapon with skills that the fight calls for.
    And i will tell people that try to enforce those "rules" to blow it out their ass lol, i'm one of the people who builds my character to be a jack of all trades sort of person, where i can use the same build for just about everything, do the same in GW1 with some minor changes, sure in some areas it shines better then others but it's good where ever...

    @Norg, i'm pretty sure the reason daggers have so much self healing mechanics is to make up for the fact that you are in melee range as a cloth user and will need to make up for paper thick armor.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    snip - did read
    Exactly this.
    The name of the combat game is dynamism. And it can be much more broadly defined than with the classic this skill heals so it's support track i.e. what he said.
    Nothing can be pigeon-holed and anyone who tries to perform a single role will be doomed to failure.
    As TB said...the fights are chaotic. I love it personally. It forces you to totally think on the fly and react to the situation. It's why I'm loving the idea of an ele so much.
    I'm going to cry like a little baby when Logan and Rytlock reconcile and have a glorious man-hug

  15. #35
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    And i will tell people that try to enforce those "rules" to blow it out their ass lol, i'm one of the people who builds my character to be a jack of all trades sort of person, where i can use the same build for just about everything, do the same in GW1 with some minor changes, sure in some areas it shines better then others but it's good where ever...
    That's not always going to be possible. Not every weapon is ranged. Not every weapon has defensive options in it. Not every weapon has interrupts. Not every weapon can apply debuffs that make a boss's attacks hit for less. Not every weapon has powerful AoE.

    Before you even engage a mob, you can see text under it that might give you a hint as to what kind of abilities you're going to want.

    I'm not saying there's going to be a "This way or the highway" mentality. I'm just saying that you're going to be expected to be able to do whatever is needed. If you go into a fight that calls for some kind of interrupting ability, whether it be a daze or a stun or a knockdown, and you don't have one...
    You're, imo, bad. You can probably still do the fight your way, and there's nothing wrong per se...
    You just might do it better if you were prepared to use an interrupt that you must equip a different weapon for.

    You'll notice specifically in the TB video, there's multiple points where he swaps out to different weapons outside of combat. At one point he sets rifle to one of his weapon set, even though he keeps the greatsword as his favorite one.
    Later on, when fighting kohler or whatever his name is, he tries having mace/shield at one point, and at a later point he tries rifle (when he realizes how dangerous melee is).


    Edit: the fact that you can change up your traits outside of your combat, even though you can't re-allocate points, says to me that this behavior is expected of players.
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-03-23 at 03:39 AM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  16. #36
    Field Marshal Norg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelbanes View Post
    Exactly this.
    The name of the combat game is dynamism. And it can be much more broadly defined than with the classic this skill heals so it's support track i.e. what he said.
    Nothing can be pigeon-holed and anyone who tries to perform a single role will be doomed to failure.
    As TB said...the fights are chaotic. I love it personally. It forces you to totally think on the fly and react to the situation. It's why I'm loving the idea of an ele so much.
    I can see more of your point with a PvE perspective. Still, you have 2 weapon sets while in combat with a 10 second cool down on the switch (same cooldown on switching elements). If you over anticipate wheather to switch weapons or not and end up switching to the set which turns out not to be so great for that situation then you're locked in for 10 seconds. Which is also pretty cool, especially for pvp.

  17. #37
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norg View Post
    I can see more of your point with a PvE perspective. Still, you have 2 weapon sets while in combat with a 10 second cool down on the switch (same cooldown on switching elements). If you over anticipate wheather to switch weapons or not and end up switching to the set which turns out not to be so great for that situation then you're locked in for 10 seconds. Which is also pretty cool, especially for pvp.
    I haven't paid much attention to the videos, but I think elementalist's 10-second cooldown is only applied to the attunement you just left. Maybe?
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Norg View Post
    I can see more of your point with a PvE perspective. Still, you have 2 weapon sets while in combat with a 10 second cool down on the switch (same cooldown on switching elements). If you over anticipate wheather to switch weapons or not and end up switching to the set which turns out not to be so great for that situation then you're locked in for 10 seconds. Which is also pretty cool, especially for pvp.
    Yh, it will prob feature more in pve. But I can see the same principle applying very much to WvWvW. And even 5v5 structered tbh. I just feel GW2 will overall require much more dynamic and situational gameplay.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    I haven't paid much attention to the videos, but I think elementalist's 10-second cooldown is only applied to the attunement you just left. Maybe?
    Last I checked yh. You can switch to any at anytime...but the one you just left gets the CD (ofc...u could cycle so that all but 1 have a CD lol). Tbh, they've changed it so many bloody times I may be wrong though lol. I doubt it's final.
    I'm going to cry like a little baby when Logan and Rytlock reconcile and have a glorious man-hug

  19. #39
    Field Marshal Norg's Avatar
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IM2r...51FAAAAAAAATAA

    TB talks about healing at 9:51. Pretty good, yet simple, explanation.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Norg View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IM2r...51FAAAAAAAATAA

    TB talks about healing at 9:51. Pretty good, yet simple, explanation.
    Can't watch it right now, but that it was mostly based on u and u can't rely on the team? Yh, true enough. Still holds true for other forms of support and conditions though. They'll be vital. Zergfests where everyone rushes in and tries to bash everything to death just won't work.
    I'm going to cry like a little baby when Logan and Rytlock reconcile and have a glorious man-hug

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