Fangs of the Father - Underpowered?

[Pikapika]

Simply, they are strong due to the higher ilvl which means:
- more weapon base damage
- more stats
- obviously the set proc.

The fact is that the proc itself isn't that strong (i mean the finisher part), rogues get way more damage from raw stats, especially the base weapon damage.

The daggers are 416, same ilvl as heroic Deathwing weapons. Sure there's no 416 offhand other than the legendary one, but offhand dps means little, especially a 6 ilvl gap.

[Kael]

Aaand the daggers are underwhelming because of how little they push us over the DW weaponry. It should be obvious without the capacity for doubt that the LEGENDARIES are best in slot for every rogue spec. That some rogues are wrong (by some value greater than 1% DPS) about H No'k being better than the legendary duo in a patchwerk situation indicates they aren't clearly enough Best in Slot. For every well-implemented "legendary" (let's not bring the bow into this), there's no doubt that it's the best. Going from 406 pre-legendaries to legendary (re-insert caps and thunder sounds at will) 416s is about a 10% DPS increase (for subtlety, in my current gear, and less than 10% for combat), with H No'k and E.Wing only listing 4.8% down, and using the legendary OH with No'k MH reduces that listed gap to 4.5%. Obviously some of the calculations in here are off, but to me, that just doesn't sound legendary.

No one was suggesting casters use the staff off H Rag in place of DTR, and when casters got DTR, their DPS jumped by a (possibly absurdly) large amount. That gap... just doesn't exist with the daggers. They feel like Best in Slot epics, rather than something more, which is where the OP is getting the question from. They're plenty powerful weapons - Verain talks about that a ways back - but they're just not as explosive as the extra ilevels, stats, proc, animation, and lore-value of some prior legendaries.

To further complement the prior argument, "extra stats" can easily include the stacking agility (which, if I recall, is all that's currently modeled in Shadowcraft opposed to the Fury proc), which is quite nearly as strong as (perhaps stronger?) than the Fury destroyer proc itself, depending on circumstance and spec. While it seems to be a throwback to the way Shadowmourne worked, it just doesn't have the same feeling of impact.

[Deleted]

With what little empirical data I have I'd say daggers in combat spec ranges from 1k above on-level alternatives (No'kaled/Sleeper) to a 3-4k DPS advantage all depending on RNG. Like others have said the key to Fury of the Destroyer is not the damage output but rather the minute it shaves off from AR and KS - courtesy of Restless Blades.

While much could be said about the timing and accessibility of the daggers, between the proc, gimmicky Use effect and performance boost they qualify nicely as legendaries.

[Pikapika]

Not to mention the Shadowmourne proc was a hell of a lot more consistent and less possible (impossible really) to be completely wasted.

[Deleted]

Not to mention the Shadowmourne proc was a hell of a lot more consistent and less possible (impossible really) to be completely wasted.

I don't mind the randomness all that much. As soon as I reach 30 stacks I have to be on my toes and plan ahead to maximize my chances of landing all 6 finishers. It adds a layer of complexity to the gameplay that I welcome.

[Hyrican]

What did you expect?

1. A legendary every rogue can get... how many rogues do you have in 10 man? even in 25 mode you don't have more than 2 normally. Almost all rogues raiding can expect to get their legendary. This is different with Tarecgosa. Even in 10man you had 2-4 people who could use the staff for their main role. So it is a hard decision who should get it. In my opinion, this makes it legendary. Your officers have to decide, because not everyone will get it who could get it theoretically.

2. The crazy part is you can farm the clusters in normal mode just as fast than heroic mode is a horrible design decision by Blizzard. Twinks in green gear can solo (or even group up - which should not be possible in my opinion) the quest bosses. The rest is lolmode farming (you can argue normal mode is faster, because you do not have to do progress raid nights).

3.Tarecgosa is for every caster spec and the proc clearly shows that. You can't built a rotation around a proc effect when the toolset is so vastly different between users. Look at Valanyr and the proc effects from Deathwing weapons. All of them are just passive procs and with the exception of the maw of the dragonlord there no amount of work required to use effectively. Fangs are only for rogues.


-> So a legendary proc effect which takes a certain amount of awareness to maximize is at least a way to differentiate you from the run of the mill rogue.
-> It feels different then all the other proc weapons in this tier (and has a passive agi proc nontheless)

Lachtobi is right. It adds a layer of complexity, which is a great thing to do as a legendary in my opinion.

[Sesshou]

1. A legendary every rogue can get... how many rogues do you have in 10 man? even in 25 mode you don't have more than 2 normally. Almost all rogues raiding can expect to get their legendary. This is different with Tarecgosa. Even in 10man you had 2-4 people who could use the staff for their main role. So it is a hard decision who should get it. In my opinion, this makes it legendary. Your officers have to decide, because not everyone will get it who could get it theoretically.

Except that you could have multiple people workign on those staves concurrently so your raids 2nd and 3rd came a whole lot faster than a 2nd dagger. Also the staff was early enough in the expansion that you would easily have enough time to get one. My guild currently has 8 staves (some one told me it was 9 but I can't think of who #9 is) and we stopped running firelands during scheduled raid times like 2-3 weeks into DS and never ran multiple firelands raids during t12, meaning that quite a few of those staves were done in on the side 10m guild/pug runs. Thats what makes it not legendary. I'm not saying the daggers are really any better, but that whole 'omg we had to chose a single person out of all those casters and thats why the staff is legendary' is a load of crap.

[Kael]

Regardless of how many people do or don't get it, if you're making a LEGENDARY (thunder-crackle), it should be LEGENDARY (thunder crackle) in use and appearance and effect.

The sheer # of people who have these daggers and staves I think is personally ridiculous, but if you designed it to be this unique item with it's own quest-line that involves clearing over a hundred raid bosses... you should probably make it not-just-like-every-purple.

[Vishiz]

What did you expect?

1. A legendary every rogue can get... how many rogues do you have in 10 man? even in 25 mode you don't have more than 2 normally. Almost all rogues raiding can expect to get their legendary. This is different with Tarecgosa. Even in 10man you had 2-4 people who could use the staff for their main role. So it is a hard decision who should get it. In my opinion, this makes it legendary. Your officers have to decide, because not everyone will get it who could get it theoretically.

2. The crazy part is you can farm the clusters in normal mode just as fast than heroic mode is a horrible design decision by Blizzard. Twinks in green gear can solo (or even group up - which should not be possible in my opinion) the quest bosses. The rest is lolmode farming (you can argue normal mode is faster, because you do not have to do progress raid nights).

3.Tarecgosa is for every caster spec and the proc clearly shows that. You can't built a rotation around a proc effect when the toolset is so vastly different between users. Look at Valanyr and the proc effects from Deathwing weapons. All of them are just passive procs and with the exception of the maw of the dragonlord there no amount of work required to use effectively. Fangs are only for rogues.


-> So a legendary proc effect which takes a certain amount of awareness to maximize is at least a way to differentiate you from the run of the mill rogue.
-> It feels different then all the other proc weapons in this tier (and has a passive agi proc nontheless)

Lachtobi is right. It adds a layer of complexity, which is a great thing to do as a legendary in my opinion.

So because the caster legendary appeals to more classes, it should be better?

The legendary staff in 25 man was bugged and we were able to complete 3 of em in about 2 months, there is absolutely no doubt that you could make the staves at almost twice the rate of the daggers. Even now they only take a couple months to complete but you can have 1 person working on embers while a different one is working on cinders while a different one is working on siphons which speeds up the process a good bit.

The ONLY reason that staff feels legendary is because of the damage it did and the fact that it is STILL BiS even after a HUGE nerf. Had we got these daggers but at 397ilvl. Heroic No'kaled would absolutely destroy their dmg without any question.

Let's not forget it takes 8-9 weeks in 25 man to complete ONE dagger and you can't even start the next one until that one is done. So while it may take 2 months to complete dragonwrath, to complete the next one it'll only take another 2-3 weeks cause the person should be pretty close to siphons by the time you finish. While the next rogue to get the daggers is going to have to wait another 8-9 weeks.

Oh and also, our first rogue completed his daggers AFTER our first heroic Madness kill. and now they'll end up replaced by some dungeon blues. SOOO LEGENDARY.

[Koji2k11]

also the wings CD is Dispallable tested with mage duel spellsteal and he got wings i guess if they proc in pvp its also dispallable ? i dont know but i feel fucked over 5 min cd and maybe a proc witch are dispellable not much of legendary here

[Pikapika]

also the wings CD is Dispallable tested with mage duel spellsteal and he got wings i guess if they proc in pvp its also dispallable ? i dont know but i feel fucked over 5 min cd and maybe a proc witch are dispellable not much of legendary here

The slowfall buff is spellstealable, the combo point buff isn't.

[Koji2k11]

thats why i said 'maybe' i wasn't sure about that one but oh well still sucks maybe i just skill engineering and get me a parachute witch is not stealable and with much lower CD ^^

[gnomeface08]

As others have indicated, and I'm speaking only to combat, the proc does feel a bit underpowered when compared to past legendaries, but overall the daggers are in a good place.

After waiting for forever to get a proc, I definitely don't feel like I'm wailing away on a boss with legendary weapons. The 6 finishers don't make my DPS skyrocket. In fact, it remains pretty static. That was my only sadface about finally getting the set. My DPS improved in general, but not because of the proc. I don't feel like I'm doing something really cool and special when the wings pop, just spamming a button for little immediate reward. Getting time shaved off of AR and stuff is great, but that doesn't feel legendary, but rather disconnected from the experience of having them.

When our priest finally got his staff, it was very much evident that he had equipped a legendary item. His DPS improved by almost 10k just from that one upgrade. So it does feel a little crappy that we don't see such a dramatic boost, but we're in a good in place even without the daggers, so I suppose it all evens out.

[Deleted]

Nkaled vs Legs, you can look at it like this. Using rupture as combat will get you 1% more dps, but overall more chance of failing on non Patchwerk fight and more to think about while dpsing. So instead of waiting for the Legs to proc and gimp your dps while doing so, just equip Nkaled and faceroll to the finish line.
Very disappointing, those daggers. Specially when you compare them to DWT.

[Vishiz]

Nkaled vs Legs, you can look at it like this. Using rupture as combat will get you 1% more dps, but overall more chance of failing on non Patchwerk fight and more to think about while dpsing. So instead of waiting for the Legs to proc and gimp your dps while doing so, just equip Nkaled and faceroll to the finish line.
Very disappointing, those daggers. Specially when you compare them to DWT.

You are uninformed. Even without fury proccing being considered, the daggers are still better.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Golad-Tiriosh

Read that.

[pocky_rin]

Underpowered I'd say not, but troll daggers I'd say yes. 9 times outta 10 they always proc at bad times, when something dies, when I have to switch target fast, and so on. The only change I would make to the legendaries is that instead of an increasing chance to proc over 30 stacks, you can click them to make them proc any time after 30 stacks yourself. And if you do not use them they proc automatically around 40-50. This buys you a bit of time whilst not being overpowered in pvp scenarios because you still can't take them from one fight to another since you still need the stack to be over 30.

[Verain]

I think making the proc on-use would create unintended issues in pvp.

I do agree with troll daggers though. Corruption down? WINGS. Melee out? WINGS. Elementium bolt at 20%? WINGS. Amalgam at 5%? WINGS. Fading Light? Best have heroic WINGS SON! Boss runs to tentacle? WINGS WILL LET YOU CATCH HIM. Jumping plaforms? WINGS IN CASE THRALL GANKS YOU

[Darkfrosty]

The legendaries are a little to easy to obtain but I do agree that every guild no matter skill should have the opportunity to help acquire a legendary for someone in their guild but they need to implement something that allows skilled guilds to get it much quicker and have mediocre guilds like the OP get it much later. We are a 6/8 HM guild and our rogue just received them almost the same time as the OP. I'm sure the OP didn't miss a single raid since DS hit and our rouge missed a few but only 394 ilvl with the daggers our rogue is up to 405 now.

To answer your question though yes if you are any good at your class then the daggers will be a substantial upgrade. Our rogue went from competing for the top 3 each fight to topping meters every time now.

[Deleted]

I don't get why are people still claiming that the daggers are easy to get? I am not saying it's hard, but which of the previous legendaries was actually hard to get? As far as I know, all of them were either about tiresome farming or simply hoping for an RNG drop. Possibly pre-wrath legendaries that required to kill the final boss were out of reach for average guilds but thats it.

Yes, the daggers are a bit too common because of flawed drop rates. Certainly much less special than the other legendaries (but same can be said about their damage). But that doesn't equal "easy to get". I don't know about others, but 16 solid weeks of farming 8/8 is pretty significant time commitment for me. It's not like "there, have some daggers, lol".


pocky_rin: Nice one calling them "troll daggers", you described it perfectly.

[Verain]

There are two issues with legendaries being "common":

1)- 10 Man guilds need to be able to create legendaries at the same (or similar) per-raider rate. This means that almost all the 10 man guilds have legendaries now.
2)- This is a short tier compared to previous end-tiers, so forming the legendaries needs to happen when they are actually worth using. Getting a legendary reward with a month of raiding is pathetic: getting a legendary reward with no raiding is insulting.

Blizzard seemed to progress regular and heroic at the "heroic rate" for these reasons.


Several guilds completed their legendaries after progression, or with precious little remaining. My guild, for instance, is 7/8, and will likely be 8/8 this week. My daggers arrived when we were already 7/8, so they were no help for progression on anything but Madness.


I would have liked it to work out differently, but given the way this tier is, timing wise, I don't think Blizzard had much wiggle room, and what they did is the lesser of about four evils.