Thread: [MoP] Symbiosis

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  1. #241
    This updated table clears everything up.
    So it looks like the only useful class for ferals is DK.
    And it will give us around 3% dps?

    I don't like it tbh.

    Because our dps will be balanced around "feral base dps + Unholy Frenzy". But if we will have to give away our symbiosis to any other class but dk, our damage will be 3% lower than other classes dps.

    Thats how it will look like:

    Example1: symbiosis on DK, perfect dps balance
    Mage is doing 100k dps by his own.
    Monk is doing 100k dps on its own.
    Feral is doing 100k dps with symbiosis on DK

    Example2: symbiosis on monk
    Monk is doing 105k dps with symbiosis from feral
    Mage is still doing 100k dps.
    Feral is doing 97k without symbiosis on dk.

    I think this system is flawed. The ability itself is useless. Because if you use it, you will do as much dps as you did if there was no such ability and if you don't use it(or use it for not-dps purpose), you will lose dps.
    Last edited by traen; 2012-03-26 at 07:59 AM.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clawtrocity View Post
    Boomkins are finally getting some actual timed DPS cooldowns. It won't just be potions and starfall anymore for us.

    What I'm most scared about is Blizzard trying to factor in the damage gained by our symbiotic friend against us. Logically you'd think they would do no such thing, but in reality we're providing our own DPS in addition to the DPS that we add to our Symbiosis target. It would be foolish for raid leaders to not consider that when bringing us and there may be a lot of instances where because of this druids outshine all other members in the group. In order to balance this they would have to lower our damage output so all of our damage on top anything we can give out will put us in line with other classes.

    If all classes did 100k DPS and on average the buff we gave out did a 5% overall damage increase throughout the fight then Boomkins would be 105k DPS which is more than other classes even though that extra 5k is going toward someone elses numbers. We'll see how they balance everything out.
    To be honest I wouldn't be too concerned about it. Atleast when you look at cata, warlocks aren't being balanced at giving DI to a moonkin, but moonkins are balanced around having DI from a lock. If blizz continues that trend then the classes that are most likely to get symbiosis will be balanced around that dmg increase.

  3. #243
    You get so many cool abilities as feral!

    Shattering Blow - Nice DPS increase
    Soul Swap - Awesome utility!!
    Feral Spirit - Cool utility + DPS increase
    Redirect - Even more utility
    Divine Shield - IMMUNITY!! lol
    Dispersion - ALMOST IMMUNITY!!
    Unholy Frenzy can be a raid cooldown too
    Play Dead is cool for PvP or threat pulling
    Frost nova is good for PvP
    You don't even know what the monk ability is AND we don't know if that's exactly how the system works where they take into account the other person's DPS. We'll have to wait and see how it balances out.

  4. #244
    DPS will never be balanced fully across multiple classes/specs. Something will always be better something will always be worse. To complain because you are getting an extra spell to RAISE your dmg is pretty rediculous as they are trying to add fun, flavor and some complexity to the class. There is still Tricks of the Trade/Power Infusion and others in the game, this really isnt an issue

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Jibjabb View Post
    DPS will never be balanced fully across multiple classes/specs. Something will always be better something will always be worse. To complain because you are getting an extra spell to RAISE your dmg
    Thats the point. Lets look at MoP Savage Roar. It increases damage from all sources(rip, rake, shred etc) by 15%.
    Does it mean that from now on your dps will always be 15% higher than dps of other classes?
    No way. All your other abilities will be nerfed by 15% to keep your dps on par with other classes.

    It means that while giving us unholy frenzy they will reduce base dps of our main abilities. So no, there will be no "extra spell to RAISE your dmg", there will be spell to keep our damage on the same level as before. Otherwise we will LOSE our damage.

    I wish ferals were able to do 3% more damage than other classes because of unholy frenzy, but this not going to happen.
    Last edited by traen; 2012-03-26 at 09:21 AM.

  6. #246
    Dark Intent fiasco all again.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by sahtila View Post
    Dark Intent fiasco all again.
    Hey, at least we're on the active side this time :P As a feral, I only got DI in 5mans with a warlock friend, randoms always gave it to the paladin healer...
    It looks great, but Will It Mog? | Are you fully Glyphed?

  8. #248
    Guardian Druids and Blood DK tanking means both get an extra defensive cooldown with Symbiosis.

    As it stands now some combinations are vastly superior to others.

  9. #249
    Start heading to Lunar

    1 Cast before Lunar Starfall --> enter eclipse --> MF --> Reck --> SF/SS --> SF repeat --> Starfall again...

    or...

    leave eclipse --> CA --> MF --> Reck --> Starfall --> SF/SS

    or...

    MF/SF before leaving eclipse --> leave eclipse --> Incarnation --> enter eclipse --> MF/SF --> Reck --> W/SF


    + engineer/on use/pot
    + KR
    + damage buffs/debuffs (like Hagara etc.)
    + KR


    It'd fun as hell...

    Blizzard will
    a) not balance it at all
    b) remove it if Moonkins will be op
    c) remove Reck from Symbiosis in the beta

    My guess is b!

    but I dont think that we will be balanced around having a warrior in the group like we were balanced around having DI... because I run a 25 man raid and I have another boomie besides me and only 1 warrior ... would make me a sad moonkin :<

  10. #250
    Bummer... Blizz missed out on an excellent pun opportunity in not giving resto's sap when using this with a rogue... oh well

  11. #251
    The Patient Skyepic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    Thats the point. Lets look at MoP Savage Roar. It increases damage from all sources(rip, rake, shred etc) by 15%.
    Does it mean that from now on your dps will always be 15% higher than dps of other classes?
    No way. All your other abilities will be nerfed by 15% to keep your dps on par with other classes.

    It means that while giving us unholy frenzy they will reduce base dps of our main abilities. So no, there will be no "extra spell to RAISE your dmg", there will be spell to keep our damage on the same level as before. Otherwise we will LOSE our damage.

    I wish ferals were able to do 3% more damage than other classes because of unholy frenzy, but this not going to happen.
    Just out of curiousity, why do you feel you should do as much damage as every other class? Don't you feel pure dps classes should be doing more dps than Hybrid classes since we bring Utility that they don't? Maybe im misunderstanding what you're trying to say but if you're arguing symbiosis isn't a good idea because every class you give it to doesn't provide you personally with a 3% dps increase that's pretty silly.

  12. #252
    The Lightbringer Elunedra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    This updated table clears everything up.
    So it looks like the only useful class for ferals is DK.
    And it will give us around 3% dps?

    I don't like it tbh.

    Because our dps will be balanced around "feral base dps + Unholy Frenzy". But if we will have to give away our symbiosis to any other class but dk, our damage will be 3% lower than other classes dps.

    Thats how it will look like:

    Example1: symbiosis on DK, perfect dps balance
    Mage is doing 100k dps by his own.
    Monk is doing 100k dps on its own.
    Feral is doing 100k dps with symbiosis on DK

    Example2: symbiosis on monk
    Monk is doing 105k dps with symbiosis from feral
    Mage is still doing 100k dps.
    Feral is doing 97k without symbiosis on dk.

    I think this system is flawed. The ability itself is useless. Because if you use it, you will do as much dps as you did if there was no such ability and if you don't use it(or use it for not-dps purpose), you will lose dps.
    i know you are a great theocrafter but how did youcome to this conclusion?
    from my point of vieuw in target swapping flights, soul swap & redirect will laso be dps boosts and even for single target the spirit wolfes can also do nice dps

    and what makes you think blizzard will lbalance us around having Unholy Frenzy? as that just seems wrong we should be balcned around not having any buff
    TREE DURID IS 4 PEE

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by stormgust View Post
    Quite honest that you always will have something better to choose from, than the warlock currently offers.
    Yeah but imagine demonic circle for a Tree in PVP, gonna make a tree healer even harder to kill...

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyepic View Post
    Just out of curiousity, why do you feel you should do as much damage as every other class? Don't you feel pure dps classes should be doing more dps than Hybrid classes since we bring Utility that they don't?
    I don't want to turn it to another "hybrid tax" conversation, I just agree to have as much dps as "hybrid" arms warriors do. They do roughly 10% more dps than feral druids atm.

    Maybe im misunderstanding what you're trying to say but if you're arguing symbiosis isn't a good idea because every class you give it to doesn't provide you personally with a 3% dps increase that's pretty silly.
    No. Thats not what I said. I said - I want to do as much dps as other classes, and I don't want to have abilities that reduce my chance to do competitive dps. I like symbiosis, I like the ability to use dispersion for example on bosses like zon'ozz. But I don't want to lose dps because of it. Because other classes have such utility "for free".
    I don't want to choose. I prefer to be top dps without utility than mediocre dps with a some kind of utility. And its not like other classes(including pure dps ones) don't have utility in raid. Rogues and mages were actively used in dragon soul progression raids. And they had BOTH insane dps AND utility.

    How would you feel when first 20 heroic tokens in your guild goes to rogues and mages? Just because they do more dps than you. Does "hybrid tax" mean that you are not getting loot as well?
    Thats what happens in top guilds with council loot every content patch. Why to give token to feral? Lets give it to mage, it will buff raid dps for more. And no one cares that you have BR, stampeding roar and tranquility. Giving gear to best dps class buffs your raid more than giving gear to worst dps class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elunedra View Post
    i know you are a great theocrafter but how did youcome to this conclusion?
    from my point of vieuw in target swapping flights, soul swap & redirect will laso be dps boosts and even for single target the spirit wolfes can also do nice dps

    and what makes you think blizzard will lbalance us around having Unholy Frenzy? as that just seems wrong we should be balcned around not having any buff
    Well, ferals did not have competitive dps since Ulduar. By allowing us to use UF for boosting our dps they will let us come closer to raid top dps.
    I don't know why, but I'm afraid that it will never happen.

    Even more, I'm afraid that now, with 4 talent trees and symbiosis they will reduce our dps to ridiculous levels. I don't have any evidence about it, but I have strong feeling that its exactly what is going to happen. We will get questionable utility in the cost of dps loss. We will not lose our spot in guild, but we might lose our spot in raid on simple gear-check bosses.

    I would be the happiest cat in the world if I'm wrong
    Last edited by traen; 2012-03-26 at 02:38 PM.

  15. #255
    The Patient Skyepic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    I don't want to turn it to another "hybrid tax" conversation, I just agree to have as much dps as "hybrid" arms warriors do. They do roughly 10% more dps than feral druids atm.



    No. Thats not what I said. I said - I want to do as much dps as other classes, and I don't want to have abilities that reduce my chance to do competitive dps. I like symbiosis, I like the ability to use dispersion for example on bosses like zon'ozz. But I don't want to lose dps because of it. Because other classes have such utility "for free".
    I don't want to choose. I prefer to be top dps without utility than mediocre dps with a some kind of utility. And its not like other classes(including pure dps ones) don't have utility in raid. Rogues and mages were actively used in dragon soul progression raids. And they had BOTH insane dps AND utility.
    Seems pretty naive. Classes are never going to be perfectly balanced, there's always going to be a strong class and a weak class. Once again, maybe you're just not wording it right but your arguement is "i'm not satisfied because an arms warrior is doing more damage than me". It seems like all you care about is being competitive in a single target tank and spank fight. Cuz feral druids certainly have better/more consistent AoE, and better burst. If there was no variety (I.E some classes excel single target, some multi-target, some with heavy movement, etc) this game would be incredibly boring and bland. Take balance druids for example, we're the absolute worst on Ultraxion and Spine, yet we're near the top on Yorsahj, hagara, Morchok, madness, and blackhorn. I think that's a pretty fair trade. What your asking for is almost like 100% class synchronization. I think you have the wrong idea/mentality when it comes to damage dealing classes. If everyone just played this game to be the top dps and cried when other classes were "better" i don't think this game would have a very long life span.

    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    How would you feel when first 20 heroic tokens in your guild goes to rogues and mages? Just because they do more dps than you. Does "hybrid tax" mean that you are not getting loot as well?
    Thats what happens in top guilds with council loot every content patch. Why to give token to feral? Lets give it to mage, it will buff raid dps for more. And no one cares that you have BR, stampeding roar and tranquility. Giving gear to best dps class buffs your raid more than giving gear to worst dps class.
    Is this coming from experience are just mere speculation? And who exactly are these "top guilds"? This happens in such a small portion of guilds it's not even worth caring about. I feel like if feral was the #1 overall dps spec and everyone was throwing gear at you this wouldn't even be an issue. But apparently since you're not the greatest class in the world you feel Blizzard has done you some huge injustice lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    Well, ferals did not have competitive dps since Ulduar. By allowing us to use UF for boosting our dps they will let us come closer to raid top dps.
    I don't know why, but I'm afraid that it will never happen.

    Even more, I'm afraid that now, with 4 talent trees and symbiosis they will reduce our dps to ridiculous levels. I don't have any evidence about it, but I have strong feeling that its exactly what is going to happen. We will get questionable utility in the cost of dps loss. We will not lose our spot in guild, but we might lose our spot in raid on simple gear-check bosses.

    I would be the happiest cat in the world if I'm wrong
    Blizzard isn't going to balance our dps around us giving symbiosis to the correct person in raid. Simple as that.

  16. #256
    Blizzard takes Divine Hymn away from Shadow Priests and then gives tranquility to shadow priests via symbiosis... alright....

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by bil View Post
    Bummer... Blizz missed out on an excellent pun opportunity in not giving resto's sap when using this with a rogue... oh well
    this times 9,001 rofl

    guardians symbiosis's look kinda silly except rogue and dk... /sigh
    Still I cry, tears like pouring rain, Innocent is my lurid pain.

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by chinobar View Post
    Why do people keep assuming that...
    Because they never bother to read the tooltip.

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  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyepic View Post
    Blizzard isn't going to balance our dps around us giving symbiosis to the correct person in raid. Simple as that.
    Blizzard's track history with Dark Intent and Spriests/Boomkins does leave one approaching this kind of situation with caution if not resentment. Just saying...

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyepic View Post
    Just out of curiousity, why do you feel you should do as much damage as every other class? Don't you feel pure dps classes should be doing more dps than Hybrid classes since we bring Utility that they don't? Maybe im misunderstanding what you're trying to say but if you're arguing symbiosis isn't a good idea because every class you give it to doesn't provide you personally with a 3% dps increase that's pretty silly.
    Please stop with the stupid hybrid tax bullshit. It's over and done with. A feral should do as much damage as a mage, a rogue and anyone. Everyone brings buffs to the raid. We don't bring more utility than most so please stop with this stupid crap. Every spec should be competitive with every other spec. Now sure, Blizz may suck at balancing stuff and there will be differences but it should be within 1k if equal gear and equal skill. Not a 5k difference.

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