[MoP] Symbiosis

[Deleted]

So, what are people thoughts on the (current) Symbiosis options for kitty?

Personally I like the thought of Spirit Wolves (although spirit cats might feel more fitting) would be sweet, but it'd be hard to convince an Enh shammy to give up one of their dps cooldowns for a "meh" interrupt.

I also like Shattering Blow from Warriors, with TF, Berserk and your selected level 60 talent, sounds like kitty's could provide a lot of burst. The problem being of course we take a dps cooldown and give them a utility cooldown.

Seems like the "best" and easiest in terms of convincing them to switch, seems to be Frost DKs. Give them more AoE dps for a RP dump they don't use often (unless they do in MoP now)

You don't TAKE an ability. You copy it, and use your own version of it, while they keep theirs (and get a copy of one of yours).

Every class will find a Symbiosis button baseline in their spellbook, to be used for when they're connected to a druid.

[flam]

As a resto druid, I would of preferred something more useful. For example, a raid wall, something, ANYTHING, tranq is so so, but when it comes to needing to reduce dmg taken, druids have zero cooldowns for it. Give me pain supression / pw:barrier / aura mastery / spirit link totem (one of these options would be great, dont need them all, although that would be even more awesome!)

[Arielle]

Guardian
Death Knight - Bone Shield Additional Survival CD
Hunter - Ice Trap Kiting Aid
Mage - Mage Ward Kiting Aid
Monk - to be announced
Paladin - Consecration Damage boost if needed
Priest - Fear Ward Utility (re)gain
Rogue - Feint Additional Survival CD for AoE
Shaman - Lightning Shield Damage boost if needed
Warlock - Life Tap Damage boost (for damage spell)/ Survival CD (for use of SD meaning 70% odd dodge)
Warrior - Spell Reflection Survival CD Vs Casters

Mage Ward is not a "kiting aid".

Lightning Shield is useless if you have a Resto Shaman healer.

The only "damage spell" that costs Rage is Maul. And you never press that button anyway. The cost on Lifetap is probably too high to allow for more than niche use.

Spell Reflection is useless vs anything that will actually hurt.

[Deleted]

Mage Ward is not a "kiting aid".

Lightning Shield is useless if you have a Resto Shaman healer.

The only "damage spell" that costs Rage is Maul. And you never press that button anyway. The cost on Lifetap is probably too high to allow for more than niche use.

Spell Reflection is useless vs anything that will actually hurt.

Mage ward slows by 30% on impact the wowhead link shows as 0, have mobs slowed occasionally so rather than having 6 adds all together hitting you, you have 2 that hit you once and slowed and out of range, 2 that hit you 2.5seconds ago and have fallen behind, 2 which hit 5 seconds ago and running to hit you. They reach you and are slowed, the 2 who had hit you 2.5 seconds ago now lose the debuff and chasing you. So you are constantly hit by 2 mobs, rather than getting hit by 6 at once.

Lightening shield, 25 man fair enough more likely. 10 man guild, the shaman is a DPS so the guardian doesn;t have ES so has a damage CD.

Life tap niche use is still a use. Boss has a blade flurry, where each hit does ~15% of the tanks health and 5 hits in rapid succession, followed by a basic hit. Or you can sacrifice 20% of the health before the flurry, get healed back up and have an extra 40% chance to dodge each hit. Boss does a big melee strike every 30 seconds, Life tap 5 seconds before, get healed up, use Savage Defense for 40% more dodge (meaning you will have 60-70% at least), don't take a hit

Spell reflect, prevent 1 spell hitting you is 1 spell less healing you need. If you time the use of it for emergencies that could save you.


To those moaning about 'X ability is stupid, why dont i get Y ability'The Reason a DPS doesn't get a DPS cooldown, and a Healer get a Healing Cooldown is to maintain balance.

Lets look at the early datamine of ret:
Ret got TF which grants 3 HP ever 30 sec. This is GREAT for Ret DPS. Ret DPS is strong since Ret is given Symbiosis. Ret gets nerfed due to having to balancing DPS. Rets don't get Symbiosis, Rets damage sucks.

Or if healer Priests get Tranq.
Priests got tranq. This is GREAT for Healing. Priests are due to Symbiosis. Priests gets nerfed due to having to balancing HPS. Priests don't get Symbiosis, Priest healing sucks. Give priests a random spell which may have situational uses, no balance changes.

Having talents that have situational uses, means that one person doesn't maintain a permenant advantage.

Have a fight with Lots of adds that cast spells, give it to Shadow to give another Raid healing CD to ease the healing or do we give it to the DPS shaman to use another Solar Beam and interrupt all the adds preventing the damage.

We have a fight where a tank has to kite adds, OK the Bear can give to a mage for a frost armour style spell or a hunter to have frost traps. Now no longer need this player to follow the tank to slow them while the tank kites.

This fight casts a debuff that deals damage equal to a high percentage of a players health, the druid can give Symbiosis to a given player so they gain a survival CD so if it targets them, they can pop a CD and make life easier.

[Deleted]

You know they introduced a really neat mechanic called haste which reduces the cast time of healing touch.

The mirror images are of the balance Druid. Take a Xanax.

while i'm glad i was just trolled by a guildie about the mirrors ( phew, near miss ) , can you honestly say haste , will reduce the cast time of HT from 2.5 to anything that will ever have a chance of finishing in pvp ? without the resto talents it's really hard to lower the cast time to anything pvp worthy without gettin 1 of the gazillion interrupts...also 10 sec cd >.> so pointless outside or random situations in bg's

as for PvE usage ? really ? honestly? you are taking a mage to raid ,so that he can HT every 10 seconds wit
h a , say "reduced by haste cast" 2 sec heal ? -.- no thanks, i'm there to blow up stuff !!!

p.s i know my name says mage, but, besides the mage main, the resto/balance is the alt i play the most, so i'm not just an ignorant that is raging :P


what i'm saying here, is that between moonkin->mage the trade is a rippoff !!! the "minor" dps gain is still a dps gain , and i smell they'll work as a good aggro dump, provided it does truly copy them....but the mage gets squat and i want shrooms godamit -.- ( err...Amsterdam's a wee too far away )

[Prod]

WTB giant banner on the front page that says "Symbiosis does not take away any ability you currently possess."

As for people complaining about "how come when using Symbiosis on me, Druids get an awesome spell X, while I only get a crappy spell Y?" The answer is simple, you have your crappy spell Y on top of your regular level 87 spell Z. You can always trust your spell Z to be there; the Druid's spell X depends on composition.

20% damage reduction on a 2 minute cooldown is a joke when compared to things like Hand of Sac, Pain Sup, or the new level 90 priest talent Vow of Unity.

Vow of Unity got removed already.

[Driizzt]

How pissed off would you Druids be, if me....a hunter. Clicked off Symbiosis every time it was put on me(hoping that would cancel any spell you received from me). This spell will be the NUMBER ONE complaint about all forms of play in MOP. PVP/PVE whatever it is, the amount of Raging that will go on with this spell, will dwarf anything that has ever been seen in the 7 years or so WOW has been out. I honestly want no part of it.
There is a reason that in SWTOR with the new Legacy system, that they dont allow you to use...for example Force abilities on your Bounty Hunter. The amount of balance needed for PVE/PVP is not worth the effort. So it was relegated to basically solo use on a long cooldown.
You Druids with your rose tinted glasses can't see how much damage this spell will do to the game. Again, i want no part of it.

[Deleted]

while i'm glad i was just trolled by a guildie about the mirrors ( phew, near miss ) , can you honestly say haste , will reduce the cast time of HT from 2.5 to anything that will ever have a chance of finishing in pvp ? without the resto talents it's really hard to lower the cast time to anything pvp worthy without gettin 1 of the gazillion interrupts...also 10 sec cd >.> so pointless outside or random situations in bg's

as for PvE usage ? really ? honestly? you are taking a mage to raid ,so that he can HT every 10 seconds wit
h a , say "reduced by haste cast" 2 sec heal ? -.- no thanks, i'm there to blow up stuff !!!

p.s i know my name says mage, but, besides the mage main, the resto/balance is the alt i play the most, so i'm not just an ignorant that is raging :P


what i'm saying here, is that between moonkin->mage the trade is a rippoff !!! the "minor" dps gain is still a dps gain , and i smell they'll work as a good aggro dump, provided it does truly copy them....but the mage gets squat and i want shrooms godamit -.- ( err...Amsterdam's a wee too far away )

My word your right!!! How dare a druid actually gain a greater effect from one of their spells. Everone else gains a spell as well as the possibility to gain a druids spell. An we gain a spell that we have needed (resto and balance have always lacked the same survival CDs as others, and feral gain what one they lose)

Lets also bare in mind the the Druid actually requires someone else to actually gain an ability, when everyone else gain a nice new unique ability

I would imagine alot of druids would happily lose symbiosis to actually gain a unique ability, all of the symbiosis effects are situational and doubt they will rarely be needed.

[Deleted]

How pissed off would you Druids be, if me....a hunter. Clicked off Symbiosis every time it was put on me(hoping that would cancel any spell you received from me). This spell will be the NUMBER ONE complaint about all forms of play in MOP. PVP/PVE whatever it is, the amount of Raging that will go on with this spell, will dwarf anything that has ever been seen in the 7 years or so WOW has been out. I honestly want no part of it.
There is a reason that in SWTOR with the new Legacy system, that they dont allow you to use...for example Force abilities on your Bounty Hunter. The amount of balance needed for PVE/PVP is not worth the effort. So it was relegated to basically solo use on a long cooldown.
You Druids with your rose tinted glasses can't see how much damage this spell will do to the game. Again, i want no part of it.

You don't know how to read, you don't deserve an answer.

[Arielle]

Mage ward slows by 30% on impact the wowhead link shows as 0, have mobs slowed occasionally so rather than having 6 adds all together hitting you, you have 2 that hit you once and slowed and out of range, 2 that hit you 2.5seconds ago and have fallen behind, 2 which hit 5 seconds ago and running to hit you. They reach you and are slowed, the 2 who had hit you 2.5 seconds ago now lose the debuff and chasing you. So you are constantly hit by 2 mobs, rather than getting hit by 6 at once.

Only Ice Trap is massively better. Also FS, Typhoon, ME, Vortex. The point of kiting is to not let the thing hit you.

10 man guild, the shaman is a DPS so the guardian doesn;t have ES so has a damage CD.

There are an awful lot of Resto Shamans healing 10m.

Life tap niche use is still a use. Boss has a blade flurry, where each hit does ~15% of the tanks health and 5 hits in rapid succession, followed by a basic hit. Or you can sacrifice 20% of the health before the flurry, get healed back up and have an extra 40% chance to dodge each hit. Boss does a big melee strike every 30 seconds, Life tap 5 seconds before, get healed up, use Savage Defense for 40% more dodge (meaning you will have 60-70% at least), don't take a hit

It's entirely dependent on how powerful heals are vs our HP. Also, regular Rage generation is already super high.

Spell reflect, prevent 1 spell hitting you is 1 spell less healing you need. If you time the use of it for emergencies that could save you.

Lets rephrase. It doesn't work on anything that actually matters (ie. raids).

[Juvencus]

Why did it had to be announced on front page? /sigh

Now this thread looks like an official forums QQ post.

People just close their eyes and refuse to comprehend that: A) we don't steal your god damn spells, B) It's a druid spell and you should be happy you get something for free, C) To all the haters out there, only the druid can sever the connection (besides zoning out/in)

Every class gets their own super fun ability at 87, while druids get a group based one that benefits 2 people. I simply can't find a reason to QQ, let alone understand why other classes have to QQ.

[Jitters]

I have to say life tap looks interesting. It can definitely have a use in tanking especially for the ones that use it effectively. It's going to make the gap in skill between good and bad players larger.

[Sunfyre]

while i'm glad i was just trolled by a guildie about the mirrors ( phew, near miss ) , can you honestly say haste , will reduce the cast time of HT from 2.5 to anything that will ever have a chance of finishing in pvp ? without the resto talents it's really hard to lower the cast time to anything pvp worthy without gettin 1 of the gazillion interrupts...also 10 sec cd >.> so pointless outside or random situations in bg's

as for PvE usage ? really ? honestly? you are taking a mage to raid ,so that he can HT every 10 seconds wit
h a , say "reduced by haste cast" 2 sec heal ? -.- no thanks, i'm there to blow up stuff !!!

p.s i know my name says mage, but, besides the mage main, the resto/balance is the alt i play the most, so i'm not just an ignorant that is raging :P


what i'm saying here, is that between moonkin->mage the trade is a rippoff !!! the "minor" dps gain is still a dps gain , and i smell they'll work as a good aggro dump, provided it does truly copy them....but the mage gets squat and i want shrooms godamit -.- ( err...Amsterdam's a wee too far away )

I honestly couldn't care if the mage got seal form. It's my spell. Not yours.

---------- Post added 2012-04-14 at 09:30 PM ----------

I have to say life tap looks interesting. It can definitely have a use in tanking especially for the ones that use it effectively. It's going to make the gap in skill between good and bad players larger.

Re-read life tap. It's 30 rage for 20% health on a 15 second cooldown. It's pointless.

[ceelion]

okay okay, I didn't read the "no one loses, only gains" part, my post was originally in the Cat thread and was moved here (n00b day for me). Thanks all 300 of your for jumping down my throat :/.

Let's all keep in mind, MY discussion pertains to PvE only! I don't PvP, and never will.

Wolves might not do A LOT of damage, but I'll take free damage (even if small) over play dead and frost nova. That being said I'll focus on finding warriors to give it to and if not them than a shaman. Death Coil would be great on fights where you have to be away from the boss and risk capping energy (Morchok comes to mind right away), but at 40 energy a cast and no CP's I wouldn't take it often.

[Sooba]

okay okay, I didn't read the "no one loses, only gains" part, my post was originally in the Cat thread and was moved here (n00b day for me). Thanks all 300 of your for jumping down my throat :/.

Let's all keep in mind, MY discussion pertains to PvE only! I don't PvP, and never will.

Wolves might not do A LOT of damage, but I'll take free damage (even if small) over play dead and frost nova. That being said I'll focus on finding warriors to give it to and if not them than a shaman. Death Coil would be great on fights where you have to be away from the boss and risk capping energy (Morchok comes to mind right away), but at 40 energy a cast and no CP's I wouldn't take it often.

I'm not sure why you'd want shattering blow in anything but PvP. It's an invulnerability remover on a 5 min CD. Seeing as you said that you don't PvP, I'd be confused as to why you'd need it. (Specific fight mechanics aside, of course).

I'd think you'd be more likely to want to link with a Paladin/Priest for reduction of the annihilation spike style boss spells, or Rogue/Warlock if you need to switch targets. And yes, having a (small as it is) DPS cooldown in any situation where the previous two aren't needed.


This is all assuming your raid leaders haven't already come up with designs for your symbiosis anyway, as it is always best to try and give some benefit that would be useful in the encounter to both you AND your link.

[Clawtrocity]

I'm not sure why you'd want shattering blow in anything but PvP. It's an invulnerability remover on a 5 min CD. Seeing as you said that you don't PvP, I'd be confused as to why you'd need it. (Specific fight mechanics aside, of course).

I'd think you'd be more likely to want to link with a Paladin/Priest for reduction of the annihilation spike style boss spells, or Rogue/Warlock if you need to switch targets. And yes, having a (small as it is) DPS cooldown in any situation where the previous two aren't needed.

Shattering Blow also reduces armor by 20% so it's a nice DPS increase every once in awhile.

[Sooba]

Shattering Blow also reduces armor by 20% so it's a nice DPS increase every once in awhile.

Touché, so good on burn phases.

---------- Post added 2012-04-14 at 07:30 PM ----------

My word your right!!! How dare a druid actually gain a greater effect from one of their spells. Everone else gains a spell as well as the possibility to gain a druids spell. An we gain a spell that we have needed (resto and balance have always lacked the same survival CDs as others, and feral gain what one they lose)

Lets also bare in mind the the Druid actually requires someone else to actually gain an ability, when everyone else gain a nice new unique ability

I would imagine alot of druids would happily lose symbiosis to actually gain a unique ability, all of the symbiosis effects are situational and doubt they will rarely be needed.

You're right to argue with someone who's a little brainless. But you're wrong toward the end of your post. Why would a druid want ONE unique ability when instead they stand to gain a multitude? You then try and claim that some of these are "rarely needed"? Who cares? a Paladin might "rarely need" Divine Shield, but are you going to argue that it's not an incredibly powerful ability?

Symbiosis is arguably the BEST level 87 ability. I think some asshole "clicking it off" should rightly get booted. but to claim that it's weak is shortsighted at best.

[Deleted]

From a PvE POV, if you see what role abilities have played such as cloak of shadow on a multitude of bosses, divine shield/ice block on al'akir, or dispersion on baleroc/majordomo/zonozz etc, this will make druids invaluable for any raid composition. Since it will make stacking certain abilities much easier without requiring every raider to have multiple bis-geared characters of different classes available like top10 guilds are doing.

[Purpleisbetter]

Mage's HT will for sure scale with icy veins, in needs, and the huge spellpower they'll get from breaking its bubble.

In case of a frostbolt / poly kicked, you stamp a HT in the face of a dps. It's not that it will be easy to stay melee range, we already know that.

Still, the rejuv at locks is silly: they give some of the ultimate escaping mechanics (anyone betting DC: teleport will require LoS?) to a hard to kill healer and the lock (a real pvp tank) the chance to get even more self healing then it already has. LOL.

I wonder how much mana can save a r.druid beeing in couple with a lock with the poor mana regen we'll have.

Everything very good for my druid. MoP main toon choice will be a hard battle.

[Deleted]

Well as a shadow priest raiding together with a feral tank in a progress raid i guess i know who gets symbiosis by the feral ;-).