1. #2221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Because "when the beta goes live" does not mean "on day 1 of the beta launch", for one.
    Why does it not mean this - is it stated that it does not mean on day 1 in the ad or something? "goes live" means at launch. Not a month, or a week after. The advertisement is misleading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    For two, because the terms of use that you read and agreed to overrule anything else that might have been said. A very obvious reason for why this is, is that contracts can be amended. If your bank advertised a credit card with a 15% interest rate, and you came in and wanted the card, but with a 16% interest rate, the bank would almost certainly say "sure". They would amend the contract, and you'd sign it, and get your card. And you would have absolutely zero grounds to sue the bank for your card charging 16% interest despite the advertisement clearly saying "15%", since the contract you signed clearly says "16%".
    I'm not arguing about the t+c.

  2. #2222
    "When the Beta goes live" is not a statement that you will get it the moment it goes live. Its saying you are not friends and family, you have to wait for the open beta to go live before receiving your invite. Second people should really understand the English language better, so they can understand the word "when".

  3. #2223
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by potaco View Post
    How can something be "very specifically clear" while being "deliberately vague"?
    Because those are two separate things. When you take the time to clarify that a certain clause is yet to be determined, you are both being clear, and vague. This is not complicated.

    And we've already covered that, per contract law, ambiguity goes against the drafter... so now you're saying that we really do have a legal case?
    Well, are we talking about the non-binding ambiguous statements made at Blizzcon and in the advertising copy, or are we talking about the binding-and-not-ambiguous-at-all statements in the terms you explicitly read and agreed to?

    Because the former are ambiguous, but irrelevant, and the latter, which are the actual contract where contract law would apply, aren't ambiguous in the least.


  4. #2224
    The Lightbringer MrHappy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runawaybishop View Post
    You refer to the advertisement that stated something different to the t+c?

    No matter how many times you say "read the terms more carefully in future" you are still left with a situation whereby Blizzard have angry customers due to something they could have easily rectified. Blizzard are coming out like an old car salesman here - "you bought it, i don't care that the gearbox fell apart". Customers are a lot less likely to want to do business like this again. Thats the real issue.


    Advert and t+c not lining up is deceiving.
    no matter how many times you say advertisement was different it was interpenetrated wrong...they said you get an opportunity to participate in the beta when it goes live...that tells me that at some point in beta i will be able to test it...never have they explicitly said everyone will have beta access as soon as beta goes live...idc what was implied because everyone can think different what was implied. Unless shit was stated explicitly and in writing dont assume shit

    you know that saying "Don't assume things because it makes an Ass out of U and Me" well gz way to make blizz and community look like assess because you did not read ToS and just understood something that you thought was implied as a possibility and turned into fact and now claim false advertizing

  5. #2225
    Warchief marthsk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runawaybishop View Post
    Why does it not mean this - is it stated that it does not mean on day 1 in the ad or something? "goes live" means at launch. Not a month, or a week after.
    They don't state any other date either, thus having engaged in nothing. What you make of it is nothing more than your own interpretation. Funny that you don't require clarifications to assume it's a "day 1" thing, but that you would require excessive clarification to state that it wouldn't be. Problem is, it works the other way around. It really does.

    Quote Originally Posted by runawaybishop View Post
    The advertisement is misleading.
    No, you simply interpret things in the way that suits you best, and believe it's reality.

  6. #2226
    Fluffy Kitten Zoma's Avatar
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    Though I did buy the AP, I was fairly sure I wouldn't be in the first wave, since getting all the AP buyers in at once would be unreasonable. That said, Blizzard could have solved a lot of future complaints by removing the phrase "when Beta goes live." Just saying that the AP buyers would get access to Beta would have been enough to severely reduce complaints.

    Blizzard isn't in the wrong in this matter, but a better choice of words could have helped them a lot.

  7. #2227
    The Lightbringer MrHappy's Avatar
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    "Get a guaranteed spot in the beta test for the next World of Warcraft expansion (at a time to be announced in the future)" does not mean "everyone gets beta access right away when beta goes live"....see that thing where it says (at a time to be announced in the future)...that means your access will be announced some time in the future...aka you will get beta access when we announce it not when you want it.

  8. #2228
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringthree View Post
    You should read that again. I am not apologizing to you or anyone, except to try to excuse your ignorance (note the word "not" before the word "misleading"). It was a statement of pity about your lack of understanding. You may not be angry, but your interpretation is nothing more than self-centered whining because you are ignoring simple facts about the situation to maintain an untenable position.

    I don't need to assume emotions for you. You are doing a fine job of displaying them on your own.
    So, a complaint about a misleading advertisement is whining? Welcome to any wow related forum - where a complaint, no matter how valid, is just QQ.

  9. #2229
    Warchief marthsk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runawaybishop View Post
    So, a complaint about a misleading advertisement is whining? Welcome to any wow related forum - where a complaint, no matter how valid, is just QQ.
    Assuming the antecedent. Quite the debate tactician you are. Only, that is a fallacy, not an argument.

  10. #2230
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runawaybishop View Post
    Why does it not mean this - is it stated that it does not mean on day 1 in the ad or something? "goes live" means at launch. Not a month, or a week after. The advertisement is misleading.
    No, it's not.

    "I'm going to buy a fridge tomorrow when the stores open" does not mean you'll be paying for it right at 9am sharp the very moment they unlock the doors. The store opening is a very specific point in time, but saying "when X happens" does not mean right at that moment. It COULD mean that, but it could also mean after that point. And because it could mean either, the statement wasn't misleading. If you thought it absolutely meant one specific thing, you read far too much into it.

    "I'm looking forward to swimming in the lake when it warms up" does not mean you'll be checking the temperature daily so you can jump in the moment it's warm enough.

    "I'd like to go dancing when I get over this cold" does not mean "OMG it's 8am and I feel better WE MUST GO DANCING RIGHT NOW".

    The idea that "when X" only ever means "right at the moment of X" is just outright incorrect.


  11. #2231
    The Lightbringer MrHappy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    No, it's not.

    "I'm going to buy a fridge tomorrow when the stores open" does not mean you'll be paying for it right at 9pm sharp the very moment they unlock the doors. The store opening is a very specific point in time, but saying "when X happens" does not mean right at that moment. It COULD mean that, but it could also mean after that point. And because it could mean either, the statement wasn't misleading. If you thought it absolutely meant one specific thing, you read far too much into it.

    "I'm looking forward to swimming in the lake when it warms up" does not mean you'll be checking the temperature daily so you can jump in the moment it's warm enough.

    "I'd like to go dancing when I get over this cold" does not mean "OMG it's 8am and I feel better WE MUST GO DANCING RIGHT NOW".

    The idea that "when X" means "right at the moment of X" is just outright incorrect.
    great analogy but people just want their shiny beta now and fail to listen to any reason....this is a matter of "i want it now and idc what it said" vs actual legal terms and what people think they are entitled to

  12. #2232
    Warchief marthsk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnlogic View Post
    great analogy but people just want their shiny beta now and fail to listen to any reason....this is a matter of "i want it now and idc what it said" vs actual legal terms and what people think they are entitled to
    See how well this will go over when they face real-life issues later on within the span of their existence.

  13. #2233
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Because those are two separate things. When you take the time to clarify that a certain clause is yet to be determined, you are both being clear, and vague. This is not complicated.



    Well, are we talking about the non-binding ambiguous statements made at Blizzcon and in the advertising copy, or are we talking about the binding-and-not-ambiguous-at-all statements in the terms you explicitly read and agreed to?

    Because the former are ambiguous, but irrelevant, and the latter, which are the actual contract where contract law would apply, aren't ambiguous in the least.
    To say that the contract is not ambiguous at all is a false statement...

    one (1) opportunity to participate in the beta test for the next World of Warcraft expansion
    Is this one opportunity as in... I get to log in once (and once I log out, my opportunity is over)? Or for one day? Or for a very narrow window of time (as in having the ability to log into the beta if you try at exactly 05:45:00 GMT on Mar. 30, 2012) Or for the entire beta period? Ambiguous.

    (iii) flag the Account so that you will automatically receive an invite to the beta test for the next World of Warcraft expansion product.
    What does "automatically" mean? If they are cherry-picking beta participants, that doesn't sound very automatic.

    LIMIT ONE FREE STANDARD EDITION OF THE DIABLO III PRODUCT AND ONE OPPORTUNITY TO PARTICIPATE IN THE BETA TEST FOR THE NEXT WORLD OF WARCRAFT EXPANSION PER BATTLE.NET ACCOUNT.
    Eligible participants who have multiple World of Warcraft licenses associated with the participant’s Battle.net Account may participate in the offer for more than one of their World of Warcraft licenses and will receive one (1) Diablo III license that will be added to their Battle.net Account, one (1) opportunity to participate in the beta test for the next World of Warcraft expansion, and a World of Warcraft in-game mount for each World of Warcraft license that the participant has associated with their participation in the offer.
    Isn't this contradictory? If there's a limit of one per Battle.net account, how could they receive one for each World of Warcraft account? And if they mean that only the mount can be duplicated, the statement is still ambiguous.

  14. #2234
    Quote Originally Posted by Packers View Post
    I don't understand how so many people are just okay with what has happened with the annual pass. The way the contract was originally worded which I believe said "Beta access will go live with the beta launch" made it sound like we all would get in when right when beta came out, and that video where the blizzard guy specifically stating we would get in the beta when it came out didn't help Blizzards case. *I know it didn't say "You WILL get in beta the second it comes out" but it implied it, it also didn't say something like "beta invites will begin when beta goes live". However everyone on the forums thinks its okay to heavily imply instant beta access and also says it's okay for a company to make a contract that "is subject to change". Honestly, that cant be legally binding, but people are still on Blizzards dick. Seriously, so they can change the contract to say if we signed it we have to give them 50 extra bucks? I mean it's subject to change right?

    Technically the contract could even say "You will recieve beta access when beta goes live" and that still could mean any time during beta since your still getting it when beta is live, but we all know what it sounds like.

    Like think about how unfair we have been treated, I have the AP and I didnt get in beta but I wont try and cancel or anything I just don't see how ANYONE could possibly side with Blizz on this, like seriously, I have never used the term 'fanboy' or really thought it could exist to such an extent, but if you defend Blizz now you will defend them through anything, and to me are the definition of a 'fanboy'.*

    In summary, I don't think Blizzard deserves a class action lawsuit or something of the sort, I just think they should at least issue a public apology for thier misleading actions, and I think if you defend a contract that can change to whatever it wants whenever it wants and a very misleading advertisement, you really should take a look at what you stand for and whether or not you would die for Blizzard.

    Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOyp3u8FNT8 1:56 (The youtube video I was speaking of) "You will also get guaranteed access into the next World of Warcraft expansion beta WHEN IT GOES LIVE"
    learn what the word access means please

  15. #2235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    No, it's not.

    "I'm going to buy a fridge tomorrow when the stores open" does not mean you'll be paying for it right at 9am sharp the very moment they unlock the doors. The store opening is a very specific point in time, but saying "when X happens" does not mean right at that moment. It COULD mean that, but it could also mean after that point. And because it could mean either, the statement wasn't misleading. If you thought it absolutely meant one specific thing, you read far too much into it.

    "I'm looking forward to swimming in the lake when it warms up" does not mean you'll be checking the temperature daily so you can jump in the moment it's warm enough.

    "I'd like to go dancing when I get over this cold" does not mean "OMG it's 8am and I feel better WE MUST GO DANCING RIGHT NOW".

    The idea that "when X" only ever means "right at the moment of X" is just outright incorrect.
    "75% Sale Tomorrow" Means that the store can have a sale for a period of 1 minute at 11:59 the next day. You are confusing being technically accurate with being misleading.

    To push you analogy (tbh i hate analogies) - If someone pays for access to the store when it opens tomorrow and turn up at 9am, to be told they will be granted access in waves and will get in before the store closes, do you believe that is not misleading?

  16. #2236
    Quote Originally Posted by potaco View Post
    Isn't this contradictory? If there's a limit of one per Battle.net account, how could they receive one for each World of Warcraft account?
    I agree with you in the sense that almost all legal documents are a bit ambiguous more so for people who read little to no other legal documents (after reading the Federal disabilities act, I understand wanting easy to read legal documents :P)

    BUT this is obvious. You are ignoring the context. The first part is in reference to D3 and the beta invite and the other one is only referring to the mount, you get the mount on every WoW account but you only get D3 and the beta invite on the Bnet account. Multiple WoW accounts can be on the same Bnet account (I forget how many...5?)
    (On Dark Iron, US Realm)

  17. #2237
    Warchief marthsk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runawaybishop View Post
    To push you analogy (tbh i hate analogies) - If someone pays for access to the store when it opens tomorrow and turn up at 9am, to be told they will be granted access in waves and will get in before the store closes, do you believe that is not misleading?
    If we are to discuss analogies, how about we discuss realistic ones? If a store would ask me to pay to gain access to it, I just wouldn't go. Period.

  18. #2238
    Fluffy Kitten Zoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runawaybishop View Post
    To push you analogy (tbh i hate analogies) - If someone pays for access to the store when it opens tomorrow and turn up at 9am, to be told they will be granted access in waves and will get in before the store closes, do you believe that is not misleading?
    You've never had to wait in line at a store because there were more people than the store could handle? A million people are trying to get into this store.

  19. #2239
    Quote Originally Posted by marthsk View Post
    If we are to discuss analogies, how about we discuss realistic ones? If a store would ask me to pay to gain access to it, I just wouldn't go. Period.
    It sounds like he is trying to make queuing up for something sound utterly unreasonable, to be honest.

    "I bought a ticket for this concert and that means I should not have to queue up with these other people who also bought tickets."
    I shall die here. Every inch of me shall perish. Every inch, but one. An inch. It is small and it is fragile and it is the only thing in the world worth having. We must never lose it or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

  20. #2240
    Quote Originally Posted by Drakoro67 View Post
    Patience is a virtue.
    and virtue is priceless
    There are 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't..

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