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  1. #1

    Learning vs luck

    I've picked up League again recently, despite liking HotS system a lot better with the in-game talents on level up instead of items, and that it's more objective based, but League has way more champions. Yeah simple reasoning here.

    To the point; I got placed in S3 after my qualifiers, so not all too bad. However. I won my first 10 games in a row, got to promo, which I lost, and I now lose a little under to a little over half my games. Some of them because the entire team was just worse than the opponent, myself included. I'm fine with this, it just means I have to learn more and improve.

    Otherwise, I can have very good games, win my lane, have a good score etc...until the bot lane Vayne with 15/1 comes over and just tears everyone appart.

    I just don't see any way (or point) in being so perfect that you can carry a team solo. Some people say Bronze/Silver is broken. Some of those people are boosters. They're directly contributing to that these 2 brackets are broken, because it unfairly inflates the odds of someone who may or may not be good enough, by someone who's way more experienced.

    So is it luck? Perfection? Both?
    Grawr!

  2. #2
    Pit Lord Zethras's Avatar
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    Luck. It’s a complete dice roll on wether or not you’ll get skilled players or bad players, or trolls for that matter.
    Walking with a friend in the dark is better than walking alone in the light.
    So I chose the path of the Ebon Blade, and not a day passes where i've regretted it.
    I am eternal, I am unyielding, I am UNDYING.
    I am Zethras, and my blood will be the end of you.

  3. #3

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Duilliath View Post
    And that should tell me what exactly?

    I don't have a team.
    Grawr!

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    And that should tell me what exactly?

    I don't have a team.
    Well, most Challengers/Diamonds have like 80% winrate whenever they play a new account up from Silver to Diamond/Challenger, even in soloque.

    And yeah, you can carry games solo unless your team happens to feed way too much, and even then its possible unless the fed people are boosters. The main thing is to not only get yourself but your whole team ahead.

    But if you're not good enough to do that then yes, it's mostly about how lucky you are with your teammates.

  6. #6
    If you're a good player than you have a better chance of having the stronger team. For example, you believe you are an amazing player. you now have 4 'dice rolls' that may get you bad players, while the enemy team has 5 'dice rolls'. Ergo, the enemy team is more likely to be worse.
    WoW PvP; Where DPS are healers, tanks are DPS, and healers are tanks!

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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenfinn View Post
    Well, most Challengers/Diamonds have like 80% winrate whenever they play a new account up from Silver to Diamond/Challenger, even in soloque.

    And yeah, you can carry games solo unless your team happens to feed way too much, and even then its possible unless the fed people are boosters. The main thing is to not only get yourself but your whole team ahead.

    But if you're not good enough to do that then yes, it's mostly about how lucky you are with your teammates.
    I understand that, I do, and I want to improve. I just don't know how when 8/10 of the teams I get are people who feed. A lot.

    My best win-rates are with Aatrox top when I can suicide engage and help get the midlaner fed if I can keep my top lane suppressed (I usually can, although there are games were I need the jungler to cover a bit for me). Others being Mao top, were I can TP gank, but again, if I have a difficult lane, I can't get items fast enough to live off nothing but supports.

    Otherwise I support with either Thresh or Leona.

    I focus on not dying, and either feeding myself, or getting by with items enough to get a carry fed. I also focus on getting min. 2 dragon stacks for more offense and push power, and denying the other team from them (I used to main jungling last season, so my situational awareness is fairly decent), or knowing when to ignore dragon/baron and just rush a push to win.

    Problem is trying to tell a team this and if they'll even listen.

    I always try to do my best, just kinda stuck on how to do so.
    Grawr!

  8. #8
    Elemental Lord Duilliath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    And that should tell me what exactly?

    I don't have a team.
    It's solo queue. Rank 1 with over a 70% win rate. Clearly he got lucky.

  9. #9
    From what i've understood over the last 5 seasons is to not blame your team, "blame" yourself and look at what you can do better, there's most likely something you can improve.

    Just do the best you can and focus on getting better, then you will rise.


    What i did back in season 3 i think it was was to just main mid and jungle.
    as a jungler i felt like i could help my team much more with ganking the lanes and getting them ahead and even as mid all i did was stomp my lane as much as i could so i had time to roam bot or top and help them getting kills and maybe a turret.

    Warding for the other laners can help a lot, look out for them too, keep an eye on the enemies and where they are at all times, not just the laner on your own lane

    lastly be possitive, a happy team is much better than a team raging at eachother, cus they will just tilt and make bad plays after bad plays because they don't think
    Last edited by agnow; 2015-05-10 at 03:04 AM.

  10. #10
    Legendary! Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    There is a lot of luck involved in a game, and yes, you can get high winrate through seal clubbing by playing some carry-able characters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  11. #11
    Luck plays a role in almost every video game out there. There is no way to remove luck or being unlucky from them. For every game people cry about them having such a good score and losing, there is a game where they got shit on in lane and someone else on their team carried. So you don't have to care about these games that much. Instead you focus on the games where your team wasn't so far behind or ahead and what you could have done yourself to close that game out. A player who is better than the people they play with will eventually climb out of their bracket. If they're much better then it will be a fast climb, if slightly better then it will be a slower climb.

    Nobody will say you can win every game, it's not about 100% win rate. It's about making it so you win as many games as you can where you can be a deciding factor in the match. To do this involves putting a much larger weight on your own game play than your teammates. Sure missing 10 cs may seem minor when you look at an entire game, but that can translate to having an item advantage or even just a couple of pots and being able to win a 1v1.

  12. #12
    Legendary! Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    One thing you can do by the way, play ~2k games to git gud, create new account and seal club your way to high ranks
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  13. #13
    Epic!
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    You cannot carry a team solo. This is basically how the game works, 40% of games you will win no matter what you do, your team will simply do it for you. 40% you'll loose no matter what you do, your team will just getting destroyed way to hard for you to have an impact. Then there is the last 20%, that's where you come in, these are the games that were close and hinged on small decisions and plays. These are the games the good players will win more of while the bad players will loose more of.

    This is obviously oversimplified but is basically true, As you will see a challenger player can go to silver, have a team do as bad as is seemly possible and still pull out a win but that's not a realistic standard to judge your own play by

  14. #14
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilz View Post
    Nobody will say you can win every game, it's not about 100% win rate. It's about making it so you win as many games as you can where you can be a deciding factor in the match. To do this involves putting a much larger weight on your own game play than your teammates. Sure missing 10 cs may seem minor when you look at an entire game, but that can translate to having an item advantage or even just a couple of pots and being able to win a 1v1.
    ^ This.

    Seemingly minor things about your play will prevent you from getting a kill or a gank when if you had done things just a little differently you would have gotten the kill, or taken the tower, or won the trade. CS is a big example, if you drop any challenger or diamond player into a lane versus any silver, it will become immediately apparent in their CS.

    Now, initially those players would both start out with similar items - but 12 CS is a Long Sword - now the next time you try to trade, not only is the better player better at aiming, better at timing the trade, more aware of where the enemy jungler is, but has a tangible advantage on their abilities and autoattacks: so even if you trade abilities and AAs with them perfectly, you come out weaker for it because they are ahead on CS.

    League is a game about snowballing those little advantages - while denying your opponents the same advantages.

    The other thing I see in solo queue a lot is people don't understand that winning their own lane isn't enough. So say for example your a mid laner, and your just decimating the enemy midlane - but then the enemy ADC shows up and is 15:1 and it feels like it's game over. Usually this is the point where the winning mid laner flips their shit at their teammates for feeding Vayne in bot lane, then rage quits or surrenders before either team has taken a tier 2 tower. In reality, it's actually their fault that the enemy Vayne is fed.

    The logic in their head goes something like this, "I won my lane, if everyone on my team had just also won their lane phases - we could win the game" - but just think about how silly an ideology that is. If everyone on your team won their lanes, you wouldn't just win - you would stomp your opponents like Beginner Bots.

    PvP is about that battle for control against rivals - you need to expect that in any given game your team might win a lane, and their team might win a lane: PvP is what comes after, it's not about shitting on the level 8 Viktor that got queued into an L30 match with his friends. So if you win your lane, you get some kills or you push down the first tower, rather than overextending into their jungle trying to chase more mid kills and/or take the next tower, go Bot and help shut down the Vayne before she comes mid.

    If she's fed and you can't see her on the map, you need to communicate that - fall back and regroup, ward so you can find her before she finds you, wait for her to go roam somewhere and instead collapse on her as a team: where you can outnumber her. If you're 5:0 or something midlane and pushing the second tower, your stalemating your lane due to the higher risk of being ganked, the shield tower effect, and the distance you need to travel from safety/spawn - instead push your lane up just a bit, and then go roam and translate your lead into a lead in another lane.

    So generally, if a Top lane gets a lead you get a cascade effect - they push their first tower, and then roam into mid potentially with mid+jungler+top, and suddenly mid lane is at a clear lead too. Or if Bot lane gets a runaway, they either roam mid or use their dominance to take dragons. So usually in solo queue those duelist problems come from either a mid laner who wins their lane, but then doesn't help the other lanes that might be struggling - or a jungler who either spends too much time farming, or who continually pressures a winning lane (because they want kills/assists, or because they like the synergy) even after an advantage is established.

    You need to translate a mid lane lead into a top or bot roam (depending on which enemy lane is winning or overextending). As a jungler you need to weigh up whether to continually hammer the same lane, or to counter-balance the strongest enemy to prevent their snowball. Junglers have the most meta-stuff to think about here. So if one lane has a much stronger enemy player than your team, counter-balancing that strength is the more straight forward choice: keep turning that 2v2 into a 3v2 in bot lane - and the enemy Vayne will have a much harder time going hard into your derpy Varus that keeps trying to go toe-to-toe with her.

    Alternately, if you anticipate they have a stronger mid or top pick than your teams in the early levels, or they picked a snowball champion that will fall off if they can't get early kills - you might want to keep ganking them in the early lane to shut them down. When Elise was stronger she was my go-to pick for that style of jungling, where I would build specifically to counter whichever lane I planned to sit on in the early game - and then after we got their first tower or a few kills there, we would suddenly have a 2 person roam going - and could cascade into the other lanes. Of course, you also have to anticipate how the enemy jungler is playing and counterplay that.

    So ya, even in solo queue - CS, map awareness, and roaming / converting a lead in one lane into a lead in an adjacent lane - are things that all help to take what might seem like flawless personal gameplay in your lane, and convert it into actual team wins - rather than just that, "I won my lane, it's not my fault we lost" mentality.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2015-05-10 at 10:09 PM.
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  15. #15
    Legendary! Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    One thing that annoys me most if both dota and lol is that people don't understand power spikes. Enemy ADC have only doran's blade and didn't backed in first 8 minutes to buy anything while you did? Go balls on him why do you stuck under tower and farm you dummy, he has almost 100 less AD than you, punish him for that.

    You just got major core item? Now you farm again? What the fuck? Go and force enemy to fight you while your power > than theirs.

    Or you are Leona but you don't ram into lvl 1 enemy when you got ahead of them. So darn annoying
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2015-05-11 at 03:53 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  16. #16
    Pit Lord Anium's Avatar
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    It's dumb luck man. Best thing to do is just play and then play some more, the joys of yoloq bring great times and fustrating times...

    You can win games bronze through to gold purely on having better vision and reacting to the enemy teams "bad" decision making.

    Play smart.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    snip
    Yeah, I guess I'm a bit complacent on some of these. I don't ragequit over a fed opponent though. I've ragequit tqice ever, and that was last season were both games were premade trolls.

    Still, some minor things is the lack of communication I often see. Like I'll have the 1st/2nd pick, and offer to trade so I can fill in with something that'll round the team off instead of picking either a tank toplane (like say Maokai, I really like him top, and TP has enabled some ganks on bot to help feed the adc) or a mid I can play (Azir usually, depends on the bans).

    In the case of getting countered top (or any other lane), it's between getting every cs and get smacked in the face, or play safe and get half the cs while waiting for a jungler who may or may not come ever.

    I probably have to learn some more jungle champs and main that again. More control. I just don't trust others to do it. .__.

    But yeah, I see what you're saying.
    Grawr!

  18. #18
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Ya jungling is my go-to role when I want to have the most influence over my teams performance - just because everytime I'm not jungling and get stuck with a bad jungler I either feel like I have to micromanage for them, or get frustrated and think, "I will never let randoms jungle for me again".

    I used to prefer Elise for her variety of builds to counter just about anyone (but it had to be specific) - so if you know you are going to fight a toplane riven, it's easy to build AP/armor items and keep hitting top lane for the first few levels until Riven falls behind - or if you know you are fighting an AP mid, you can stack MR items for the same reason, and she has great builds in either direction (or did). The flip side is when I knew I wasnt sure which lane was their threat or weakness, I'd pick someone with good gank synergy (Vi generally, Sej nowadays) - or Evelynn as a "I'm everywhere, making you nervous" style: where I could hit top lane, hit bot lane, hit mid lane - wherever the opportunity lay.

    I think my bias to jungle though could just be bias - while I honestly believe Jungle has the most influence on team success, that may just be because it's my strength. A friend is a diamond ADC and feels most in control of the game when he's ADC or at least support - on the grounds that a runaway ADC is what wins late game: and attaining that or preventing his opponent from attaining that makes the most difference. I see the logic, even if I don't feel it.
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  19. #19
    Immortal Guru Laghima's Avatar
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    You can carry yourself to Diamond 5 in one season from any part of the ladder, I've known a couple guys who went from Bronze to Diamond 5 in one season. The hard part is getting through the rest of Diamond, that's where it steps the play up tremendously.

    In other words you just have to play a lot to get better and focus on getting better. Did you pressure that objective at the right time, are you focusing on the enemy laners. How much mana do they have, is it a lv 6 Zed while I'm the lv 5 Ahri? You have notice these things and make a conscious effort to so it eventually becomes a natural feeling (without any effort so to speak).

    The key thing to reiterate again is to play a lot of games, if you can play up to 7+ games a day then you'll get so much higher on the ladder.
    You've probably never heard of him.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    snip
    No, I agree. As a jungler, you can effectively feed the entire team unless they really suck. Like if they die the second you go away from a successful gank and the enemy jungler got there because the lane refused to back off, and staying would be suicide. Or if all lanes just straight up start dying immediately for whatever reason.

    Still, you can focus one lane that isn't entirely lobotimized and try to carry with them.

    Another thing is if your team just pushes hard and initially will do well, leaving you to farm. Which should be good, because then you can farm in peace, maybe sneak the dragon to buff the team etc, perhaps smack around bot first to get their aid. The drawback to this is when they don't ward, and I can't ward the entire map for them, regardless of how much I try to, and they end up feeding the enemy team because their jungler has a gank bonanza.

    I'll read up on junglers and see which ones I want to main and stick with that and Leona support. That being said, my Leona playstyle is a bit...crazy-with-no-breaks.
    Grawr!

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