State of Destruction - Beta discussion (PvE focus)

[oraz4000]

Thanks for the reply sarklord but what happens if the sims prove to be true and destro is lagging severely behind the other 2? i mean noone is gonna touch it if its anywhere close as the sims are currently indicating.

[sarklord]

xelnath stated that all 3 specs will be in a 1% dps range of eachother, so lets give him some credit...for the moment .

one side note, dont care much about numbers, they are the easiest thing to fix, the problem is balancing those number in pvp, sigh, and our poor rotation right now.

[Gobuchul]

Why would you give Blizzard credit for knowing their own numbers at this point, though? First we said affliction and demo were way ahead and they said no, we're not seeing that at all, implying heavily that the sim was wrong. Then they suddenly realized their numbers weren't taking the everlasting affliction glyph into account, after which their affliction numbers fell completely in line with sim results.

Then we said demo was way ahead and they once again denied it, until they suddenly realized their numbers had a bug in the mastery effect during meta, causing sweeping nerfs because hey, turns out demo is way ahead...

[Szemere]

Szemere did blizzard post the numbers of each spec they get?

No, they refuse to do this, read one of Ghostcrawlers most recent posts in the big number-crunch thread on US for the actual reason why, which I actually agree with. (and not really going to go into why I agree with it, as that's a completely different topic)

[sster]

Yeah, or you just stop whining please? We all know that according to blizzard, Simcraft's numbers are not close enough to the numbers they get, so you should stop valuing them too much.
[..blabla]
If you don't like the spec for PvE progression it's your own damn problem, but stop complaining here, I can't help it that Destro on live has a somewhat higher skillcap than lolfliction on singletarget, and boredemo which only comes down to using cooldowns and meta well. I'm doing fine with it, and I would like to kindly request you to start typing normally and constructively, instead of complaining about things that are in your own imagination.

it is not my imagination when a dev write and confirm in a real raid situation with all the mecanics of raidboss, you're most likely to underperform just because destro's multi target is weaker, its not skillcap related...
plus as he stated , this won't imply to buff single target in exchange

(see other topic for the quote)


tbh even if there is ~3% between destro and the top spec i don't care (assuming destro will not be the top spec, i stoppped dreaming), i'd rather play destro but we talk about non moving encounter, which is pretty rare, and considering the amount of multitarget previous boss got, i m sure that we start with a good handicap, even if the spec is error friendly and "easier" in counterpart.



About embers :

What about starting with full ember ?

because affli has the shard/haunt mecanism and you start at 3 shard which you can refuel quickly, not from 0 shards which you can build as a ressource, why couldn't we have the same as destro : you start with full ember, then use them, then build the ember after that ?


On the same topic, why couldn't we have as a buff on a multi target fight, an increased ember generation ? (didn't notice if it was the case), like :

EmberSoul (passive or active spell)
Killing a creature that yield experience or honor using a Fire and Brimstone empowered spell, refund an ember. This effect cannot occur more than once than every 30s.

[Szemere]

Why would you give Blizzard credit for knowing their own numbers at this point, though? First we said affliction and demo were way ahead and they said no, we're not seeing that at all, implying heavily that the sim was wrong. Then they suddenly realized their numbers weren't taking the everlasting affliction glyph into account, after which their affliction numbers fell completely in line with sim results.

Then we said demo was way ahead and they once again denied it, until they suddenly realized their numbers had a bug in the mastery effect during meta, causing sweeping nerfs because hey, turns out demo is way ahead...

I doubt simcraft actually also abuses bugs. Whenever backdraft didn't work for Incinerate, simcraft still used backdraft on incinerate, because it assumed it worked.

Sure, simcraft might sim an incorrect 20% difference between demo and destro, whilst assuming 0 bugs, then according to blizzard this is 0% whilst assuming bugs, but in comes a bug, and it turns it into an actual 20% difference because of said bug.
Doesn't make simcraft any more right/less wrong, whatsoever.

[Gobuchul]

Doesn't make simcraft any more right/less wrong, whatsoever.

Of course it does, unless you expect bugs never to be fixed and instead silently be adopted as "intended mechanic". I'm sure that happens sometimes, but it's quite rare in my experience.

Not to mention the affliction case, where there was no bug involved - we were quite objectively right, since they had just forgotten to take a known mechanic into account.

[Sockmaster]

Simcraft does take bugs into account, in order to simulate conditions as close to Live as possible (although the backdraft thing was so obviously broken they probably didn't bother).

The last major bug that I remember is http://www.wowhead.com/spell=47200.
In Wrath, the talent was 12% more damage sub-35%, and it was changed to 12% more damage sub-25% in Cataclysm.

However, the talent was still functioning as before with 12% more damage sub-35%, and Simcraft took that into account.
They ninja-fixed it somewhere along the line though, and Simcraft was updated to reflect that change.

[Gobuchul]

There's a significant difference between live and beta in this regard - on beta we assume things are in flux, and that bugs will be fixed, especially the really blatant ones. When a bug is discovered on live it will tend to stick around long enough and influence people's real raiding enough that we almost always reflect it in the sim.

[Sartre]

Of course it does, unless you expect bugs never to be fixed and instead silently be adopted as "intended mechanic". I'm sure that happens sometimes, but it's quite rare in my experience.

Not to mention the affliction case, where there was no bug involved - we were quite objectively right, since they had just forgotten to take a known mechanic into account.

Now, raid dummy tests and simcraft tests are also matching each other (be it ranking, or numbers) but they keep insisting "x is fine, you will see".
But I am happy that these few events have showed some people that yea it may be wrong sometimes, but it also may be better than blizzard itself.

(Pure science never gets appreciated enough, I'm sure you got used to that =p )

[Whitepepper]

Then we said demo was way ahead and they once again denied it, until they suddenly realized their numbers had a bug in the mastery effect during meta, causing sweeping nerfs because hey, turns out demo is way ahead...

My understanding was that this would end up being a reallocation of damage. More damage in meta and less in caster but the overall DPS would remain the same. Is this not the case? Also, as far as I know we haven't yet received the build with the mastery fix.

[Gobuchul]

Demo was way ahead in the simulations because the sim did not take the mastery bug into account. From the point of view of Blizzard, whose internal numbers were based on the bug, these latest nerfs when taken in combination with the mastery fix were simply a reallocation of damage, as you say. From the point of view of people viewing the sim results, or anyone else doing any sort of math or other predictions based on the intended mechanics, they were a major nerf.

The mastery fix has been live on the beta for a while now.

[Zharradan]

http://www.wowdb.com/spells/101508-the-codex-of-xerrath

anyone else excited about fel demonic fire of destruction come mop?

[Maddara]

What about starting with full ember ?

because affli has the shard/haunt mecanism and you start at 3 shard which you can refuel quickly, not from 0 shards which you can build as a ressource, why couldn't we have the same as destro : you start with full ember, then use them, then build the ember after that ?

That's what I think they should do as well.

>It would give on demand good burst to the burst spec instead of having to charge up. Most likely giving a reason and strength to destro (atm demo/affliction do everything better)

>AOE would work much better.

>You can start with some firepower in pvp instead of instantly getting trained in arena and struggling to build embers.

>You could actually use your CDs with everybody else on a boss that requires a BL pull.



Why they will never do this.

> They wanted the destro lock to slowly catch on fire, this kind of ruins that. (bit annoyed they chose to think of an visual image first THEN map gameplay around it)

> Its too similar to afflictions soul shards and they dont like that.

>Chaos bolt damage would be an issue.

[LeyrHao]

Yay page 100! (somebody had to tell)

[Count Zero]

I understand why is it. When I think about affliction, I think about dark slow painful damage over time. On the other hand, when I think about the word Destruction, all I can think about is explosions, fire spreading wildly, blasting and bursting things down very quickly...

... but that's a personal point of view.

When I think about the specs, I sort of envision Afflic being mostly Shadow with some Nature damage (poisons, and/or them being former Shamans), Destro being mostly Fire but with a respectable amount of Shadow as well as non-elemental magic (not just explosions/fire, but also negative/chaos energy), and Demo being a good mix of Fire and Shadow and maybe even a little bit of Arcane (reflecting more about the origins of Warlocks as being Mages who went down a dark path in utilizing fel magics and demonic pacts).

[Maddara]

When people think of warlocks 99% of them just think of affliction and cant tell the difference. This is how I personally see the 3 warlock specs and how they compare....or at least "should" compare.

Demonology would be a demon fanatic or someone who at a point of desperation thought of fighting fire with fire no matter the cost. This warlock calls upon demonic powers to increase their own physical power and inherits demon traits themselves. Researching into demon biology with probably the biggest addiction to fel, most likely resulting in madness. A durable and powerful aoe spec which has excellent Aoe and strong multidotting. Weak Single target. Example: Ilidan

I see destro as the demonic mage. A mage who fell from grace and gave into fel magic for power at any cost. This type of warlock conjures large unstable explosions of fire. A powerful glass cannon type spec with excellent single target power and strong aoe. Weak Multi dotting. Example: Kael'thas.

Lastly Affliction for the very cruellest of warlocks who enjoy nothing more than seeing their enemies slowly tortured. Most likely former shamans they are masters of shadow magic, torturing the souls of enemies and inflicting them with curses. A life draining durable caster that has Excellent multi dotting and strong single target. Weak Aoe. Example: Gul'dan.

[Gorehowl]

When I think about the specs, I sort of envision Afflic being mostly Shadow with some Nature damage (poisons, and/or them being former Shamans), Destro being mostly Fire but with a respectable amount of Shadow as well as non-elemental magic (not just explosions/fire, but also negative/chaos energy), and Demo being a good mix of Fire and Shadow and maybe even a little bit of Arcane (reflecting more about the origins of Warlocks as being Mages who went down a dark path in utilizing fel magics and demonic pacts).

i actually imagine destro being a molten caster, not just fire. Calling down molten meteors and such.

[Grizelda]

I think of it as the flames of Hell, so it should come from up out of the ground.

A great AoE would be cracks in the earth with Hell fire spewing up. Something like in Naxx safety dance. Who was that...Gothik the Harvester?

[LeyrHao]

I think of it as the flames of Hell, so it should come from up out of the ground.

A great AoE would be cracks in the earth with Hell fire spewing up. Something like in Naxx safety dance. Who was that...Gothik the Harvester?

That would be amazing :O