Paradise or Oblivion

[Deleted]

Thought I should share this with all of you.

[Deleted]

The Venus Project is a noble idea. And when I first heard about it I thought "Yeah!".

But it's not feasible and based completely in theoretical sociology. It's just a crackpot theory ultimately. Sad, but true.

Edit: Ah watching this only brings back sad memories. I'd love to live in such a world, but deep down we all know this won't happen in our lifetimes. Perhaps in a few centuries, but we'll never see it.

[Morae]

While I agree it all sounds nice and all, it wouldn't work. I saw this thing elsewhere before this (and also watched it) and there was comment that summarized it quite nicely. "System, where someone else desings, builds, uses and maintainst the system, which produces everything I could ever want and I don't need to do anything for it?". What happens when that "someone" is you in someone elses mind?

Besides world can't chance right now. It can only do so when the old system collapses and it wont happen peacefully. People are still stuck up on the thought of money. If that loses its meaning, it will be something else than money.

It is a nice dream.

[Deleted]

While I agree it all sounds nice and all, it wouldn't work. I saw this thing elsewhere before this (and also watched it) and there was comment that summarized it quite nicely. "System, where someone else desings, builds, uses and maintainst the system, which produces everything I could ever want and I don't need to do anything for it?". What happens when that "someone" is you in someone elses mind?

Besides world can't chance right now. It can only do so when the old system collapses and it wont happen peacefully. People are still stuck up on the thought of money. If that loses its meaning, it will be something else than money.

It is a nice dream.

That comment is highly irrelevant if you watch the whole thing.

[Deleted]

Could someone summarize the video for me?

[Deleted]

Could someone summarize the video for me?

By consolidating our resources and developing processes of automation, e.g. automated food production, we can create a new society based on science. The goal in life will no longer be about material wealth as material wealth will have virtually no meaning. All resources are available to all people at all times rather than the allocation of resources based on wealth. By creating an over abundance of renewable resources we can alter the social structure of the planet.

Individuals would be driven to challenge themselves in any way they wish. Either through scientific research, art, music, literature or simply through social activities.

[Morae]

That comment is highly irrelevant if you watch the whole thing.

I did watch it all. Though, I might have missed something. Care to elaborate?

This would require chance in basic human nature. I can't produce a reference, but I think there have been studies that even chimpanzee trade food with each other sometimes. People want something for something. Sure, it would be nicer if people suddenly all started working together for greater good without wanting anything for it.

I'm not actually sure what part of my comment is irrelevant.

[Deleted]

I did watch it all. Though, I might have missed something. Care to elaborate?

This would require chance in basic human nature. I can't produce a reference, but I think there have been studies that even chimpanzee trade food with each other sometimes. People want something for something. Sure, it would be nicer if people suddenly all started working together for greater good without wanting anything for it.

I'm not actually sure what part of my comment is irrelevant.

Not your comment, the comment you quoted.

And the assumption that people only do things for a personal gain ignores many, many aspects of humanity.

[Malcho]

I've seen this before.

It really falls to each person.

How badly do each of you want a future like this? Do you like what we and generations after are looking forward to? Why are so many people pissing away time in a miserable job for tokens to get by in an unending cycle of short-term relief and stress instead of being the world's next big asset; looking down, up, behind them, beside them, but rarely ahead?

It hurts to know that things are not right, isn't it? What if your frivolities, your diversions-anesthesia, did not exist?

[Morae]

Ok, so lets assume this becomes reality.

Lets pick a population of 10000 people as an example (could be anything really). Lets assume I was part of those 10000 people. Whatever I want each day is produced somewhere. Lets also assume same for all of those 10000 people. Lets now assume we all get to do what we want. Unless some of these people actually desire and want to actually work hard each day so that rest of us can eat, food will run out.

We can think stuff like that is automated, but at some point somewhere along the line (when I first wrote this part there was big line of A needs B and C, B needs C and D. Stuff like energy, maintenance, parts for machines, somethign to produce said things, ect.) there needs to be people (lets assume those people are part of the 10000 we picked). Now what if that person wanted to paint pretty pictures instead of for example code robot instructions? Will someone take their place? Now who this someone should be? First of all they should have the skills for it, but thats not important. The biggest important part is that someone has to to something and there is no avoiding it. Someone is forced to do something in a world where everyone are allowed to do what they want.

Someone somewhere is always going to take the bullet. In current world, they get paid. What do these people do in this new world? They just don't do it? System collapses.

[Deleted]

Ok, so lets assume this becomes reality.

Lets pick a population of 10000 people as an example (could be anything really). Lets assume I was part of those 10000 people. Whatever I want each day is produced somewhere. Lets also assume same for all of those 10000 people. Lets now assume we all get to do what we want. Unless some of these people actually desire and want to actually work hard each day so that rest of us can eat, food will run out.

We can think stuff like that is automated, but at some point somewhere along the line (when I first wrote this part there was big line of A needs B and C, B needs C and D. Stuff like energy, maintenance, parts for machines, somethign to produce said things, ect.) there needs to be people (lets assume those people are part of the 10000 we picked). Now what if that person wanted to paint pretty pictures instead of for example code robot instructions? Will someone take their place? Now who this someone should be? First of all they should have the skills for it, but thats not important. The biggest important part is that someone has to to something and there is no avoiding it. Someone is forced to do something in a world where everyone are allowed to do what they want.

Someone somewhere is always going to take the bullet. In current world, they get paid. What do these people do in this new world? They just don't do it? System collapses.

That's also addressed. It works in rotations, chosen occupation versus social duty.

Sort of like modern conscription where you have to do military service but with social activity instead.

[Moogie423]

I can see society moving in this direction eventually, with many steps towards it taken beginning in around 20 years when the Baby Boomer generation is finally out of power and the more open-minded Generation X gets it's turn. This type of society is a logical step in human social evolution, but it will take a long time to come to fruition. I see it being fully implemented in around 200 years if we don't kill each other off first.

I feel like a nerd for saying this, but the Star Trek lore is based on this type of society. And food production will become much easier once food replicators become a reality (They're already in the early stages of development, which I predict will be available to the general public in 30-40 years)

[Deleted]

If only... Sadly humans will never accept change on this scale.

[Deleted]

I can see society moving in this direction eventually, with many steps towards it taken beginning in around 20 years when the Baby Boomer generation is finally out of power and the more open-minded Generation X gets it's turn. This type of society is a logical step in human social evolution, but it will take a long time to come to fruition. I see it being fully implemented in around 200 years if we don't kill each other off first.

I feel like a nerd for saying this, but the Star Trek lore is based on this type of society. And food production will become much easier once food replicators become a reality (They're already in the early stages of development, which I predict will be available to the general public in 30-40 years)

Yeah....food replicators? There's research in Japan, kind of. But there's no such device on this planet right now.

[Deleted]

As someone who has studied economics, a resource based economy completely unworkable. Now ofcourse, the counterargument from these people is that economists are "too fixated on the old system so they cannot even begin to imagine this system". This is their excuse why they ignore all criticism any economically litterate person would tell them.

Better ideas have been created by teenagers smoking cannabis than this.

[Deleted]

As someone who has studied economics, a resource based economy completely unworkable. Now ofcourse, the counterargument from these people is that economists are "too fixated on the old system so they cannot even begin to imagine this system". This is their excuse why they ignore all criticism any economically litterate person would tell them.

This is essentially just another "master" plan that people come up with while high.

Actually it's not workable based on economical reasoning. This system has no economics. It works under a few assumptions:

1. There are enough resources on the planet to provide for everyone.
2. The process of refining these resources can be completely automated.
3. By removing economic incentives and replacing them with social and intellectual motivations we can maintain social motivation.


These criteria can exist, the processes and mechanisms to get there are difficult and often unforeseeable. That doesn't rule it out simply because of economics.

Economics has a limited relevance to social movements. For example there is a point after which economic power stops increasing satisfaction/happiness. In this model there is no economy, so saying a resource economy can't function is redundant.

[frogger237]

Until we can bio-engineer ourselves and remove selfishness and greed(among other things), this will likely never happen.

Colin Quinn once said something like: We are all the descendants of assholes. The guy waiting letting everyone get food before him was the guy who died the guy who cut in line and stole food lived.

[Deleted]

Actually it's not workable based on economical reasoning. This system has no economics. It works under a few assumptions:

1. There are enough resources on the planet to provide for everyone.
2. The process of refining these resources can be completely automated.
3. By removing economic incentives and replacing them with social and intellectual motivations we can maintain social motivation.


These criteria can exist, the processes and mechanisms to get there are difficult and often unforeseeable. That doesn't rule it out simply because of economics.

Economics has a limited relevance to social movements. For example there is a point after which economic power stops increasing satisfaction/happiness. In this model there is no economy, so saying a resource economy can't function is redundant.

Economics is always relevant as long as resources are limited in any way. Once all resources (incl. every conceivable finished good) becomes available instantly and in unlimited amounts (never) economics will be irrelevant.

Without economics we have no way of knowing if our more complicated processes are progress or not. We don't know if we're using our scarce resources in an effective or wasteful way.

And no, there is not a reachable point after which economic power stops increasing satisfaction/Happiness.

[Morae]

Problem with current economy system is that it is mathematically impossible to continue much longer. It bases on exponential growth and there are limited resources on this planet. Some say it is already starting to slowly crack.

Whatever the future holds, it cannot be the current system. That is just impossible.

People also do not change until its too late.

[Deleted]

Economics is always relevant as long as resources are limited in any way. Once all resources become available instantly and in unlimited amounts (never) economics will be irrelevant.

Without economics we have no way of knowing if our more complicated processes are progress or not. We don't know if we're using our scarce resources in a smart or wasteful way.

And no, there is not a reachable point after which economic power stops increasing satisfaction/Happiness.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...019628,00.html

You claimed to have studied economics? Might I ask where and to what level?

And it's easy to tell if we're using them in a smart way. Let's say we create 10 cars and use 10 units of material. Once those 10 are no longer working we can extract 9.9 units of material, this is a better and more effective method than now.

---------- Post added 2012-03-31 at 05:42 PM ----------

Problem with current economy system is that it is mathematically impossible to continue much longer. It bases on exponential growth and there are limited resources on this planet. Some say it is already starting to slowly crack.

Whatever the future holds, it cannot be the current system. That is just impossible.

People also do not change until its too late.

We've got 25 years of Helium left. We've got around 60-80 years of copper, etc etc etc.

Going to suck for my retirement.