[MoP] Misc Demonology Notes

[Jessicka]

It's risky, shadowflame isn't a 100 % win... 30 sec but one charge of HoG is 15 sec.

Two choices, wild imps, glyphed or not.

Unglyphed is not a good choice, too much Rng.

Glyphed : 54 sec actually with 10 % haste, then no Wild imps to help you when on CD. Maybe when the haste will push it to 40 seconds, but it will not be a 100 % pure win for the first tier. Glyph is 95 % mandatory actually... it's silly IMO.

Don't really expect the MC resource to be really 100 %safe, it needs attention.

Edit : 45 to 54

Shadowflame isn't 100%, but then that's just the poor design of the DoT - it should offer 100% coverage, especially given the secondary effect it offers: the current 50% is just an annoyance on the debuff interface.

The MC charges as a resource may not be 100% safe, but I'd put them at 90%+ as you can comfortably get to 10 charges between Dark Souls; my biggest concern is actually 'wasting' them by not getting them consumed in time before Decimation. Or, using them all up and not getting that charge to hit the target sub 25% to proc Decimation at all.

Actually no.. my biggest concern is any of this actually going live. We've gone from one extreme to another; "too many buttons" to "too many resources", it's a complete overload on the UI which seems to end up on the same road as Destruction which only has 2 resources, with a bunch of stance dancing to toggle with in between.

[Paraclef]

I retypo my post

I wanted HoG to be a 12 sec cd, like shadowflame 2 months ago. It was quite easy to maintain MC ( applying shadowflame with 7 sec on MC ). And shadowflame won't scale with haste, I repeat it again, even with the new spreadsheet... coz of the 6 sec duration, simply.

[Inactivity]

Actually no.. my biggest concern is any of this actually going live. We've gone from one extreme to another; "too many buttons" to "too many resources", it's a complete overload on the UI which seems to end up on the same road as Destruction which only has 2 resources, with a bunch of stance dancing to toggle with in between.

It's sad when my final opinion on Demonology's current stance is "Shoulda just made it a tank spec" - and been done with.

[Wispur]

There's some great stuff in this thread, and I ask my next question with all due respect.

Are you guys (and gals) bringing this stuff up in the Beta forums? This definitely seems like it should be a conversation that Blizzard sees.

[huth]

I retypo my post

I wanted HoG to be a 12 sec cd, like shadowflame 2 months ago. It was quite easy to maintain MC ( applying shadowflame with 7 sec on MC ). And shadowflame won't scale with haste, I repeat it again, even with the new spreadsheet... coz of the 6 sec duration, simply.

So you're saying Corruption doesn't scale with haste either, because it also only ticks 6 times? Or are you simply ignorant of the math behind it?

[Jessicka]

There's some great stuff in this thread, and I ask my next question with all due respect.

Are you guys (and gals) bringing this stuff up in the Beta forums? This definitely seems like it should be a conversation that Blizzard sees.

I have a thread on the EU forums here discussing the spec generally, and recently made another here discussing necessary changes to the UI for Demo's Molten Core ability.

Given some posters here are EU, and some are US based; I've found this is probably actually the best place for the discussion, since it's unsegregated and overall, there doesn't seem a whole lot of discussion on either sides Beta forums for the spec. Sadly it seems a few of even the more enthusiastic posters have written of the spec completely already; others still the whole class.

[Xelnath]

And still others love it. Your dramatic hyperbole doesn't lend credence to your arguments.

[Jessicka]

And still others love it. Your dramatic hyperbole doesn't lend credence to your arguments.

From here

I feel ashamed to be a quitter but I've completely given up on this spec atm on the beta. There is no direction, too many fiddly functions and bad QoL with respect to stance dancing and Fury/Mana generation and usage.

From here

[Rogue] Feels like it is headed for a disaster a la Warlock.

It's not just my own hyperbole. The overwhelming message in the thread I posted on the EU forums is that the spec lacks direction and people are unsure what to do with various abilities. A cursory search for the term 'Demonology' on US Beta class forums throws up the exact same sorts of responses which is generally described as "I like the idea, but what do I do with it?"

If people don't know what to do with it, they switch off: That's the exact underlying problem with the class on live, we supposedly have more abilities than people know what to do with. The new design has fundamentally failed at fixing that problem.

Others loved Improved Soul Fire for all specs.

Also, remember that not everyone actually reads up with the theorycrafting, so while they think they're doing it 'right' and it feels smooth; without addons, in particular meters on Beta, it's very hard to judge if playing what 'feels right' or 'feels good' and what ends up performing best end up anywhere close. Just take a look at how much feedback says 'Dark Apotheosis feels great' - then bear in mind that they wont be able to play that way when it comes Live and expect to get anywhere.

[Valyna]

Meta won't scale correctly in that way. We can burn all the Fury in 10 seconds for aoe and about 15 at best in single target. This won't match for some 20 seconds AoE or for one single add swicth that will last more than 20 seconds.

And if meta would last for 20 sec, it won´t match for some adds that last more than 25 secs. whats your point?

I already told you, this will fine for First kill, but this won't scale after when everything will be outdps... This design won't scale, Meta is gonna be irrelevant and pointless.

Reason? This doesn´t make sense at all

[Jessicka]

And if meta would last for 20 sec, it won´t match for some adds that last more than 25 secs. whats your point?

I presume that one of the bugbears of Meta was that it often outlasted phases it was needed; now it seems to have gone completely the other way, while the time between each use hasn't actually shortened substantially on average.

Reason? This doesn´t make sense at all

The ramp up for Molten Core and Fury takes about 90s, on a long fight that wont matter so much. As fights get shorter, a greater proportion of the fight occurs in that initial downtime (which is a little shorter since we start at 200 Fury). When you factor in that for other classes that will use their cooldowns right away, stacked with pre-pots and Heroism and such, that first minute becomes increasingly important - on Live it is disproportionately critical for Demo thanks to the Doomguard for example - with that in mind, the spec will appear to improve at a slower rate than others with gear.

Bear in mind also, that as the major complaint I see on Spine, with Impending Doom potentially causing problems in terms of getting Meta to line up with it's need; that problem doesn't go away; just because Meta will be available, it's ever shortening duration (which is already too short) for when it is needed, on top of both the loss of MC procs, as well as it's RNG will still place heavy limitations it's on capability as an 'as needed' stance. Dumping excess Fury is also a tough issue, since there is a cooldown on re-entering Meta, and it is so quickly used while in Meta compared to it's regeneration that you really want to be watching DBM timers and the like very intently to manage it even marginally well.

Finally, Our Mastery only effects Meta and our pets again now, so with Meta lasting such a short duration (15s every 90, even less when using AoE), it calls into question the very value of the stat. People have been questioning it since Day 1 it was introduced, since we don't get benefit from it 100% of the time. I appreciate it was recently buffed substantially, but even buffs don't dispel those concerns.

[Gobuchul]

The ramp up for Molten Core and Fury takes about 90s

What makes you think this? I wish you guys would provide some sort of napkin math or any numbers at all to back up such declarative statements. Comparing the DPS timelines for three three specs, I really can't find any sign that demo suffers from any "ramp up" issues:





You'll notice demo reaches a significantly higher max DPS at the start compared to the other two specs.

[Valyna]

I presume that one of the bugbears of Meta was that it often outlasted phases it was needed; now it seems to have gone completely the other way, while the time between each use hasn't actually shortened substantially on average.

Well, I prefer to have a short burst phase instead of this crap 36 sec burst which can nearly never be used during a non-patchwerk bossfight, although i don´t bother if it would last another few seconds. My post was anyway meant for this dump reason that it won´t last for 20 sec burst phases when it only lasts 15sec.

The ramp up for Molten Core and Fury takes about 90s, on a long fight that wont matter so much. As fights get shorter, a greater proportion of the fight occurs in that initial downtime (which is a little shorter since we start at 200 Fury). When you factor in that for other classes that will use their cooldowns right away, stacked with pre-pots and Heroism and such, that first minute becomes increasingly important - on Live it is disproportionately critical for Demo thanks to the Doomguard for example - with that in mind, the spec will appear to improve at a slower rate than others with gear.

Thats true, but meta isn´t a that big cooldown anymore so we will see what it will look like when it hits live since simcraft only shows the dps with one sort of gear atm. Now darksoul is even stronger than it has been before and also useable to the begin of the fight, together with wild imps, doomguard, and grimoire of service

Finally, Our Mastery only effects Meta and our pets again now, so with Meta lasting such a short duration (15s every 90, even less when using AoE), it calls into question the very value of the stat.

I don´t know where you got this, but heres the tooltip of mastery:

Increases the damage done by your demon servants by x%
Increases the damage you deal in caster form by x%
The damage you deal while using Metamorphosis increased by x%

[Jessicka]

You'll notice demo reaches a significantly higher max DPS at the start compared to the other two specs.

You see the double peak at the start of the Demo rotation: Imagine those peaks stacked.

Well, I prefer to have a short burst phase instead of this crap 36 sec burst which can nearly never be used during a non-patchwerk bossfight, although i don´t bother if it would last another few seconds. My post was anyway meant for this dump reason that it won´t last for 20 sec burst phases when it only lasts 15sec.

The point of being able to drop the stance and save Fury for another time was I believe to mitigate that first problem. Take Hagara for example, it overruns the first nuke phase, but imagine that overrun could be saved for the next phase - that is I think what the Fury system should be about.

Thats true, but meta isn´t a that big cooldown anymore so we will see what it will look like when it hits live since simcraft only shows the dps with one sort of gear atm. Now darksoul is even stronger than it has been before and also useable to the begin of the fight, together with wild imps, doomguard, and grimoire of service

It's not a big deal no, but that for me is a problem in and of itself; it looses it's meaning and 'cool factor'. It now to me feels like a toggle switch to switch between depending on which ability you want to use; it's more of a roadblock than a big moment since you physically stop your rotation momentarily to do that toggling.

I don´t know where you got this, but heres the tooltip of mastery:

My bad, but the difference between Meta and Caster form is still pretty significant.

[zinnin]

The ramp up for Molten Core and Fury takes about 90s, on a long fight that wont matter so much. As fights get shorter, a greater proportion of the fight occurs in that initial downtime (which is a little shorter since we start at 200 Fury). When you factor in that for other classes that will use their cooldowns right away, stacked with pre-pots and Heroism and such, that first minute becomes increasingly important - on Live it is disproportionately critical for Demo thanks to the Doomguard for example - with that in mind, the spec will appear to improve at a slower rate than others with gear.

I just tested this, popping GoServ and Imp Swarm on pull, I got to 1000 fury with 6 stacks of MC before My 2nd pet disappeared, if you really need to gen fury quickly you can. There is no way it would take 90s (3x that long) to get full fury.

Also not all classes need to benefit the same from heroism, there are at least a few classes out there that don't gain an insane amount of dps from hero (enhance shamans come to mind), BUT even saying that really isn't the same because obviously in sims we do just fine..sure we could do better if hero was delayed a bit, but whatever we still do fine.

Bear in mind also, that as the major complaint I see on Spine, with Impending Doom potentially causing problems in terms of getting Meta to line up with it's need; that problem doesn't go away; just because Meta will be available, it's ever shortening duration (which is already too short) for when it is needed, on top of both the loss of MC procs, as well as it's RNG will still place heavy limitations it's on capability as an 'as needed' stance. Dumping excess Fury is also a tough issue, since there is a cooldown on re-entering Meta, and it is so quickly used while in Meta compared to it's regeneration that you really want to be watching DBM timers and the like very intently to manage it even marginally well.

Right now counting the corruption you would want to throw up, press GoServ, and possibly Elements I have meta just falling off at the 19s when the tendon would be closing. And as I have tried to explain countless times now there is such a minor dps loss if you decide to use meta other then when it is 100% optimal that you shouldn't be worried about it. There needs to be an optimal time to use meta otherwise the use of meta becomes to watered down. Currently we want to use it on cooldown to avoid lower uptime due to wasting the cooldown, on beta we want to use it fairly often to keep dots buffed, and every 2 minutes with DS. If the decision when to use it is 100% meaningless that it will feel overly easy trying to fit our spec to a fight.

[Jessicka]

I just tested this, popping GoServ and Imp Swarm on pull, I got to 1000 fury with 6 stacks of MC before My 2nd pet disappeared, if you really need to gen fury quickly you can. There is no way it would take 90s (3x that long) to get full fury.

Also not all classes need to benefit the same from heroism, there are at least a few classes out there that don't gain an insane amount of dps from hero (enhance shamans come to mind), BUT even saying that really isn't the same because obviously in sims we do just fine..sure we could do better if hero was delayed a bit, but whatever we still do fine.


Right now counting the corruption you would want to throw up, press GoServ, and possibly Elements I have meta just falling off at the 19s when the tendon would be closing. And as I have tried to explain countless times now there is such a minor dps loss if you decide to use meta other then when it is 100% optimal that you shouldn't be worried about it. There needs to be an optimal time to use meta otherwise the use of meta becomes to watered down. Currently we want to use it on cooldown to avoid lower uptime due to wasting the cooldown, on beta we want to use it fairly often to keep dots buffed, and every 2 minutes with DS. If the decision when to use it is 100% meaningless that it will feel overly easy trying to fit our spec to a fight.

All this will then delay and weaken the next Meta by depriving you of the Fury and MC procs the Imps provide for the next minute. Also, if Xenalth is correct and Serv is nerfed for duration, I think it also probable that its Fury generation would be similarly nerfed for similar reasons - to hammer the nail down as it were.

[Fallensaint]

The way I see it, Meta can be used in two very general ways for single targets.

There's Rotation Mode, where you briefly pop in and out of Meta to maintain DoTs and bleed off excess fury. Then there's Burn Mode, where you build up 1k fury, pop cooldowns (or react to procs), and blow everything in one go. Both modes aren't mutually exclusive, and if you want to maximize DPS you'll probably use both in a given encounter. Burn Mode is easier to use, and contributes much more to your damage than Rotation Mode does, so your DPS shouldn't suffer too greatly if you decide to forgo Rotation Mode altogether. Using Rotation Mode can limit the use of Burn Mode, but that depends largely on player ability, the frequency of burn periods, and cooldowns. However, no matter how you use your fury, as long as you don't cap it your uptime should remain roughly the same at a given gear level (though the periods between uses and the time spent in each use will vary).

On Spine, you have ample time to set up Burn Mode on the tendon. You can even pull off some extra tricks like pooling minion energy, stacking Molten Core (in fact, you'll probably have several MC stacks carried over from the Amalgamation), pre-activating Aura of Elements (pop it 30-60 seconds before the tendon appears, then regain the lost 200 fury by burning the Amalg), and pooling HoG/CW stacks if you like, because maximizing your DPS on the tendon is more important than maximizing DPS for the rest of the targets.

As for using Bloodlust/Heroism/etc. on the pull, that doesn't really directly affect Meta's DPS all that much. Demonic Slash is already on a 1 second GCD, so that extra haste won't have an impact on your Meta DPS. Doom is affected by haste, but you can easily pop into Meta and drop Doom on a boss with your base 200 fury. What haste will greatly affect is your fury generation, as faster Shadow Bolts and faster Corruption and Shadowflame ticks would mean faster fury gen. Haste also has a pretty significant effect in execute range by further increasing your already quick Soul Fires, which improves both your damage in Meta and your fury generation in caster form.

[Paraclef]

Reason? This doesn´t make sense at all

Spine HM makes sense. If meta is designed for specifics choices and switch utilities, it won't scale properly. Because the model will turn into Moonkin's eclipse style, and 95 % of players won't make the difference between meta and caster stance. That's why I call this " design fail ". It's not simply about numbers and balance.

So you're saying Corruption doesn't scale with haste either, because it also only ticks 6 times? Or are you simply ignorant of the math behind it?

You are ignorant. Was about MC and its refresh proba. Not exatly the same " scaling "

[zinnin]

All this will then delay and weaken the next Meta by depriving you of the Fury and MC procs the Imps provide for the next minute. Also, if Xenalth is correct and Serv is nerfed for duration, I think it also probable that its Fury generation would be similarly nerfed for similar reasons - to hammer the nail down as it were.

I don't understand how Fury generation and GoServ have anything to do with each other at all. Nerfing the duration of GoServ would be to balance the dps between that tier of talents, fury has absolutely nothing to do with that. Trying to say that they have anything to do with each other is just trying to find design things to complain about.

As for delay and weakening the next meta...this is exactly what I'm trying to hammer into you people heads about micro managing meta.

The dps difference between delaying it and using it whenever the hell you feel like is less then 3% in simcraft, it isn't even something you could noticeably see in a test by test basis. The only time you are going to start losing considerable amounts of dps is if you get capped on fury and don't spend it at all, and that has nothing to do with design decisions, that has to due with BAD PLAY.

You can complain about not liking the fact you would ever have to micro manage meta, and have at least a little platform to stand on. But trying to say that the fact that currently that is how it sims out means that the spec will preform poorly at anything is just spinning stories. The spine argument is hollow, the ultraxion argument is hollow, I have yet to see a situation that the MoP design is in any way weaker then the live design. No matter how you look at it you have far more options and can fit the spec into a fight far easier.

[Valyna]

I don't understand how Fury generation and GoServ have anything to do with each other at all.

The second pet also generates fury like your normal pet

[zinnin]

The second pet also generates fury like your normal pet

I just tested it, and it generated a whopping 72 fury during its duration, a whole 3 shadow bolts, considering that I reached 1k fury before the GoServ wore off, it won't effect fury generation in a meaningful way at all (after a few more tests I have gotten between 60 and 72, never over)

Edit: Another test, went from 200 to 1k fury, no GoServ in 33 seconds, this was with the haste trinket proc, and without the proc it took a whole 35. This is with not putting up doom on pull, however if I did it would only add ~2 seconds since you can easily doom and drop meta only incurring the fury cost of doom.