[MoP] Misc Demonology Notes

[Jessicka]

Not sure what point that post is trying to make exactly, but it is a fact that, apart from during the execute phase, it is currently optimal to only cast soul fire outside of metamorphosis, due to its exorbitant fury cost.

I missed that, thanks. Now Meta is back to being 1 button instant spam *sigh*

Feels like the whole thing is painted into this corner of being unable to have a cooldown, proc or dot being able to be used in one stance or another without forcing the stance dance issue, or making the other stance completely boring.

[Zinnin]

Yea, I agree, spamming the shit out of slash is boring as hell, getting to save MC procs, and soul fires for meta was fun, and having slash as a backup was alright, just defaulting to slash is pretty effing boring.

Edit: I wanted to add a little to how I feel about slash versus MC procs, when I had a bunch of MC procs and fury saved up I felt like a beast going into meta, like, I knew that I was about to bring the damage, now its just eh, I got some fury, I guess ill go into meta and pretend like it feels like im doing something. Spamming instants while running around in circles leaves quite a bit to be desired game play wise.

[Jessicka]

Yea, I agree, spamming the shit out of slash is boring as hell, getting to save MC procs, and soul fires for meta was fun, and having slash as a backup was alright, just defaulting to slash is pretty effing boring.

Edit: I wanted to add a little to how I feel about slash versus MC procs, when I had a bunch of MC procs and fury saved up I felt like a beast going into meta, like, I knew that I was about to bring the damage, now its just eh, I got some fury, I guess ill go into meta and pretend like it feels like im doing something. Spamming instants while running around in circles leaves quite a bit to be desired game play wise.

You can always stick burning rush on and jump a bit too. I find that helps break it up a bit.

[Phoenexis]

Warlocks are like the Dark intent icon ( double facepalm + forever alone face ). Devs don't know how to share idea and point of view, that's the main fucking problem.

People here and on official forums aren't even 0.01 % of warlocks playerbase, we are worst than elitist jerks, trying to communicate with the devil. We are the lonely light within the darkness trying to resonate the almighty " I have no idea what I'm doing " who doesn't even know why people will QQ on the forum, after the release.

They want constructive feedback, while they can't even give some constructive point of view and primal motivations, ideas. There is no solution just because they are acting like autistic people or trolling players, because it's funny. There is no share, it's just " one side " only... sadly.

Very true. Whenever I read a blue post about warlocks I feel like going right up to Blizzard HQ and arguing them into oblivion.

Also, am I the only one who would like to see DF being what they said it would be? A sort of resource that acts as a cooldown with more flexibility. As in it's optimal to "put" it on a 2 minute "cooldown" (building up max fury) and zerging the hell out of everything, or using it earlier for a shorter period of time if you really need metamorphosis and would like to actually do something useful.

For that to happen we should start with full DF, since it's like a cooldown, then blow it at first or spend some DF on something else. We then regenerate 1k fury over the fight and reapeat, unless there's some really important short burst phase in which we really need meta. Once we get out of combat DF should regenerate at a rather moderate rate. Also, Jessicka proposed this marvelous idea about an aura that increases dot damage while in metamorphosis, which would solve the issue of stance dancing for refresh. Bane should obviously go into our normal rotation. I'm not against changing playstyle in metamorphosis, but it seems to extreme when I read the Demonic Slash spamming descriptions.
I thought that introducing this resource would prevent us from gimping our DPS just to keep metamorphosis for more important phases and vice versa.

[Deleted]

Also, am I the only one who would like to see DF being what they said it would be? A sort of resource that acts as a cooldown with more flexibility. As in it's optimal to "put" it on a 2 minute "cooldown" (building up max fury) and zerging the hell out of everything, or using it earlier for a shorter period of time if you really need metamorphosis and would like to actually do something useful.

They should stick to the first meta model where the amount of fury increased the duration of meta, and throw the whole "spells with fury costs" away.
I´m thinking of:
- 50 fury per second, that means with 1k fury it would last 20 seconds, with switching in and out of it like it works atm on beta
- immolationaura working like the old hellfire (that way it won´t end in a melee-range benefit like it is on live atm)
- all spells cost mana instead of fury, so we won´t only get soulfire back to our rota, we would also get wave of chaos
- remove this damn touch of chaos

[Phoenexis]

They should stick to the first meta model where the amount of fury increased the duration of meta, and throw the whole "spells with fury costs" away.
I´m thinking of:
- 50 fury per second, that means with 1k fury it would last 20 seconds, with switching in and out of it like it works atm on beta
- immolationaura working like the old hellfire (that way it won´t end in a melee-range benefit like it is on live atm)
- all spells cost mana instead of fury, so we won´t only get soulfire back to our rota, we would also get wave of chaos
- remove this damn touch of chaos

I agree. This would be much better and more about warlocks. Since when did we have to manage resources? I hate that! Life Tap is here for a reason.

[Jessicka]

They should stick to the first meta model where the amount of fury increased the duration of meta, and throw the whole "spells with fury costs" away.
I´m thinking of:
- 50 fury per second, that means with 1k fury it would last 20 seconds, with switching in and out of it like it works atm on beta
- immolationaura working like the old hellfire (that way it won´t end in a melee-range benefit like it is on live atm)
- all spells cost mana instead of fury, so we won´t only get soulfire back to our rota, we would also get wave of chaos
- remove this damn touch of chaos

This model would still be about resource management, as capping Fury would still always be a DPS loss, unlike the Live model where a definite case can be made for saving it for more opportune moments.

From the other thread:

What about Doom/Corruption maintenance ?

I'd really prefer if they made those mutually-exclusive and/or added enough of a cost so that it's a dps loss to stance dance (like a Fury penalty for leaving Meta, or having charges on entering Meta -- something)

Mutually exclusive is no different from the 'No dots in Meta and only Corruption' model, as with the above model, it doesn't fix the need to change stance to refresh whichever DoT works out best, because there will be a 'best' and that's what you will maintain regardless of how annoying it is to maintain.

I'd probably actually prefer for both DoTs to be castable regardless of form (I prefer to cast them myself, I don't need, or want an autoattack to do it for me and I am eternally grateful they're letting me manage it myself for Affliction for the first in years). Meta, and by extention Mastery, could then buff Meta's exclusive attacks, meaning Molten Core procs could be used in Meta (assuming a reduction in the Fury cost to make it effective to do so) as they are in caster form.

But would that make the spec too easy? Possibly, possibly not. There are still Wild Imp and Dark Soul timings to consider, and managing Fury will still be important. It would however be smoother and more intuitive to pick up, and Meta would feel more important than a DoT maintenance tool, that's overshadowed by the chain of Soul Fires you get from MC charges built up during it.

[Deleted]

This model would still be about resource management, as capping Fury would still always be a DPS loss, unlike the Live model where a definite case can be made for saving it for more opportune moments.

And saving meta is still a dps loss compared to the possibility of using it on CD, and that playsyle is what we are balanced for. So atm we are just screwed if we have to save meta for another 30 seconds or more, compared to other classes which got weaker CDs.
I personally like the fury management, even more than the crap 36 sec cooldown on live

[Jessicka]

And saving meta is still a dps loss compared to the possibility of using it on CD, and that playsyle is what we are balanced for. So atm we are just screwed if we have to save meta for another 30 seconds or more, compared to other classes which got weaker CDs.
I personally like the fury management, even more than the crap 36 sec cooldown on live

Is that much different to the 'Stack with Dark Soul' 2 min cooldown we have on Beta?

[Deleted]

Is that much different to the 'Stack with Dark Soul' 2 min cooldown we have on Beta?

Yeah, since it doesnt take 2 minutes to build up fury from 0 to 1000, and we have the possibility to use our meta for certain burst moments, while we arn´t bound to a cooldown. On live we are just screwed if we have to burst on shorter living mobs like yorsahjs blobs (at least at content start), gunships dragons, spines "grip" or nearly every mob during madness.
It will always end on the "line up as much CDs as possible" thing, but with the fury system we have the possibility to do competitive damage on such things. Live is just like "throwing out all i got and let the others do the important damage afterwards while i´m just tickling the mobs"

[Count Zero]

Mutually exclusive is no different from the 'No dots in Meta and only Corruption' model, as with the above model, it doesn't fix the need to change stance to refresh whichever DoT works out best, because there will be a 'best' and that's what you will maintain regardless of how annoying it is to maintain.

That's why I also suggested a penalty for stance dancing, such that maintaining, say, Doom (if it's the superior dot) would be at such a Fury cost it wouldn't be worth it, or putting charges on Meta so you either literally can't maintain Doom, or doing so is at the cost of your on-demand burst for burst phases.

[Jessicka]

Yeah, since it doesnt take 2 minutes to build up fury from 0 to 1000, and we have the possibility to use our meta for certain burst moments, while we arn´t bound to a cooldown. On live we are just screwed if we have to burst on shorter living mobs like yorsahjs blobs (at least at content start), gunships dragons, spines "grip" or nearly every mob during madness.
It will always end on the "line up as much CDs as possible" thing, but with the fury system we have the possibility to do competitive damage on such things. Live is just like "throwing out all i got and let the others do the important damage afterwards while i´m just tickling the mobs"

The Fury system as applied on Beta achieves the same effect to be fair. What you say is exactly what's good about it; I'm also a big fan of the Glyph of Imp Swarm and Dark Soul Glyph for similar reasons. The spec is about stacking cooldowns and that's fine; I just find is disingenuous that some posters are rather grossly overstating the flexibility Fury offers because of that.

That's why I also suggested a penalty for stance dancing, such that maintaining, say, Doom (if it's the superior dot) would be at such a Fury cost it wouldn't be worth it, or putting charges on Meta so you either literally can't maintain Doom, or doing so is at the cost of your on-demand burst for burst phases.

I think a Fury cost for entering, or a longer cooldown on re-entering could be used to make Meta more of a commitment to use, but I don't think DoTs should be the reason for it. Molten Core procs would be the reason for that - I still think, Fury costs not withstanding, that they stack too high and last too long.

Edit to clarify: With excessive Fury cost on Soul Fire, I'm absolutely fine with them stacking to infinity and beyond so I don't loose any procs generated during Meta time. I would however rather use them to break up the Slash spam, it's ridiculous that it should be a DPS loss to do so.

[Count Zero]

I think a Fury cost for entering, or a longer cooldown on re-entering could be used to make Meta more of a commitment to use, but I don't think DoTs should be the reason for it. Molten Core procs would be the reason for that - I still think, Fury costs not withstanding, that they stack too high and last too long.

Edit to clarify: With excessive Fury cost on Soul Fire, I'm absolutely fine with them stacking to infinity and beyond so I don't loose any procs generated during Meta time. I would however rather use them to break up the Slash spam, it's ridiculous that it should be a DPS loss to do so.

I have a hard time imagining it's intended to be a dps loss to use Soul Fire during Meta, but I guess we're getting pretty close to the point in beta where dramatic shifts are going to be rarer and rarer. I dunno, maybe lower Fury cost and/or increase mana cost ... ?

Does Molten Core not reduce Fury cost ?

[Jessicka]

I have a hard time imagining it's intended to be a dps loss to use Soul Fire during Meta, but I guess we're getting pretty close to the point in beta where dramatic shifts are going to be rarer and rarer. I dunno, maybe lower Fury cost and/or increase mana cost ... ?

Does Molten Core not reduce Fury cost ?

It does, but it's still exorbitant. Absolutely ridiculous when you consider Pyroblast is made a free cast altogether.

[Count Zero]

It does, but it's still exorbitant.

Okie, I just checked the tooltip on wowdb and it didn't mention Fury, so I was curious.

They could tinker with the Molten Core cost reduction ... just change the tooltip to read "reduces the cost of Soul Fire", have it do less for mana than Fury ... or something.

[xskarma]

I tried Demo for the first time in a few weeks again, and I must say it's rather silly right now. You have to hop in and out of meta to keep your dots up, you have to NOT use your Soul Fire in Meta AND you need to make sure you have your auto attack turned on. All very, very unintuitive when you first try the spec. In order to even be close to potential you need to go to a thrid party site and look it up. Not what Blizz intended. I hope they are going to spend some time ironing out the lumps, cause this Demo playstyle is not going to be picked up by many I fear.

EDIT: on the whole though it's still a fun spec to play because of hopping into Meta and changing it up. Even without a damage increase to your playstyle, it feels good to do so. I would hope they make sure it's a damage increase too though xD

[Deleted]

The Fury system as applied on Beta achieves the same effect to be fair.

Yeah, if they are finally able to adjust the fury costs right. Atm we are burning our fury way to quick while AoEing and even quicker during heroism which wouldn´t be a problem if fury would only be a duration increasing ressource. It seems that it is a bit too difficult to find the right balance between fury costs and and damage for a "stance" that only lasts about 15 seconds. I guess it would just be a lot easier to "fix" demos gameplay if they would only have to concentrate on the damage numbers

[Jessicka]

If you blow Imps, Service and just use Demonic Slash Meta will last about 40s. That duration feels fine, but spamming Slash which both looks (yeah, the animation is a silver melee 'slash' effect, which at range looks really warped) and feels like a relic of the abandoned pre-open Beta model of melee Meta for that duration is mind numbing in it's idiocy. Having Touch of Chaos as an autoattack spamming away with a wanding animation at the same time is equally out of place.

You're right though to say getting Soul Fire used during Meta is just a matter of balancing numbers, and that includes the duration and number of charges of Molten Core that can be held.

[Deleted]

If you blow Imps, Service and just use Demonic Slash Meta will last about 40s.

If they wanted us to only use demonic slash during meta, there would be no reason that molten core reduces the fury costs of soulfire, so i guess they will buff soulfires damage or reduce its fury costs a bit. That combined with bloodlust or other haste effects like trinkets or boss mechanics (alysrazar for example) would decrease the duration of meta even more, compared to a duration based fury system which would be scaling way better with haste


edit:
@grimoire of service: just found this in simcrafts priority list:

grimoire_of_sacrifice
summon_felguard,if=buff.grimoire_of_sacrifice.stack<2

hoping this will never go live...

[Zinnin]

edit:
@grimoire of service: just found this in simcrafts priority list:

You missed

summon_felguard,if=buff.metamorphosis.down&buff.demonic_rebirth.up&buff.demonic_rebirth.re mains<3

When you sack your pet with the sac talent it procs demonic rebirth which will be up everytime you sac it for the extra damage. If you look at the spent time graph, it is never actually hard casting a pet.