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  1. #401
    Moderator Zinnin's Avatar
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    Fury might have been sold to you has a "time-limiter" on meta, but I never, ever saw it that way and I don't see why anyone would assume that it was for that. I never saw meta as a "major dps cooldown" in mists, because it isn't a cooldown. It makes no sense mechanic wise. If you can use meta whenever you want, there is nothing to gain from using it correctly, so why have it.

    I have always seen Demo as the 'cool-down' spec (it just happens that we get to use a chunk of fury with our cooldowns), and I think this enhances gameplay over what it is now. Right now we have that awesome burst every 2ish minutes, maybe a little less if we are lucky and then worry about nothing really in between that. On beta we still have that awesome burst every 2minutes, but now we actually having something to pay attention to in between the burst periods.

    I have been running as many random ass sims having it pop meta at different times, with the only constant being the one long meta with DS and while it might be a slight dps loss, its far more flexible then not being able to do it at all, which is what we have on live with meta.

    Overall I just don't agree with the opinion that we didn't gain flexibility in the MoP demo design.

    As for talking about AoE, the only reason I am is because it is one of the few 'triggers' that would cause a player to sway from their single target tunnel vision, I am not saying blizzards AoE design for demo right now is any good at all, because I'll agree, it is complete crap.

    To the few posts that are complaining with having to manage fury and mana...have you played in the last build? Mana it totally better then it was a few builds ago when it was an issue.
    Last edited by Zinnin; 2012-06-09 at 12:59 AM.

  2. #402
    I can't tell what it is that you're looking for to rock your world, Jessicka, but long cooldowns are actually pretty flexible things.

    As long as you get the same # of cooldowns within a fight, it doesnt matter if you delay them or not.

    1 min cooldown = 5 per 5 min fight. As long as your total delay over the course of the fight is < cooldown - aura duration, you don't lose anything.

    Stacking cooldowns is a min-maxer, bursty efficiency boost. You can ignore it, lose DPS and still not be shit. Sure, great players can and will squeek every bit out of juice out of it.

    Then *pro* min-maxers will try to sync up their timings to the rest of the fight. Meta's "cooldown" is hyper flexible so that you can consistently overlap its maximum duration with the optimum times to throw out of a lot of DPS due to fight mechanics.

    You're fighting a losing battle here by getting hung up on this. Really, why is this point so important to you?

  3. #403
    So we're back to the 2 minute cooldown spec of 4.2 you described as:
    Quote Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
    I would argue that the existing gameplay of "blow everything on the pull, if you fuck up you've failed your group" is far more retarded, less forgiving and less rewarding.
    Ok, that's fair enough. But why do we need Fury for that? Enhancement Shaman manage without, and we managed in 4.2 and in Wrath without. What is it's purpose other than something to do because so many of our spells have been removed from our rotation?

    All it's doing now is that burn and refreshing Doom and if you want to max it, Corruption too. That's not really a decision because you can't hold off Doom or Corruption without loosing DPS. We're commited to that 30s or 1min cycle by our DoTs, and thanks to the cooldown on re-entering Meta there isn't any real scope for using it on trinket procs and vulnerabilities; those things where player skill should be a deciding factor. It even diminishes the capability of holding back those very timed cooldowns that have that limited flexibility.

    That leaves us in effect with short, 10-15s windows of "flexibility" either side of a Corruption refresh, exactly the sort of micro management you seemed earlier at pains to tell us the spec is not about, but are now seeming quite happy that it is.

    It's troubling when even proponents of the spec as-is can't seem to make up their mind about what it's meant to be.

    Edit: I'll reiterrate.
    - Both DoTs need to be castable regardless of stance.
    - There is no harm in those DoTs not benefitting from Meta, or even Mastery at all. I think we're actually in a minority of specs whos Mastery does at present effect all our abilities.

    This will give us the flexibility we need between burn phases, where the best players can still exploit vulnerabilities and trinket procs for when to use excess Fury or play to the fight to show their higher level of skill than those who just burn all their Fury the moment they cap, sit capped until DS is available, or just burn Fury on the basis they're capped, but save enough for the later burn. It's still a decent amount to manage and prove ones worth, especially alongside Molten Core charges, which seems more like that mid-ground you're shooting for.

  4. #404
    Jessicka and Inactivity:

    You should consider other types of gameplay other than hardcore raiding, as much as you hate it, there is PvP and casual dungeon, questing, too.

    This is where demonology offers great flexibility, in these settings you CANT line up every cooldown perfectly, and this is where the spec currently shines.

    Why all the specs should be raid boss oriented? Demo has been the worst PvP spec in the game since forever, is it too much to ask that you 2 (and the other hardcore raiders) consider our playstyle at least for a second?

    If demonic-slash had a cast time or if moltencore was the way to go for meta, the spec will then become 100% useless in PvP as it is now.

    What is the problem with spamming instant cast for 30 seconds every 2 minutes? just because it is different than spamming shadowbolt you freak out , you are used to the same boring mechanics, even if you had to sacrifice the obvious benefits like insane mobility.

    2 things most of us (PvPers and PvErs) agree (i think) are:

    - dslash, spamming only one button in meta may be too monotonous.
    - DOOM only available in meta is horrible.

    On a side note, why is shadowbolt the only rotational nuke that has 2.5s cast although it hits like a wet noodle? shouldnt we push for it to be changed to 2 seconds?
    Last edited by darthades; 2012-06-09 at 02:53 PM.

  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by darthades View Post
    Jessicka and Inactivity:

    You should consider other types of gameplay other than hardcore raiding, as much as you hate it, there is PvP and casual dungeon, questing, too.

    This is where demonology offers great flexibility, in these settings you CANT line up every cooldown perfectly, and this is where the spec currently shines.

    Why all the specs should be raid boss oriented? Demo has been the worst PvP spec in the game since forever, is it too much to ask that you 2 (and the other hardcore raiders) consider our playstyle at least for a second?

    If demonic-slash had a cast time or if moltencore was the way to go for meta, the spec will then become 100% useless in PvP as it is now.

    What is the problem with spamming instant cast for 30 seconds every 2 minutes? just because it is different than spamming shadowbolt you freak out , you are used to the same boring mechanics, even if you had to sacrifice the obvious benefits like insane mobility.
    Giving so much benefits to metamorphosis just creates a huge gap between normal and demon form in PvP. It makes you great while in meta, but shit while in caster form. More mobility should be put into normal form, and some stripped from meta, otherwise it just isn't fair when you're putting immense pressure on enemies with instant, unstoppable nukes, inevitable and strong auras, increased resistance and high mobility.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    You may be on to something here... GC claimed Ret Paladins killed his parents. Could it be that Warlocks drained Celas' dog soul?

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    Giving so much benefits to metamorphosis just creates a huge gap between normal and demon form in PvP. It makes you great while in meta, but shit while in caster form. More mobility should be put into normal form, and some stripped from meta, otherwise it just isn't fair when you're putting immense pressure on enemies with instant, unstoppable nukes, inevitable and strong auras, increased resistance and high mobility.
    So much pressure? Demo doesnt have snares or roots, in arena it can be easily LOSed or healed through, the burst is not even comparable to Frost mages or rogues similar PvP kings.

    The instant cast prowress of meta is in compensation for having ridiculous long cast times while in caster form and no mobility/kiting capabilities.

  7. #407
    I suspect Dark Apotheosis may very well be more viable than normal Meta, in pvp. Although I know next-to-nothing about pvp and I'm just speculating wildly, I have to imagine building up Fury in Arena will somewhat of a pita.

    Although, easier than building up Embers for Destro, I guess : /

  8. #408
    Moderator Zinnin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    All it's doing now is that burn and refreshing Doom and if you want to max it, Corruption too. That's not really a decision because you can't hold off Doom or Corruption without loosing DPS. We're commited to that 30s or 1min cycle by our DoTs, and thanks to the cooldown on re-entering Meta there isn't any real scope for using it on trinket procs and vulnerabilities; those things where player skill should be a deciding factor. It even diminishes the capability of holding back those very timed cooldowns that have that limited flexibility.
    Except for you know..you can hold off, the only ability you HAVE to go into meta for is Doom, just because there is a bonus to be gained from refreshing corruption in meta doesn't mean you HAVE to do it.

    Right now affliction should in single target cast haunt to keep up SE and the Haunt debuff, that doesn't mean they have to cast haunt every 8 seconds in every scenario, it just means that it is the best thing to do in the single target scenario. Things like AoE you let it drop off, or maybe an add is about to spawn in 5 seconds so instead you don't cast haunt so you can soul swap haunt to get some more burst on that add.

    Just because there is a best way to do things on a patchwerk example, doesn't mean there isn't flexibility in the spec. Also, you can still react to things like procs, or whatever else you want, you just need to know when they are. Because of the fact you aren't actually pressing the corruption button you aren't losing dps by wasting globals refreshing it early, as long as you have the excess fury for it. So lets say you see that awesome trinket proc that has a 90s cooldown is going to come up in 40s, refresh your corruption when it has 10-15s remaining instead of 3-4s and bam, you just lined up your fury with that cooldown.

    The spec is all about planning and thinking about fury usage, you WILL NOT get a good feeling for the spec if you thing that you can sit there and try to patchwerk every scenario.

    Sure MoP demo is not a spec that is flexible if you are not planning ahead, but if you do actually plan ahead for more then 10-15s (which in pve is fairly easy to do because nearly everything is on some sort of timer) then the spec has quite a bit flexibility.

    I suspect Dark Apotheosis may very well be more viable than normal Meta, in pvp. Although I know next-to-nothing about pvp and I'm just speculating wildly, I have to imagine building up Fury in Arena will somewhat of a pita.
    I played a few battlegrounds and did a few duels as Demo about a week or so ago and decided that DA will have plenty of situational use in pvp, there is no denying that but It isn't going to be more viable in every scenario. The burst that meta can dish out is pretty amazing and between fel guard stun, service stun, our new shiny knockback that actually knocks things back more then 2 yards you can put a decent amount of space between you and your opponent. I suspect that both demo and destro will be casting a lot of fel flames in arena and pvp in general.

  9. #409
    I played a few battlegrounds and did a few duels as Demo about a week or so ago and decided that DA will have plenty of situational use in pvp, there is no denying that but It isn't going to be more viable in every scenario. The burst that meta can dish out is pretty amazing and between fel guard stun, service stun, our new shiny knockback that actually knocks things back more then 2 yards you can put a decent amount of space between you and your opponent. I suspect that both demo and destro will be casting a lot of fel flames in arena and pvp in general.
    Felflame at 6% mana is worrysome. =( OOM in 20 seconds or so

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by darthades View Post
    So much pressure? Demo doesnt have snares or roots, in arena it can be easily LOSed or healed through, the burst is not even comparable to Frost mages or rogues similar PvP kings.

    The instant cast prowress of meta is in compensation for having ridiculous long cast times while in caster form and no mobility/kiting capabilities.
    I'm pretty sure that there's a glyph that gives a slowing component to shadowflame.
    Also, we're not talking about current Beta numbers (which are meaningless), we're talking about the perception of the spec and how it will end up when numbers get balanced.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    You may be on to something here... GC claimed Ret Paladins killed his parents. Could it be that Warlocks drained Celas' dog soul?

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    I'm pretty sure that there's a glyph that gives a slowing component to shadowflame.
    Also, we're not talking about current Beta numbers (which are meaningless), we're talking about the perception of the spec and how it will end up when numbers get balanced.
    shadowflame snare is only 30%, thats the same as nothing in PvP.

    And i am talking about final numbers, meta instant casts wont be overpowered at all, it is avoidable and healable, is not burst, it is consintent pressure, the same kind hunters have (slighly worst)

    Looks like you are using PvP as an excuse to add cast time to meta just because you dont like instants? lol

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by darthades View Post
    Jessicka and Inactivity:

    You should consider other types of gameplay other than hardcore raiding, as much as you hate it, there is PvP and casual dungeon, questing, too.

    This is where demonology offers great flexibility, in these settings you CANT line up every cooldown perfectly, and this is where the spec currently shines.

    Why all the specs should be raid boss oriented? Demo has been the worst PvP spec in the game since forever, is it too much to ask that you 2 (and the other hardcore raiders) consider our playstyle at least for a second?

    If demonic-slash had a cast time or if moltencore was the way to go for meta, the spec will then become 100% useless in PvP as it is now.

    What is the problem with spamming instant cast for 30 seconds every 2 minutes? just because it is different than spamming shadowbolt you freak out , you are used to the same boring mechanics, even if you had to sacrifice the obvious benefits like insane mobility.

    2 things most of us (PvPers and PvErs) agree (i think) are:

    - dslash, spamming only one button in meta may be too monotonous.
    - DOOM only available in meta is horrible.

    On a side note, why is shadowbolt the only rotational nuke that has 2.5s cast although it hits like a wet noodle? shouldnt we push for it to be changed to 2 seconds?
    IIRC, SL/SL warlocks were the gods of TBC, and they were Demo locks. Just sayin'.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by darthades View Post
    shadowflame snare is only 30%, thats the same as nothing in PvP.

    And i am talking about final numbers, meta instant casts wont be overpowered at all, it is avoidable and healable, is not burst, it is consintent pressure, the same kind hunters have (slighly worst)

    Looks like you are using PvP as an excuse to add cast time to meta just because you dont like instants? lol
    I'm sure there's a glyph that increases the snare at the cost of increased cooldown or something.
    Also, you've completely disregarded all the other elements of pressure that I've presented in addition to the solutions that I have come up with. I didn't even ask that Demonic Slash no longer be instant. I just addressed your concerns about PvP, in which Demonology is plain useless in caster form. All you'll do is generate fury until you can go godmode. So Wild Imps and Fel Flame spam, yay.
    But yeah thanks for being so nice after I tried to reassure you and enter in an in-depth analysis of the possible state of demonology, I bet you take lots of time to read what people are actually posting.

    As for DA, it will simply become a defensive cooldown that you might pop when in need of mobility or sustained defense (like a long burst phase from enemies).

    And yes, it seems like Shadow Bolt and Incinerate will become obsolete in PvP since casting which implies LoS, interrupts and reduced mobility aren't worth it. The two specs seem to find their true power in their nukes (Chaos Bolt and Metamorphosis). Never thought I would see anything worse than Icelance spam. Thank you Blizzard, yet another common point with mages!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    You may be on to something here... GC claimed Ret Paladins killed his parents. Could it be that Warlocks drained Celas' dog soul?

  14. #414
    Moderator Zinnin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthades View Post
    Felflame at 6% mana is worrysome. =( OOM in 20 seconds or so
    Please get on beta and test things before spouting numbers that are nowhere near true. Since you didn't this time I took the liberty of testing it out for you.

    Keeping Doom and Corruption up the whole time, pressing hand of guldan when available and then just generally spamming fel flame or demonic slash until I had 0 resources left, I went 1 minute 50s before I was unable to cast anymore. Got basically the same time on my second test. Once I'm completely oom it something like a life tap once every 25-30s, that really isn't bad at all.

    In general as demo you do not have to press life tap very often at all, in simcraft it is something like 3.5% of your overall casting time, and fel flame isn't that much more costly then shadow bolt where it will have an insane impact on your mana.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    I'm sure there's a glyph that increases the snare at the cost of increased cooldown or something.
    Also, you've completely disregarded all the other elements of pressure that I've presented in addition to the solutions that I have come up with. I didn't even ask that Demonic Slash no longer be instant. I just addressed your concerns about PvP, in which Demonology is plain useless in caster form. All you'll do is generate fury until you can go godmode. So Wild Imps and Fel Flame spam, yay.
    But yeah thanks for being so nice after I tried to reassure you and enter in an in-depth analysis of the possible state of demonology, I bet you take lots of time to read what people are actually posting.

    As for DA, it will simply become a defensive cooldown that you might pop when in need of mobility or sustained defense (like a long burst phase from enemies).

    And yes, it seems like Shadow Bolt and Incinerate will become obsolete in PvP since casting which implies LoS, interrupts and reduced mobility aren't worth it. The two specs seem to find their true power in their nukes (Chaos Bolt and Metamorphosis). Never thought I would see anything worse than Icelance spam. Thank you Blizzard, yet another common point with mages!
    That glyph is completely useless since it removes the HOG charges (lol not worth at all)

    Yea, DA damage is nonexistant, but it will be very usefull as a defensive stance.

    I dont think caster form is that bad, it is inferior to any other caster but at least it builts fury consistently, drainlife/felflame spam, shadowbolt will be "rarely" used.

    You complain about icelance spam mode but it is the only way warlock can function in PvP, we dont have half of mage's toolkit vs melee.

    If they remove instant cast spam while in meta, then it becomes the worst PvP spec in the game, 100% guaranted as simple as that, and there is not much Blizz can do to improve caster form in compensation.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by darthades View Post
    That glyph is completely useless since it removes the HOG charges (lol not worth at all)

    Yea, DA damage is nonexistant, but it will be very usefull as a defensive stance.

    I dont think caster form is that bad, it is inferior to any other caster but at least it builts fury consistently, drainlife/felflame spam, shadowbolt will be "rarely" used.

    You complain about icelance spam mode but it is the only way warlock can function in PvP, we dont have half of mage's toolkit vs melee.

    If they remove instant cast spam while in meta, then it becomes the worst PvP spec in the game, 100% guaranted as simple as that, and there is not much Blizz can do to improve caster form in compensation.
    Again, you do not take the time to read what people write.
    Also, I don't see how losing charges makes it not worth it, why would you want charges so badly when the whole point of caster mode is to gain Fury for meta as you put it? Quite the contrary, the glyph would be great in PvP since you'd use the spell on cooldown.
    You also give "facts" that are actually baseless opinions. If you haven't realized, we've been given lots of active defensive goodies in MoP (which also counters the warlock philosophy).
    And thank you for proving my point. Caster form is utter crap, the only point is to get to meta and then the real game starts, which makes us too dependant on demon form.

    And again, I specifically stated that some mobility would be stripped from meta and given to caster form, so as to render the gap smaller, and I DIDN'T PROPOSE TO REMOVE INSTANT DEMONIC SLASH. Got it now?

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    Except for you know..you can hold off, the only ability you HAVE to go into meta for is Doom, just because there is a bonus to be gained from refreshing corruption in meta doesn't mean you HAVE to do it.
    Yet I've said before I do not, because I physically cannot due to the latency of the server being 5000 miles away, benefit from refreshing Corruption using ToC. Hense the entire quote you copied already covered that assumption, and makes clear that I still don't like being forced into Meta every minute just to refresh Doom.

    I don't understand why you're so steadfastly opposed to a quality of life improvement that would serve to enhance and promote exactly the sorts of planned uses of Meta you're banging on about. It's utterly nonsensicle to be demanding roadblocks in a spec built to play in that way. Why protect it on the basis of it raising the skill floor, if, as you keep insisting, it doesn't actually confer that much of a benefit in the first place? It's just a needless impediment to the accessibility of the spec and smacks of elitist protectionism to defend it.

  18. #418
    Moderator Zinnin's Avatar
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    It isn't on the basis of raising the skill floor, its on the basis of maintaining a decent skill ceiling. I am fine with the entry level of playing a spec being somewhat low, I am not fine with being able to perfectly play the spec within minutes of deciding to play demo.

    The reason I am so fine with it is because of the fact it doesn't have an insane benefit so people that aren't good enough aren't fucked and basically just told they cannot play a warlock, which is what happens on live when a mechanic gets to difficult to use. I honestly don't think it is an issue if I want to be able to see a difference in dps between the best players, and the average players. Right now I think that gap is too large, in mists its looking to be right about where it should be, dumb down the effects of being able to min \ max anymore and that gap will be too narrow.

    I don't see being able to meta whenever you want as a quality of life improvement, its simplifying mechanics just for the sake of simplicity. It isn't a roadblock like 3 stacks of SE, or having to hardcast a pet every two minutes, or having to hardcast soul fire every 30 seconds. And it wouldn't 'promote' any sort of planned use because if there is clearly no best use, or best way to spend fury you aren't encouraged to make the 'right' decision, or set aside the correct amount of fury for a situation, you are simply encouraged to just press meta whenever (which actually turns into being required to save it for AoE in every occasion simply because AoE is always going to be higher dps then single target (assuming they fix being able to leave meta when immolation aura is on)). Right now meta will be able to compete with AoE, and wanting to refresh dots will compete with the want for on demand burst for single adds. This leads to your decision being meaningful and not cheap.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by zinnin View Post
    It isn't on the basis of raising the skill floor, its on the basis of maintaining a decent skill ceiling. I am fine with the entry level of playing a spec being somewhat low, I am not fine with being able to perfectly play the spec within minutes of deciding to play demo.

    The reason I am so fine with it is because of the fact it doesn't have an insane benefit so people that aren't good enough aren't fucked and basically just told they cannot play a warlock, which is what happens on live when a mechanic gets to difficult to use. I honestly don't think it is an issue if I want to be able to see a difference in dps between the best players, and the average players. Right now I think that gap is too large, in mists its looking to be right about where it should be, dumb down the effects of being able to min \ max anymore and that gap will be too narrow.

    I don't see being able to meta whenever you want as a quality of life improvement, its simplifying mechanics just for the sake of simplicity. It isn't a roadblock like 3 stacks of SE, or having to hardcast a pet every two minutes, or having to hardcast soul fire every 30 seconds. And it wouldn't 'promote' any sort of planned use because if there is clearly no best use, or best way to spend fury you aren't encouraged to make the 'right' decision, or set aside the correct amount of fury for a situation, you are simply encouraged to just press meta whenever (which actually turns into being required to save it for AoE in every occasion simply because AoE is always going to be higher dps then single target (assuming they fix being able to leave meta when immolation aura is on)). Right now meta will be able to compete with AoE, and wanting to refresh dots will compete with the want for on demand burst for single adds. This leads to your decision being meaningful and not cheap.
    Although I agree about the skillfloor thing, I don't think that having to go into meta every minute to apply a DoT is the right way to go. How is it even related to the spec? Using your most prized spell just to refresh a DoT. Sure there should be a meaningful decision, but not based on such a mechanic (in my opinion).
    Why not add some minor fury dumps in caster form if you think you can do more damage by saving metamorphosis for latter which would no longer consume DF through spells but through its duration?
    Example: You hit 1k fury, but there might be a great AoE phase later on (Yor'shaj black blobs). You start using a certain fury dump (could be pet switching) which you would normally benefit from less than just popping meta. When these AoE packs spawn, you'd have more or less 900-1k fury and would go into meta to burst them down, resulting in higher DPS than just going into demon form before the add phase.
    AoE isn't the only scenario, there are many bosses that take more damage at a certain period of time. In my opinion this makes metamorphosis more of a decision than just "oh I'll go now and dump fury" or "I should refresh Doom".

  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenexis View Post
    Although I agree about the skillfloor thing, I don't think that having to go into meta every minute to apply a DoT is the right way to go. How is it even related to the spec? Using your most prized spell just to refresh a DoT. Sure there should be a meaningful decision, but not based on such a mechanic (in my opinion).
    If you want to sim the best, you go into meta to also refresh corruption. (as with touch of chaos it refreshes) and you simply do a single demonic slash and exit, unless you need to refresh doom at that time. So that is 2 dots you refresh with meta.

    Unless i got that wrong from all the talk back and forth for the past 23 pages.

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