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  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    SB has to be balanced against Metamorphosis
    Fireball is always fireball.
    That is the point, if warlocks have so many extra sources of damage.

    Why do their main nuke needs to have the LONGEST CAST TIME IN MOP + lowest dpct? it is awful design and one of the main reasons the spec is so unpopular in PVP/PvE.
    Last edited by darthades; 2012-06-29 at 04:42 PM.

  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by darthades View Post
    That is the point, if warlocks have so many extra sources of damage.

    Why do their main nuke needs to have the LONGEST CAST TIME IN MOP + lowest dpct? it is awful design and one of the main reasons the spec is so unpopular in PVP/PvE.
    Ummm I'm pretty sure you answered the second part of your post with the first part. Shadowbolt is so weak, BECAUSE there are so many other sources of damage; add in to that the effect of Metamorphosis, and it's pretty easy to see why Shadowbolt has to be balanced to be such a weak nuke. Does it suck for PvP? Yes. Is it fun to have such a weak nuke? No. Is it necessary for number-balancing purposes? Yes.
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  3. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by darthades View Post
    That is the point, if warlocks have so many extra sources of damage.

    Why do their main nuke needs to have the LONGEST CAST TIME IN MOP + lowest dpct? it is awful design and one of the main reasons the spec is so unpopular in PVP/PvE.
    Didn't you just answer your own question in the same post? To have balanced dps a DoT class needs a lower DPET nuke than a "pure" nuking class. I think you are vastly over stating any importance of the cast time of SB to the popularity of the spec... when inc could be the default filler for demo you didn't see thousands moving to the class/spec...
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  4. #644
    Quote Originally Posted by CDShaidar View Post
    I'm pretty sure ~.08*damage gain of an MC proc is < the ~double damage (appears to only double the damage from SP not base 3285->6380 at 90 in my random gear) of the stacked SF
    Didn't edit my post fast enough, but:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    By Hand of Gul’dan, I did indeed mean Shadowflame. However, as you point out, this rolling periodic mechanic interacts rather oddly with debuffs that stack. So, we’re just going to take it off of Shadowflame. Shadowflame will be a simple DoT that can stack, not using this rolling periodic mechanic.

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by CDShaidar View Post
    Didn't you just answer your own question in the same post? To have balanced dps a DoT class needs a lower DPET nuke than a "pure" nuking class. I think you are vastly over stating any importance of the cast time of SB to the popularity of the spec... when inc could be the default filler for demo you didn't see thousands moving to the class/spec...
    Yes, but if it is that weak, it should have at least 2 seconds cast time and dps reduced in compensation, they are lowering the cast times on most caster main nukes, fireball, ablast, etc.

    This relic is staying at 2.5 seconds, the longest cast main nuke of all casters in MOP, longest and weakest.

  6. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by darthades View Post
    Yes, but if it is that weak, it should have at least 2 seconds cast time and dps reduced in compensation, they are lowering the cast times on most caster main nukes, fireball, ablast, etc.

    This relic is staying at 2.5 seconds, the longest cast main nuke of all casters in MOP, longest and weakest.
    It shouldn't, because it's balanced against all our other sources of damage output, if it had a shorter cast time, it would necessarily have to hit less hard because the class can only be permitted a certain level of output overall.

    It's either 15k every 2.5s or 12k every 2s. I'm happy with 2.5s because it actually adds contrast with the 2s Soul Fires and makes those feel much more meaningful.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2012-06-29 at 05:13 PM.

  7. #647
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Didn't edit my post fast enough, but:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    By Hand of Gul’dan, I did indeed mean Shadowflame. However, as you point out, this rolling periodic mechanic interacts rather oddly with debuffs that stack. So, we’re just going to take it off of Shadowflame. Shadowflame will be a simple DoT that can stack, not using this rolling periodic mechanic.
    What they are talking about is the mechanic dots like combustion have where they roll any remaining damage in the dot duration over the next dot. SF will still stack on target and unless they meant that just the movement part will stack, then it still does ~double damage at two stacks.
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  8. #648
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    It shouldn't, because it's balanced against all our other sources of damage output, if it had a shorter cast time, it would necessarily have to hit less hard because the class can only be permitted a certain level of output overall.
    Demo Walrocks are not the only ones with a lot of damage sources, moonkins, fire mages for example have several sources and their main nukes in MOP are 2s and 2.2s casts.

    lower damage faster cast would be more appropiate for the relative power of the nuke.

    PROS:
    mobility, PvP viability, better clippling, flexibility.

    CONS:
    what are the cons? what are your arguments? Why should demo locks have the longest + weakest main nuke in MOP?

  9. #649
    Quote Originally Posted by darthades View Post
    Demo Walrocks are not the only ones with a lot of damage sources, moonkins, fire mages for example have several sources and their main nukes in MOP are 2s and 2.2s casts.

    lower damage faster cast would be more appropiate for the relative power of the nuke.

    PROS:
    mobility, PvP viability, better clippling, flexibility.

    CONS:
    what are the cons? what are your arguments?
    Cons? Balance. Warlocks are balanced around all of those things you list, arbitrarily buffing a class isn't a good idea simply because it contains all "PROS" and no "CONS". Why not 1.5 sec? 1 sec? instant?
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  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by CDShaidar View Post
    Cons? Balance. Warlocks are balanced around all of those things you list, arbitrarily buffing a class isn't a good idea simply because it contains all "PROS" and no "CONS". Why not 1.5 sec? 1 sec? instant?
    because at 1.5, 1, it would not fully benefit from bloodlust and considering the mop tools, 2 seconds cast is a balanced point on both PvE and PvP.

    Are u arguing that 2sec shadowbolt with reduced damage will make locks OP or something?

    Everyone on beta is using the 3 shadowbolt glyph, so the spell doesnt even look like a nuke, more like a dot.

    Why do you dislike the idea of a 2s shadowbolt?
    Last edited by darthades; 2012-06-29 at 05:25 PM.

  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by darthades View Post
    because at 1.5, 1, it would not fully benefit from bloodlust and considering the mop tools, 2 seconds cast is a balanced point on both PvE and PvP.

    Are u arguing that 2sec shadowbolt with reduced damage will make locks OP or something?
    It potentially could yes. Alternately, it could lead the class to be underpowered by not having an ability that could hit for any meaningful damage in one strike.

    Everyone on beta is using the 3 shadowbolt glyph, so the spell doesnt even look like a nuke, more like a dot.
    I'm not using that Glyph... Even so, it doesn't look like a DoT.

    Why do you dislike the idea of a 2s shadowbolt?
    The slow casts make the faster cast of Molten Core Soul Fires feel more meaningful and powerful, and again, allow Meta's instant attacks to feel rather different again so that stance feels different. Cast time is just about the only physical feedback the game can offer that actually differentiates one nuke from another. It's why Heroism/Bloodlust actually buff attack speed rather than Critical Strike chance or is a straight up damage buff - the latter two of which would probably be easier for the developers to balance against considering the hard-cooldown abilities that many classes use, such as Lava Lash, Kill Shot etc.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2012-06-29 at 05:40 PM.

  12. #652
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    The slow casts make the faster cast of Molten Core Soul Fires feel more meaningful and powerful, and again, allow Meta's instant attacks to feel rather different again so that stance feels different. Cast time is just about the physical only feedback the game can offer that actually differentiates one nuke from another. It's why Heroism/Bloodlust actually buff attack speed rather than Critical Strike chance or a straight up damage buff.
    I agree. I have done nearly all the raid testing so far as Demo and never felt like my shadow bolt cast was too long, and that's full reforged for Mastery so it isn't like I have a lot of haste. Warlocks have been using a 2.5s shadow bolt forever now, I see no reason it suddenly should change.

  13. #653
    Quote Originally Posted by darthades View Post
    because at 1.5, 1, it would not fully benefit from bloodlust and considering the mop tools, 2 seconds cast is a balanced point on both PvE and PvP.

    Are u arguing that 2sec shadowbolt with reduced damage will make locks OP or something?

    Everyone on beta is using the 3 shadowbolt glyph, so the spell doesnt even look like a nuke, more like a dot.

    Why do you dislike the idea of a 2s shadowbolt?
    You seem to be arguing that there's only good things about moving from 2.5s to a 2s cast, if that's true then by definition it makes locks better. Some possible bad things that could occur due to a decrease in cast time and proportional decrease in damage of an ability 1) rotation issues with fitting in the correct number of casts between other needed spell casts (right now I am pretty sure that I can fit two 2.5 second SBs while my shadowflame ticks before I need to cast the second stack to roll the increased dot. I know I could not fit in three 2 second SBs) 2) rotations feeling stale due to all fillers having identical cast times just with different damage 3) other abilities getting nerfed to account for increased burst inside a 2 second window. There are many others I could get into...
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  14. #654
    Simple answer as to why it should stay 2.5s, rather than 2.0:

    All the 2.0s nukes cease to benefit from haste (assuming a 1.5s GCD cap) after 33% haste. By contrast, a 2.5s nuke continues to benefit from haste up to 66% haste.

  15. #655
    Scarab Lord Grubjuice's Avatar
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    aren't you supposed to cast Fel Flame in PvP anyway?

  16. #656
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubjuice View Post
    aren't you supposed to cast Fel Flame in PvP anyway?
    no, every PvP viable spec needs to have consistent pressure, even frost mages with their montrous overpowered burst still need to fill the gaps.

    2.5 seconds cast on shadowbolt make the spec frustrating as hell, the enemy can LOS, interrupt, get away from range + we have neither snares/roots nor mobility like all the other casters, on top of that locks in mop dont even have natural haste boost anymore, bye bye darkintent.

    You cant just fill the gaps with felflame, healers will just use instants and will never risk casting because their mates are never going to be in danger outside cooldowns.

  17. #657
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    yeah i really don't know anything about pvp.

    but it seems like you are not really supposed to be doing damage in caster form, caster form is just the period of time during which you build Fury to use Meta and THEN you attack.

    Demo is not not designed to be consistant. its designed to be burst and flee.

    you get 10 fury per second wether use you SB, Fel Flame or Drain Life as a filler. the damage you do is so weak in all three cases it doesn't really matter.
    Last edited by Grubjuice; 2012-06-29 at 06:55 PM.

  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by Torq View Post
    Simple answer as to why it should stay 2.5s, rather than 2.0:

    All the 2.0s nukes cease to benefit from haste (assuming a 1.5s GCD cap) after 33% haste. By contrast, a 2.5s nuke continues to benefit from haste up to 66% haste.
    Does haste no longer affect GCD?

    Otherwise, 2.0s nukes benefit up to 100% haste, and 2.5 up to 150% haste.

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by darthades View Post
    no, every PvP viable spec needs to have consistent pressure, even frost mages with their montrous overpowered burst still need to fill the gaps.

    2.5 seconds cast on shadowbolt make the spec frustrating as hell, the enemy can LOS, interrupt, get away from range + we have neither snares/roots nor mobility like all the other casters, on top of that locks in mop dont even have natural haste boost anymore, bye bye darkintent.

    You cant just fill the gaps with felflame, healers will just use instants and will never risk casting because their mates are never going to be in danger outside cooldowns.
    I don't understand your arguments at all. Simply saying it's better isn't a valid reason for a change to be made... No one would argue that a 2 second cast time isn't shorter than a 2.5 second one. How is HoG not a snare exactly?
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  20. #660
    Quote Originally Posted by Inactivity View Post
    Does haste no longer affect GCD?

    Otherwise, 2.0s nukes benefit up to 100% haste, and 2.5 up to 150% haste.
    Does haste lower GCD to 1s still? I couldn't remember, nor could I find it documented anywhere.

    If so, then yeah, what you said.

    Regardless, it still highlights how little benefit DS (now ToC) actually gets from haste... that is to say none, aside from additional fury generation outside of Meta.

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